Discuss Immersion Heater - PV electricity in the Central Heating Systems area at ElectriciansForums.net

You can see how that burst mode by definition will fire at full power for a time period? Have you accurately measured the current at the meter with a scope or with a phase referenced meter? The reason you may have not seen it is because you may have had a generous supply from the pv at the time. You will see a draw from the grid under more difficult conditions i.e. when you only have a couple of hundred watts to spare from the pv and you then load up your immersion heater.
 
Tell me more Mr Millerman, don't suppose it's called an EMMA? link me to your website i may be a mass customer. Before you change your tank and mess about with it have you tried leaving your immersion turned on and seeing if it heats up? because you might be surprised that in 6 hours it will be hot enough to have a shower etc that is if you just want a tank full of water. try it.
 
Like a drill speed controller or light dimmer a phase angle controlled immersion is going to radiate some electrical interference, only worse because of the larger current and long cable between the immersion and fuse box. What sort of suppression is going to be needed to stop interference with say radios and TVs?

I have been reading up about this issue. Initially I thought it wasn't a problem but with further investigation the triac requires some form of suppression. The particular model I have chosen turns out to have a built in snubber in the package ( 10PCV2425 crydom I contacted tech support at Crydom today ) this is why I haven't seen any evidence on interference. This happens to be the same unit that the EMMA uses so it has pedigree. :- ) As an update from my previous notes I have decided to fit a Henley block and an extra 2 way dist board to make the current measurements easier as I was struggeling to fit all my wires through the current coil. This will be a much neater installation.
 
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Okay firstly BigBob1 i do leave the immersion switch on. It will not work unless there is enough spare solar power.
Yes some days the tank doesn't get very warm (dull days) but every bit of heat input from the solar reduces the amount of gas needed to riase the water temperature to the desired setpoint. Overall the water temperature has been fine. The unit is not an EMMA similiar but not the same. Give me a ring to discuss further if you wish.(07717723352)send txt message first don't answer unknown numbers.

Quote" As an update from my previous notes I have decided to fit a Henley block and an extra 2 way dist board to make the current measurements easier as I was struggeling to fit all my wires through the current coil. This will be a much neater installation." ----- Its the only way really
 
Hello - I found this wonderful thread having had the same immersion heater idea and having searched around. I haven't got panels yet but one installer says they always put in a separate RCD-protected consumer unit just for the inverter in order not to infringe on Part P if the existing wiring doesn't comply. A bit more material cost but seems like a good idea, and I've got a Henley block between my meter and CU anyway so it's easy for them. I have an old electric shower feed to the loft which I hope they can use; I would have thought that if it tests out OK then it would be fine, but I am not qualified so I don't know.

I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned the case of their existing meter being analogue. I know these can theoretically go backwards but I wondered if they had some sort of ratchet to prevent it. My meter was replaced in late 2008 with another analogue one, and the installer said that it would indeed go backwards. Could I really therefore be paid three times for some of what the panels generate? I presumably won't have the trouble/fun of making an immersion heater controller as a result. I wouldn't be surprised if the supplier, when informed of the solar installation, doesn't immediately whip out the analogue meter and replace it with a digital one.
 
Hi Suntrap
Yes your meter will go backwards during the day then forwards at night. Unfortunately you are under obligation to inform your supplier and they will change it after a month or so. My next door neighbor has this exact situation. his meter reading at the end of the month is less than when he started. So until it is changed there is no benefit to add a water heater circuit, but nothing like being prepared :- )
 
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Thanks for that - so informing them does more than just "keeping the grid balanced" :smartass:. They would think I'd been bypassing the meter otherwise, anyway. If the inverter has a separate CU, I presume that will make it easier to fit current transformers.

I've noticed someone has written Linux software for getting data from Aurora inverters (RS232/RS485). Their desktop monitor is pretty but very expensive. At some stage I want to play around with plug computers and this could log the data.
 
If a Phase Angle Controller is able to restrict the amount of recorded power usage, would a simple series diode result in a 50% power reduction.
ie. does the electricity meter measure power usage over 180 or 360 degrees of the mains cycle??
 
I would say yes, it records real power consumption, multiplying volts by amps continuously. That's what an analogue one does and a digital one would be designed behave the same or it would be naughty. Non-domestic meters measure VA rather than watts, encouraging customers to correct their own power factor/current waveforms.
 
I am very pleased to say that I have completed my system. I have heated the top part of my tank very quickly. ( only as deep as the length of the immersion heater ) I raised water temp 10 deg before the solar water system had got up to temperature and started to circulate. This was important as some people have said this system won’t work quickly enough and this proved it is much faster than the water type system. Also to confirm that I have had NO interference generated by the triac effecting either the radio or tv (10pcv2425 contains a snubber circuit ). This system, just to confirm doesn’t use an expensive plc and follows the spare power level in an analogue way NOT waiting until there is a spare 1,2 or 3 kw before switching on in steps and thus wasting potential energy. It runs as soon as there is a spare 100 watts and continues to feed all the way up to full power 3kw. All it contains is a small comparison circuit made from 2 opamps ( 741, 75p each ). I triac crydom 10pcv2425 ( just bought one on eBay for £12 ) . A power supply that provides -12 0 +12 vdc, 2 current coils from LEM model AT20B10 ( £ 54 inc vat for the two ). I have fitted and extra dist board with a Henley block to separate the measurements. I now need to find a nice box to put it all in and maybe add a couple of voltage meters form eBay just to make it very easy to see what power is being supplied. The future improvements would now be to add another heating element to the bottom of the tank and a relay circuit to switch between the elements once the top one is up to temp. I hope this will encourage some of you to develop your system. It just goes to show there are several routes to achieve free hot water. :- )
 
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Well done on getting it going and it would be great to see a circuit diagram. However, one thing concerns me slightly:

Also to confirm that I have had NO interference generated by the triac effecting either the radio or tv (10pcv2425 contains a snubber circuit ).

I believe a snubber network is primarily to prevent the triac being damaged by high voltage ringing when it switches off. It is not sufficient to provide proper filtering of electromagnetic interference - for this you need a series inductor at least, as contained in light dimmers. You might not get interference on FM radio or TV, but you are very likely to hear it in MW or LW transmissons and it may become apparent on FM and TV when the wanted signal is weak.
 
Well done on getting it going and it would be great to see a circuit diagram. However, one thing concerns me slightly:



I believe a snubber network is primarily to prevent the triac being damaged by high voltage ringing when it switches off. It is not sufficient to provide proper filtering of electromagnetic interference - for this you need a series inductor at least, as contained in light dimmers. You might not get interference on FM radio or TV, but you are very likely to hear it in MW or LW transmissons and it may become apparent on FM and TV when the wanted signal is weak.

Yes this might be the case but IF there is some interferance I will add a circuit to resolve it. SO far so good :- ) No problems.

Hey Suntrap have you actually experienced any problems with interferance? As I havent seen any thing yet.
 
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I have experienced problems with interference from cheap switch-mode power supplies imported straight from China, which don't have input filters fitted - they wouldn't be allowed under EU emissions regulations. I haven't built anything like this yet so can't comment, but it may be that you are causing interference to your neighbours' equipment which you don't know about and which your neighbours won't know the source of. It could disrupt ADSL communications as this uses the lower frequency range. I can imagine that your circuit may severely disrupt power-line networking equipment, but that is very controversial with radio amateurs because it causes interference problems of its own!
 
Hi Suntrap. Well today I had the tv on the radio and my wireless router. No problem at all. I understand your concern and I will watch it very carefully. Do you have any suggestions for adding some protection? I would be happy to add it even if it wasn't required just to be on the safe side.
 
I guess you'd look at circuits for light dimmers and see what they use. Unfortunately you'd need quite a hefty inductor to handle 13A though.
 
Hi Suntrap
. Unfortunately you are under obligation to inform your supplier and they will change it after a month or so. :- )

My parents have had their system since last december. the electricity board came out and installed an isolator on the instructions given to them from the solar company. As of now they still have the old analogue meter good luck to them.
 
I am also very interested in using an immersion heater to dump spare solar PV. But it has been some years since I dabbled in circuit building, another call for a circuit diagram !
I'm stuck on the first hurdle though, detecting current in from solar inverter and in from the grid, comparison. I already use a clamp transformer that sends a wireless signal to a monitor. What it doesn't know is the direction of power. For example on the grid tails it reads 3KW if say the kettle is on (cloudy day), or 3KW on a sunny day sending power to the grid, How does a transformer know the direction of current ?
 
For those of you who are considering the 1kW immersion heater option, I have just completed my install using the Current Cost CT's suggested by paulreed and Picaxe 18M2 controller. My panels are a 4kW installation but as this is a maximum capability I thought it better to use the 1kW heater as it was more likely to be useful.

The CT interface design can be found in post #14 at the following location. The value of R1 needs to be changed to around 47 ohm if using the Current Cost CT's.
Mesuring currents on residentials conexions with my PICAXE - Page 2

The rest of the design uses standard interface circuits described in section 3 of the PICAXE manual to switch a relay on an off depending on the power being generated, if you use a project board the darlington pair in this terface is already on the ULN2803A chip supplied with the board.

The CT's are clamped on the inverter and the house load tails and monitor the generation and house load constantly.

Once the inputs have been calibrated, i.e. noting the values being written to the variables from the READADC10 inputs the code can be written to ensure the heater is switched on when there is sufficient surplus power being generated. I need to do a bit more work on the coding but it is working fine and heats sufficient water for our needs on most days. I switch the heater off after about an hour to avoid overuse of the heater thermostat.

A copy of the code in current use is set out below, it looks much neater in the programmer but most of the TABS have been stripped out by the editor this forum uses;

main:
readadc10 C.0,w0 ;Read C.0 value and write it to w0
readadc10 C.1,w1 ;Read C.1 value and write it to w1
if w0 > 10 then
goto test ;when w0 is greater than 10 goto test sub procedure
endif
if w0 = 0 then
goto byebye ;when w0 is zero goto byebye sub procedure
endif

pause 500 ;wait 0.5 seconds
goto main ;go to start

test: ;make sub procedure called test
readadc10 C.0,w0 ;Read C.0 value and write it to w0
readadc10 C.1,w1 ;Read C.1 value and write it to w1
let w2 = w1 + 3 ;add equivalent of 1kW to value of w1 to evaluate current to power
;heater and write to w2.
if w3 = 3600 then
goto byebye2 ;when w3 is 360 goto byebye2 sub procedure because the heater has been on for an hour
endif

if w0 > 10 and w2 < 8 then
goto sw_on ;when w0 is greater than w2 goto sw_on sub procedure
endif
goto main ;go to start

byebye: ;make sub procedure called byebye
let w3 = 0 ;reset the w3 variable to zero
sleep 130 ;sleep for approx 5 minutes
goto main ;go to start

byebye2: ;make sub procedure called byebye2
sleep 6240 ;sleep for approx 4 hours
let w3 = 0 ;reset the w3 variable to zero
goto main ;go to start
sw_on: ;make sub procedure called sw_on
do
high B.4 ;LED on
high B.5 ;Relay On
high B.6 ;Relay On
pause 1000 ;pause 1 second
inc w3 ;increment variable w3
readadc10 C.0,w0 ;Read C.0 value and write it to w0
readadc10 C.1,w1 ;Read C.1 value and write it to w1
if w0 <= w1 then exit ;exit from loop if generated power is less than load
if w0 < 10 then exit ;exit from loop if w0 falls below 10
loop while w3 < 3600 ;loop while b3 is less than 3600 which should equate to 60 minutes
low B.4 ;LED off
low B.5 ;Relay off
low B.6 ;Relay off

goto main ;loopback to start.

Hope this is of use. Thanks to paulreed who set me off on this project following his original post.
 
For some time, since before coming across this thread, I have been designing an immersion controller for my 4kW PV system. I now have it finished and have built a few for family and friends. Seeing as the professional firms have not come up with a sensible product that is affordable please send me a private message if anyone wants to buy one. It is available as a kit or ready built. I am a Chartered Engineer so the design is hopefully quite professional but ultimately the risk is yours if you want to fit one.


It functions similar to the ones mentioned here, i.e. it controls the power into the immersion to ensure that export power is reduced to near zero (as long as the hot water is not up to temperature already). But it uses simpler components to reduce the cost and size, e.g. instead of an expensive PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) it has a small PCB that I make with a microprocessor and has less connections into the house electrics; this does not reduce its performance. It is designed for a 3kW or less immersion but would probably work up 10kW, although I have not tested that. Two or three 3kW immersions in parallel should be OK. It does not rely on an always on external PC either, which would burn lots of watts. No need to purchase an expensive <3kW immersion.
 
I'm going to need something - I just enquired with npower about registering my PV system and they immediately arranged a date for installing a back-stop meter :-( I know an earlier poster (and also my installer) said that it hadn't happened with them (/clients), but I think the electricity companies are now getting their act together and the likelyhood of your meter not being replaced is diminishing.
 
I have a rotary meter of perhaps 10 year old vintage. It does not go backwards or only does so extremely slightly. But when an electricity board electrician came around to look at something else he was most insistent I tell the board that I have PV and get the meter changed. I have not bothered to do so.
 
Interesting that your analogue meter doesn't go backwards - maybe some of them have mechanical clutches to prevent that?

Are you not claiming a FIT then? As far as I know, the only way of getting it is via your electricity supplier.
 
It's good to hear that a number of you have been successful in building these devices, as I am sure that they will pay for themselves many times over!
Mine it still notching up kwh's and even a little bright weather is enough to meet our hot water demands (not today though!).
I too have been busy, and have bought some microprocessors, learnt C++ programming language (albeit basic), and am working on version 2, which is nearing completion.
Version 2 is much more accurate than my old version as it calculates power by measuring both current and voltage 1000 times a second and also compensates for different power factors, has a LCD display which shows useful information via a menu system, multiple outputs, and is upgradeable (I keep thinking of improvements!).
The LCD display shows; instant solar kw, instant mains kw, solar kwh per 24hr period, mains voltage, and mains power factor.
I have a working version on a breadboard, and am just completing one on a PCB to fit into a case. Once it's finished I'll post some photos.
 
Yes I believe some have these clutches. After a slight backwards movement (fraction of a turn) my clutch engages.

It’s a question of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. One part of EON pays my FIT payments. But the supply side does not seem to been told that I have PV. Or maybe it’s because the actual utility company who provided the meter is not EON but Southern in my case. My PV supplier says that in some utilities there is an automatic tie up so they will tell you that you need a new meter, particularly if your readings go down.
 
My Aurora inverter has an RS485 interface whose protocol is actually known, and someone has written Linux software to interrogate it, to get instantaneous output figures as well as the last 8640 readings at 10-second intervals. A USB-RS485 converter is less than £10 from China via eBay (or £60 from the manufacturer!). Not the most elegant or power-efficient for this application but great for general tinkering.
 
My Aurora inverter has an RS485 interface whose protocol is actually known, and someone has written Linux software to interrogate it, to get instantaneous output figures .

Does not solve the need to measure consumed power too if controlling the immersion.
 
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Re: Immersion Heater - PV electricity - MISSING THE POINT

What if "the sun don't shine?"

Surely a simple "solution" is to use a long 1kw element and a mechanical timer. With the timer set it to come on for 15 minutes every 'approproate' hour. This will trickle feed and topup the temperature whilst averaging out the time when the system is not generating anything.

Not perfect but a simple compromise. If the system generates more than 1kw then sure it is being 'wasted' but less so for people like me who work fom home a lot.

Total Cost : about £30? and two hours labour.

although not sure where you get a long 1kw element from :)
 
I think you are misunderstanding how domestic PV installations work, which happened with some people at the beginning of this thread, before the situation was explained clearly to them.

To summarise, there is no such thing as "averaging out". Your meter does not go backwards when feeding power to the grid*; it only goes forwards when taking power from the grid. Therefore, if the immersion heater ever uses power from the grid, it will cost you and you won't get that cost back.

Hence, you need a system which ensures that the immersion heater is never fed more power than the surplus (generation minus consumption). The simplest way to do this is with a relay that switches it on and off (controlled by determining the surplus, not from a timer), but this is sub-optimal because you will never benefit until there is 1kW surplus. Better is proportional control, which will allow you to use whatever surplus is available, even if less than 1kW. Moreover, as you get to keep your current 3kW immersion heater, you can benefit from a surplus of more than 1kW, and you can use it as originally intended if your boiler fails.

By the way, long 1kW elements were also discussed earlier in this thread. They cost more like £80 than £30.


*in a few cases the meter does go backwards, but electricity companies seem to be becoming more aware of this, and when they know you have PV (which they will, because you have to tell them in order to get the FIT), they will replace your meter with one which doesn't.
 
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thank you. I do understand how it works. I appreciate that my idea will sometimes cost me as I import from the grid but sometimes, often, it won't.

Because this thread is so long it seems pretty obvious that there is no easy and cheap and legal technical solution.

My idea is very simple. Any savings of proposed techincal/battery solutions should be compared to such a simple idea to implement rather than the situation where most generated power is exported 'wastefully' to the grid.

If there are any simple/cheap ideas I would REALLY like to know as I am about to get a 4 kWp system and won't use all that I generate.
 
Sorry, but I don't understand how putting your heater on for a quarter of an hour every hour is any better than just leaving it on all the time during daylight hours, unless you arrange to switch off your other loads during that time. That's why I assumed you didn't know how it works. I agree that fitting a 1kW heater is less likely to have you drawing from the grid than the standard 3kW one, but having a timer switch it on and off at regular intervals doesn't help, because there is no "averaging" when it comes to how you are charged for your electricity.

No one has mentioned batteries by the way, as far as I remember - the whole point is to use water to store the energy.
 
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Hmm I think it must wait until full power level is available for each item before then switching it on, so still very wasteful compared to my comparison circuit. But could have it's uses. But as Suntrap says. I bet it will be a pretty penny or two. :- )
 
Sorry, but I don't understand how putting your heater on for a quarter of an hour every hour is any better than just leaving it on all the time during daylight hours, unless you arrange to switch off your other loads during that time. That's why I assumed you didn't know how it works. I agree that fitting a 1kW heater is less likely to have you drawing from the grid than the standard 3kW one, but having a timer switch it on and off at regular intervals doesn't help, because there is no "averaging" when it comes to how you are charged for your electricity.

No one has mentioned batteries by the way, as far as I remember - the whole point is to use water to store the energy.

Because weather is irregular and changes.As I said originally "what if the sun don't shine?" By simply spreading the "immersion-on-periods" throughout the day you are more likely to coincide with the sun being 'on' eg my strategy would work better than yours on a day when it is cloudy in the morning and sunny in the afternoon. I would also of course refine it to leave periods of no immersion for planning to consume elec for meals/drink/dishwasher/etc

Although your second point is quite correct the thread is about immersion heaters not batteries (or elec car batteries for that matter)
 
Yes, hysterisis has been a problem, and I had to modify my circuit after a few weeks as the relay couldn't cope with the rapid switching.
I have never used, or know anything about micro-controllers, so I can't comment on your suggestion, but good luck.

so get it to turn on the immersion for 5 minutes or 15 minutes! if the sun is shining now you could reasonably expect it to shine for another 5-15 minutes...although obviously it might not. But it probably would.
 
Because weather is irregular and changes.As I said originally "what if the sun don't shine?" By simply spreading the "immersion-on-periods" throughout the day you are more likely to coincide with the sun being 'on'
No you aren't. If the weather is truly random, and I think we both agree that it is, then pick any time during the day and you will have exactly the same chance of the sun being out.
eg my strategy would work better than yours on a day when it is cloudy in the morning and sunny in the afternoon.
And my "strategy"* would work better than yours on a day when it is sunny in the morning and cloudy in the afternoon. They cancel out. You cannot make any predictions about a random value based on when you sample it.

*I'm inferring that you mean I'm suggesting putting the heater on for one long period in the morning.
I would also of course refine it to leave periods of no immersion for planning to consume elec for meals/drink/dishwasher/etc
That is indeed a sensible use of a timer.
 
Because weather is irregular and changes.As I said originally "what if the sun don't shine?" By simply spreading the "immersion-on-periods" throughout the day you are more likely to coincide with the sun being 'on' eg my strategy would work better than yours on a day when it is cloudy in the morning and sunny in the afternoon. I would also of course refine it to leave periods of no immersion for planning to consume elec for meals/drink/dishwasher/etc

Although your second point is quite correct the thread is about immersion heaters not batteries (or elec car batteries for that matter)

Err I think that you TOTALLY missed the point of this blog. It was set up to discuss a way of automatically measuring and controlling the spare power so that it can be used to heat your water for free. Setting a switch for random periods during the day is not controlling anything. It may be cheap to setup but will quickly cost you more than the systems setup by members here.
 
Hi,
I am about to have a PV system installed. I did not understand the need for the system to be patched in in a particular way so as to make easy measurements etc. Please explain (in simple language!).
I presently have an OWL energy monitor in the external meter cupboard and would expect to attach another current sensor somewhere after the invertor in the loft so don't understand the need for a seperate panel.
Looking back at earlier suggestions; a light dimmer board was thought to be a simple solution, having all needed interference protection etc, but was rejected through having a potentionmeter control.
It may help to note that you could use digipots, digitally controlled potentiometers, to replace the light dimmer potentiometer. You would have to use a microcontroller to control the digipot of course but to my way of thinking the microcontroller circuit has got to be the best way forward with its meter, display and perhaps wireless control capabilities.
I will research and post suitable devices and provide programming examples if converting a light dimmers make electrical sense!
PS
Think the SUNNY Home Manager is Euro 1,300, which is a lot. A small linux wireless microcontroller would cost around £30, software would be technically straight forward but take the usual 'while' to write code for & test.
 
Hi bradburts - more ideas flowing in! I too have an OWL, given to me as a present. This sort of energy monitor is compromised in that it can't determine power factor, but this shouldn't be a big problem with solar inverters as they have power factor correction. The other annoying thing about it is that the resolution is not great - the reading goes up and down in fairly large steps.

I think that the issue of making easy measurements is that you need a single-core cable (such as a meter tail) to clamp the current transformer round; if it's twin core the opposing currents will cancel and you will get no reading. If your installer uses a separate "garage unit" (small consumer unit) just for your PV installation, there will be meter tails from this which you can use to measure your PV current. My installer put an RCBO in the existing consumer unit (it's split load and there was a spare way on the unprotected side). Although this means there are no meter tails, he pointed out that there is space in the consumer unit to clamp the current transformer around one of the twin and earth cores where the outer insulation is removed, and that's what I have done. The OWL's reading is a bit erratic but it still gives a good indication, which tallies broadly with what the inverter is telling me.

I too am interested in getting an extra current transformer for my OWL, as I noticed the transmitter has three sockets on it (unless that's just for three phase supplies?). I haven't investigated it further yet, though.
 
Simples use SMA Inverters. My immersion kicks in when the inverter is at 1.8Kw using the built in multifunction relay. FREE to use, and the additional kit cost about £50
 
Not so simples - that neither provides proportional control, nor does it take any account of other loads in the house, nor does it allow you to use your existing immersion heater (so if you need to heat your water with 3kW in an emergency, you can't).

I think we need a FAQ for this thread!
 
Actually with very little on in the house during the day, its not a problem. Also have the immersion switched between 1.5 and 3kW, so no need to change that either all with an 89p diode.
 

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