Increase mcb capacity. Notifiable?

[davesparks]

You could find the break in under 2 minutes? We then I take my hat off to you.

But pray tell how do you know it is a standard circuit? As far as I know we have not been told the age if the installation so do not know if the cpcs are 1.5, 1.0 or even 3/029 for a start.
Not all rings conform to the standard circuits, the 20A MCB may be there for other reasons.

 

[Plonker 3]

Right, have you read the Part P document which lists notifiable work? That will give you the answer to your question. There really isn't any need for a 5 page thread when YOU 'could,have simply found the answer out for yourself.

 

[Plonker 3]

that may or may not include new wiring or perhaps a new CU

For gods sake you don't need to change a DB just because you have repaired a cable.

 

[davesparks]

But this is the modern world where people have to be told everything and independant thought is a relic of a bygone era.

 

[Plonker 3]

OP are you a electrician?
How long did your take to be qualified?

 

[trev]

OP are you a electrician?
How long did your take to be qualified?

4 Years!

 

[Meggerman]

Ok. It seems obvious it was a ring that was derated. I just wasn't sure if putting it right constituted something notifiable ad Im uprating the MCB.

For various reasons I didn't undertake a full investigation. I wasnt 100% about the customer and I didnt want to poke about reconnecting wires and pointing out what the problems were. I thought better to tske stock and quote her for the potential outcomes of the work. She is aware of the problem(s) and she now has a quote for both msking good the defective circuit and for any other potential work that may or may not include new wiring or perhaps a new CU

Definatly work a new DB in there as part of the quote. It will give her RCD protection and also comply if cable cpc is 1mm as you will have 60898 B32 MCB.

 

[Plonker 3]

Definatly work a new DB in there as part of the quote. It will give her RCD protection and also comply if cable cpc is 1mm as you will have 60898 B32 MCB.

Because of course, a whole installation has to comply with current regs the moment you carry out any work on it.

 

[Meggerman]

Because of course, a whole installation has to comply with current regs the moment you carry out any work on it.

No, because adding on an RCD to the old DB for just one circuit is untidy and becomes abortive work (and ultimately wastes clients money) when the DB gets upgraded down the line anyway.

 

[spynage]

OP are you a electrician?
How long did your take to be qualified?

A helpful response might garner a helpful reply. The part p document isn't clear on MCB upgrades and circuit arrangement changes. Thought I'd seek wisdom on here.

 

[Plonker 3]

Will the DB be upgraded in the future, it's sitting there perfectly fine right now. Also a new DB is going to cost about £300 more than a stand alone unit, how would you feel if you room your car to the garage for new brakes and they said oh while we are at it we will also change your radiator because it will need doing one day?

 

[Plonker 3]

A helpful response might garner a helpful reply. The part p document isn't clear on MCB upgrades and circuit arrangement changes. Thought I'd seek wisdom on here.

Well if it doesn't say anything the it doesn't need notifying does it?

 

[Meggerman]

Will the DB be upgraded in the future, it's sitting there perfectly fine right now. Also a new DB is going to cost about £300 more than a stand alone unit, how would you feel if you room your car to the garage for new brakes and they said oh while we are at it we will also change your radiator because it will need doing one day?

I don't get why you lot cannot get your head around business. I'm not ****ing around to accommodate there outdated crap. I will offer to upgrade whenever the opportunity arises. SSE and chums do it everyday. I am a business and business is good. Wise up.

 

[Plonker 3]

Yes your business is to ensure that the customer gets looked after not have unnecessary work carried out, by all means explain the advantages and let the customer decide but to say it needs doing is just the work of a scammer.

 

[Meggerman]

Yes your business is to ensure that the customer gets looked after not have unnecessary work carried out, by all means explain the advantages and let the customer decide but to say it needs doing is just the work of a scammer.

I take pride in my work and everything is to regulations. I quote in a competitive market place and know my business. I always give prices before which are agreed before work commences. A scammer does work and then presents an inflated bill.

 

[JC94]

Maybe it was downrated due to a high Zs result? Unlikely by the sounds of things, Still, if there's a break in the r1 check it out, but that might be why it may have been changed from 32A to 20? As you said, you were in a rush and may not have had time to test etc (sorry haven't read the whole thread, bit late)

 

[spynage]

Maybe it was downrated due to a high Zs result? Unlikely by the sounds of things, Still, if there's a break in the r1 check it out, but that might be why it may have been changed from 32A to 20? As you said, you were in a rush and may not have had time to test etc (sorry haven't read the whole thread, bit late)

Yes. R1 was disconnected. Didn't check R2 but she has a quote for all outcomes inc a new section of wiring or reconnecting what's there. I saw the 20amp though and made an assumption. The customer also told me the previous owner had run out of money when renovating the property, so there was a clue!

 

[JC94]

Oh right it's a 3036 board? so it wouldn't have been a 32 (if it was changed) it would have been 30, check the Zs measurement and see if that's why it was changed, should be less than... about 1.14 for 3036 30amp fuses?

 

[spynage]

Oh right it's a 3036 board? so it wouldn't have been a 32 (if it was changed) it would have been 30, check the Zs measurement and see if that's why it was changed

yes 30 sorry. I think she would want the new CU as she's keen on selling the place. I'll do the Zs of course but yeah bear in mind the disconnection time for the MCB!

 

[davesparks]

I don't get why you lot cannot get your head around business. I'm not ****ing around to accommodate there outdated crap. I will offer to upgrade whenever the opportunity arises. SSE and chums do it everyday. I am a business and business is good. Wise up.

Yes it is good practice to advise the customer as to the advantages of upgrading the installation, but you also have to make them aware that there is no requirement to do it and if the installation is in good condition then it is not necessary, just purely advisable.

 

[Octopus]

yes 30 sorry. I think she would want the new CU as she's keen on selling the place. I'll do the Zs of course but yeah bear in mind the disconnection time for the MCB!

This is astonishing. You've admitted that you "think" there is an issue, you have admitted that you haven't tested the circuit, yet you pursue the line of changing the MCB and the CU.

Please, please, please, arrange to visit the client and fully test the circuit - like you WOULD HAVE TO DO on a board change.

Then post the ACTUAL situation.

That said are you a scheme member?

 

[tony mc]

Looks like NIC from previous posts.

Is it me yet another post with half cocked information from op!

Posts 9 & 12 you were given the answer IMO

 

[camerabloke]

Dunno if this has been mentioned. But are you actually chasing a ring that isn't a ring? 2 cables in a mcb don't mean it's definitely a ring. You've tested r1 and no continuity so I could be 2 radials. You need to do more testing

 

[Risteard]

I talk them round and upgrade ... 1361 boards whenever I see them in houses.

What is wrong with cartridge fuses? They have a higher breaking capacity than circuit breakers to BS EN 60898. I have them in my house and no intention of changing them!

 

[Iddy]

To the OP no offence meant at all.. Ive read through the posts and all the experianced members have answered all your questions. Just take a step with a fresh mind and take on the good information / advice and take it from there with the client.

 

[7029 dave]

As ^^^^ nothing more to be said.

 

[Meggerman]

Dunno if this has been mentioned. But are you actually chasing a ring that isn't a ring? 2 cables in a mcb don't mean it's definitely a ring. You've tested r1 and no continuity so I could be 2 radials. You need to do more testing

It has been mentioned.

 

[Meggerman]

What is wrong with cartridge fuses? They have a higher breaking capacity than circuit breakers to BS EN 60898. I have them in my house and no intention of changing them!

They may have higher breaking capacity, but as MCB's breaking capacities is at least 6KA it is not a problem is it. I was really referring to wylex 3036 / 1361 type as there would be no RCD present (unless add on or an upfront... which is crap either way)

 

[GMES]

Good old JRC could have rewired the whole house by the time this get's resolved!

 

[Meggerman]

Good old JRC could have rewired the whole house by the time this get's resolved!

I miss that guy. I wonder if he ever found that fault?

 

[Risteard]

They may have higher breaking capacity, but as MCB's breaking capacities is at least 6KA it is not a problem is it. I was really referring to wylex 3036 / 1361 type as there would be no RCD present (unless add on or an upfront... which is crap either way)

Not saying there is a problem with the breaking capacity of circuit breakers. But there is a lot to be said for fuses, e.g. for discrimination. (60898s in series won't discriminate.) And my installation with 1361s has RCD protection.

 

[Meggerman]

Not saying there is a problem with the breaking capacity of circuit breakers. But there is a lot to be said for fuses, e.g. for discrimination. (60898s in series won't discriminate.) And my installation with 1361s has RCD protection.

In my experience MCB discrimination is not an issue in houses. A home owner being able to reset an MCB after a lamp blows instead of replacing fuses is a real plus. Have you got a front end RCD for the whole install at home or what set up do you have?

 

[GMES]

Yeah good old Jamie I will give him one thing, he could take a good bashing and hold is own, fair play to him I say.

 

[Risteard]

No, not a front-end. Just split board with not all circuits RCD-protected. Wouldn't have a problem with a front-end though if necessary. The only time it has ever tripped is with water under the kettle lol.

 

[Meggerman]

No, not a front-end. Just split board with not all circuits RCD-protected. Wouldn't have a problem with a front-end though if necessary. The only time it has ever tripped is with water under the kettle lol.

Ok mate. At a guess is that Hager or MEM out of interest?

 

[Rockingit]

1. it's not notifiable as it's not a new circuit. 2. it's optional whether or not you fit RCD> personally i would prefer to fit one if the customer was happy to pay.

Disagree. If you change the CPD then you have fundamentally changed the operating characteristics of that circuit which makes it notifiable. Otherwise, if it wasn't notifiable then logically neither would a CU change - it's not different!

 

[Andy78]

Disagree. If you change the CPD then you have fundamentally changed the operating characteristics of that circuit which makes it notifiable. Otherwise, if it wasn't notifiable then logically neither would a CU change - it's not different!

As much sense as your logic makes, that's not the scope of part P and it would not be notfiable.

 

[davesparks]

But where do you draw the line?
If changing one MCB is not notifiable, is changing two notifiable?
How about 4? Or changing all of the MCBs in a board? Or changing an mcb for an RCBO?

 

[Andy78]

But where do you draw the line?
If changing one MCB is not notifiable, is changing two notifiable?
How about 4? Or changing all of the MCBs in a board? Or changing an mcb for an RCBO?

You draw the line where part P says you draw the line which, wrong or right, is there in black and white.

 

[Meggerman]

But where do you draw the line?
If changing one MCB is not notifiable, is changing two notifiable?
How about 4? Or changing all of the MCBs in a board? Or changing an mcb for an RCBO?

The Line is drawn. It is not a new circuit, it is not notifiable. However is does require certification.

 

[Plonker 3]

It is not a new circuit,.

But what if the OP is converting 2 radials to a RFC? That would be creating a new circuit.

 

[davesparks]

How is a circuit defined in terms of an installation?

 

[Meggerman]

But what if the OP is converting 2 radials to a RFC? That would be creating a new circuit.

I can see where you are coming from, but me personally, a new circuit that I sign of as new is new cable from the DB. I would consider it a modification and in this case it maybe a broken ring but OP has not confirmed rn & r2 yet AFAIK. Out of interest, would you genuinely notify on this.... really?

 

[Meggerman]

Dave, I can see your point too, but is it really new? Also, out of interest, would you personally notify on this one?

 

[davesparks]

Yes I would notify and have in similar circumstances.

To be specific when finding a fault on a ring and converting to 2 x radial ccts by disconnecting the damaged cable where raplacement was not feasable. I converted it to 1x20A radial and 1x 16A radial, as far as I am concerned that is 2x new ccts.

 

[Meggerman]

Yes I would notify and have in similar circumstances.

To be specific when finding a fault on a ring and converting to 2 x radial ccts by disconnecting the damaged cable where raplacement was not feasable. I converted it to 1x20A radial and 1x 16A radial, as far as I am concerned that is 2x new ccts.

Ok, fair enough. If OP's situation turns out to be broken ring and he rectifies break and installs 32A MCB, would you notify that?

 

[Plonker 3]

If it's a like for like replacement no, same route same size cable . But the OP hasn't confirmed anything yet.

 

[Meggerman]

If it's a like for like replacement no, same route same size cable . But the OP hasn't confirmed anything yet.

We need to wait for OP to get back or this thread is gonna be longer than UKSparks and his Gas Pipe

 

[Rockingit]

Yes, I would notify. Because:

Section 0, Table 1 (Work that need NOT be notified)

Notes -
(a) On condition that the replacement cable has the same current-carrying capacity and follows the same route
(b) If the circuit's protective measures are unaffected

By reconnecting the two cables to create a RFC you directly affect (a) and in changing the OCPD you affect (b).

Now, before you all jump on the bandwagon and make comments about the specific lines those notes refer to, I think it's fairly clear what is actually meant, even though as badly worded as you'll usually find in any Government document.

 

[Rockingit]

If it's a like for like replacement no, same route same size cable . But the OP hasn't confirmed anything yet.

It's not like for like! It's changing a 20A OCPD for a 32/30A OCPD with completely different Zs limits to comply with ADS.