Discuss industrial welder. any advice in the Commercial Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net

Calculate cpc size using the adiabatic equation, exactly the same as any other circuit.

And put your best tin hat on before anyone else answers this, if you aren't on a wind up you are going to be catching some serious flak!
 
To save future embarrasment I deleted it.

2 phases. No neutral. And cpc
80 amp fuses per phase. Max leakage imo can be no higher than 160amp.

First time in dealing with welders not 100%
 
No, they use the cpc as a cpc and a neutral as a neutral if one is required. It sounds like the machine you have is designed to operate on two phases of a three phase supply, unless of course it's designed for a two phase supply?

You need a lot more than a little guidance, you clearly don't understand the first thing about the job you are attempting to do.
 
thinking worst case senario. Do welders use a cpc to act as a neutral. little guidance is all I need and I'm finding it really hard to get it on here.

Some welders have 200amp - 400amp earth clips.....

I think you are getting confused with the terminology,referring to the OUTPUT side of the machine.

The terms and figures only make sense,if this is the case.

Do a bit of research,and all will become apparent...but do not attempt,if unsure,and some other human is to test its' operation...:conehead:
 
Think along the lines of electrode (live) and work piece (neutral return). The I/P and O/P are two separate entities.

Where I’ve seen things go badly wrong is when the CPC has been used for the return. Do some reading on the subject, as a hint, don’t bother looking in BS7671.
 
Think along the lines of electrode (live) and work piece (neutral return). The I/P and O/P are two separate entities.

Where I’ve seen things go badly wrong is when the CPC has been used for the return. Do some reading on the subject, as a hint, don’t bother looking in BS7671.

Yep, I recently had a call out because a welder had set the cpc on fire in the DB and it even made the trunking rattle, lol. I repaired the circuit and offered to check the welder to make sure it was wired correctly but they thought it was dangerous so the had ditched it before I got there...
 
Yep, I recently had a call out because a welder had set the cpc on fire in the DB and it even made the trunking rattle, lol. I repaired the circuit and offered to check the welder to make sure it was wired correctly but they thought it was dangerous so the had ditched it before I got there...

Welding sets have been the bain of my life, more correctly idle welders who can’t be bothered with the return.

Cables on fire, bearings seized, you name it, they can bugger it up!
 
Being back acetylene welding, that won't bugger your earth wires up!

May sound a little sad, but when I was a lad, I did spend some time in the welding shop ONLY because I was fascinated by the cutting torch and how good the welders were at cutting thick plate. Anyway when I eventually got them to let me do some cutting I was ecstatic, can still remember the day....
 
May sound a little sad, but when I was a lad, I did spend some time in the welding shop ONLY because I was fascinated by the cutting torch and how good the welders were at cutting thick plate. Anyway when I eventually got them to let me do some cutting I was ecstatic, can still remember the day....

Ive got some of my grandad's oxy torches in the shed, he was a diesel fitter working on mining machinery and trucks etc in australia. theres a normal size cutting torch, straight torch about 2' long and a circle cutting guide to hold the big torch and cut perfect circles.
Some of the other gems he's passed on include a 3 legged puller which could have a role in war of the worlds and an 1" drive socket set.

Anything I have no use for or don't want gets donated to charity
 
Any advice on where best to research welders. As yous say noT bs7671

Cheers fellas. I'm having a debate at work and I advise they oversized the phase cables (ain't disputed the cpc as that's what I'm working out lol)
 
Any advice on where best to research welders. As yous say noT bs7671

Cheers fellas. I'm having a debate at work and I advise they oversized the phase cables (ain't disputed the cpc as that's what I'm working out lol)

Why oversize the phase cables? the correct size cable will do the job fine
 
That's why I'm trying to research a little first before I look like the noob. Which I am but.... its 80 amps per phase and they want to install a 70mm cable capable of carry 196 amps per phase. (Only thing I can assume is to gain a 35mm earth cable Which may be required. That's why I'm wanting a little advice
 
That's why I'm trying to research a little first before I look like the noob. Which I am but.... its 80 amps per phase and they want to install a 70mm cable capable of carry 196 amps per phase. (Only thing I can assume is to gain a 35mm earth cable Which may be required. That's why I'm wanting a little advice

CCC isn't the only consideration when selecting a cable.
Are you actually a qualified electrician?
 
Someone else designed it. I'm trying to understand it.

They specified 70mm. 35mm copper.

I have to install it and I think it's way to big.
 
Welding sets have been the bain of my life, more correctly idle welders who can’t be bothered with the return.

Cables on fire, bearings seized, you name it, they can bugger it up!


You and me too..been there posted some pics in the past ..seen welders take out 10mm bond in trunking melting into every other cable blowing main cutout... cost 6k to rewire and regardless of our warnings same guy did the same thing 2 weeks later - sacked instantly then and we had to re-do our work again albiet not as bad - 10mm earth and 600amps don't mix....
 
Sorry to say I’m out of here, the OP clearly doesn’t know what he’s doing. That said it doesn’t sound like the designer does either.

Heavy welding plant is dangerous and not for a trainee to be playing about with.
 
Length of circuit (25 meters),
max permitted Zs 0.31,
inrush current, max 80amps it runs off 50% power wave
power factor (unknown but the fuses are 80amp built in the machine 80amp max. N/A)
max permitted VD, 25m probs 2vd max. (No worries here)
ambient temp 30o
installation method E,
type of cable SWA 4 core.. I said the earth was copy my bad it's sheath, (was tired)
conductor operating temperature? 40 - 60o (90o cable)

Ohh and disconnect te required 5 seconds.


Tony your right I don't know about these but I'm the type of guy who likes to find out why it's this cable.
 
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Take a pic of the plate Davey or supply the make and model of the welder, welders are not for the inexperienced as Tony quite rightly points out and require a lot of respect, some simple info you forget to mention or don't realise is important can be the difference between an incorrect install with issues to even a dangerous setup.

Welders can be designed for multi-tapped inputs and the plates can become confusing very quick, as a Trainee your enthusiam is great but you should be working under someones wing here and this is the person to answer your queries as (s)he's will have all the facts to hand as they have designed said circuit...

Your trying to win the marathon here just after you learned to walk, trying to understand this side of the job can make what your learning very confusing indeed as you'll see obvious conflictions to what your been taught so I would get yourself a good few yrs behind you before tackling such equipment.

I've seen seasoned Electricians mess up on machine/plant supplies just because they are clearly out of there depth, its not about just designing the supply, its also about knowing the peak and duration of power demands and how the loads work..... often is the case where you haven't got any info to reference as with most older plant.
 
Any electric welding set made to current standards must not be able to "take out" any supply side earths etc.
If the set is not totally electrically separated between primary and secondary, then it does not meet the current build standards for it to be legal for sale, and if it is already in use then it is considered lethal by HSE & TWI I don't believe that the IET would argue either, and must be put out of service immediately as it is no longer considered compliant with PUWER98 nor EAWR89.
 
Used to do some maintenance work for a small machine shop a few years ago. Had to replace bearings on one of his lathes on several occasions because he used to centre 2 pieces up on it and weld together. Problem was he would put the welders earth clamp on the body of the lathe and weld the piece in the chuck.
 
Used to do some maintenance work for a small machine shop a few years ago. Had to replace bearings on one of his lathes on several occasions because he used to centre 2 pieces up on it and weld together. Problem was he would put the welders earth clamp on the body of the lathe and weld the piece in the chuck.

Considering they make rotating earth clamps specially for this purpose then this bloke is an idiot, what he did there was dangerous both to personel and the integrity of the bearings.... they could have easily failed catastrophically after the damage sustained from the high currents bridging the bearings considering lathes can have heavy loads spinning with high inertia he is lucky he got nothing worse than bearing replacements... if thats true I'm truely facepalmed!!!!
 
Used to do some maintenance work for a small machine shop a few years ago. Had to replace bearings on one of his lathes on several occasions because he used to centre 2 pieces up on it and weld together. Problem was he would put the welders earth clamp on the body of the lathe and weld the piece in the chuck.

Things like that grind my gears!!

A Lathe is a precision machine tool and should be treated as such.

It is NOT a freaking welding jig!!!! :32:
 
Things like that grind my gears!!

A Lathe is a precision machine tool and should be treated as such.

It is NOT a freaking welding jig!!!! :32:

...Unless it's in a propshaft repair shop,in which case,that's mainly what it is!...albeit with running earth arrangements in place.

Any welding operation,carried out on machinery where current continuity bridges lubed slide beds and bearings,is going to be costly...:icon12:
 
Any electric welding set made to current standards must not be able to "take out" any supply side earths etc.
If the set is not totally electrically separated between primary and secondary, then it does not meet the current build standards for it to be legal for sale, and if it is already in use then it is considered lethal by HSE & TWI I don't believe that the IET would argue either, and must be put out of service immediately as it is no longer considered compliant with PUWER98 nor EAWR89.

Never mind what any regulations say. The problem is bone idle welders clamping on to the nearest bit of steelwork and not the workpiece. Any electrical earthing or bearing in the return path will suffer.
 
I work in a company that uses high velocity oxygen fuelled (HVOF) tech' to infuse a layer on metal coating on a steel drum fixed in a lathe not welding in the known context but has similarities .. one hell of a noisy thing and the UV off it is very intense and largely more dangerous compared to standard welding.

Its in a vented room due to the gasses used but resembles aluminium white welding light in a jet resembling a rocket engines output flame, its a new company on my rounds so will try get a pic or too as Engineering ****.
http://www.metallisation.com/products/hvof/
 
We used metallization gear for zinc coating ductile iron pipe. The spray heads are a pain in the arse, usually one head a week would catch fire.

I toyed with the idea of modifying one of the heads for the rollers but couldn’t get the required current for it to be reliable. The zinc heads were 1500A @20V.

So the MIG welder had to be pressed in to service for re-facing the rollers. It could build up the required diameter in one pass, the metal spray would have needed several passes. The beauty of the setup was once the roller was chucked the welding was immediately followed by machining by just changing the tool post.
I got in a spot of bother over the earth return. I pinched the brush gear off a spare motor on another plant, they weren’t happy.
 
We used metallization gear for zinc coating ductile iron pipe. The spray heads are a pain in the arse, usually one head a week would catch fire.

I toyed with the idea of modifying one of the heads for the rollers but couldn’t get the required current for it to be reliable. The zinc heads were 1500A @20V.

So the MIG welder had to be pressed in to service for re-facing the rollers. It could build up the required diameter in one pass, the metal spray would have needed several passes. The beauty of the setup was once the roller was chucked the welding was immediately followed by machining by just changing the tool post.
I got in a spot of bother over the earth return. I pinched the brush gear off a spare motor on another plant, they weren’t happy.


This is normally the case, you fit a quart into a pint pot, use ingenuity on a level any those complaining could only dream of and still you cop it from some jobs worth... been there got the T-shirt and free pamphlet on guide to how not to keep upsetting the idiots.
 
Please don't say you used it on a lathe - unless it was an old & knackered one.

It was a Czechoslovakian TOS 120x15”. So yes, it was a good lathe. The welding return went direct to the brush gear on the chuck so no return through the headstock. All slides and the bedway protected with fibreglass cloth. I used the same lathe to make a cylinder grinder.

Had it caused any problems with the bearings I think I’d have noticed when I had 100HP rotors in for the sliprings to be trued and fine polished. It’s a bloody big lump of metal to have going at full chat. Although the fitters refused to enter the shop when I was polishing sliprings.

The other lathe in the shop was a Harrison, a beautiful bit of kit. I regret I never got the chance to use the profile follower on it.





I could have sworn my indentures say I’m an electrician………
 
It was a Czechoslovakian TOS 120x15”. So yes, it was a good lathe. The welding return went direct to the brush gear on the chuck so no return through the headstock. All slides and the bedway protected with fibreglass cloth. I used the same lathe to make a cylinder grinder.

Had it caused any problems with the bearings I think I’d have noticed when I had 100HP rotors in for the sliprings to be trued and fine polished. It’s a bloody big lump of metal to have going at full chat. Although the fitters refused to enter the shop when I was polishing sliprings.

The other lathe in the shop was a Harrison, a beautiful bit of kit. I regret I never got the chance to use the profile follower on it.





I could have sworn my indentures say I’m an electrician………


I never liked Harisons - or any other lathe that had the carriage traverse hand wheel on the left side (nearest the chuck) always like it on the right so you stand well away from the chuck and all the shyte that it throws at you.

I was very fond of the profile follower (copying attachment) and used it a lot for high speed screwcutting.

The tricky part with screwcutting is in getting the tool out of the thread fast enough when you reach the end and my lathe - a Colchester Triumph 2000 was fitted with a rapid threading attachment which meant I could cut 2mm pitches at 350 RPM but it's bloody hard to disengage the leadscrew nuts an wind the tool back at that speed!

So the trick was to set a stop at the thread end which disengaged the leadscrew and that just left the small matter of getting the tool wound back.

Solution was mount the tool upside down in the profiler (which was mounted on the back of the cross slide) and set a stop for the stylus to follow.

Result; tool goes galloping off cutting the thread until profiler stylus meets it's stop and retracts the tool then carriage (saddle) meets its stop and disengages the leadscrew nuts!

I was making fitting bolts for the MOD in batches of 100 which were a fancy shape like a candlestick with a thread on the end so I used the profiler for that and ran the whole batch complete except for the thread then ran them back through with the profile set to work with the rapid threader.

The thing ran like a dream and I was knocking these bolts out at the rate of one every 20 minutes.

My predecessor using an "ordinary" lathe took one hour ten mins. - each!

It wasn't just bolts - there were other things that I found a use for that profiler such as bearing bushes with a flange on one end.

Use the profiler to machine the outside diameter and the flange on the end while a boring bar in the front toolpost finishes the bore all at the same time.

That job previously took about 20 mins and I knocked it down to about ten - which on a batch of 100 is a bit of a saving.

That was how boss man was able to afford a brand new Ford Granada and a year later a one year old Daimler Sovereign .

It also meant that my work was finished in the middle of the afternoon and as boss was never in in the afternoon I was free to go next door to another little machine shop and do a bit of cash-in-hand there. :laugh:

I've been in quite a few machine shops and seen the profiler / copier lying on the floor because folk just think of them as something that copies. If you open you mind a bit you can find all sorts of other uses for them that make the job easier & quicker.
 
I have used a Harrison profile follower at college. The one at the foundry, god knows what happened the hydraulic unit, it was well and truly f****d.

Can’t say the carriage traverse bothered me, probably because the first lathe I used a 14 was a Harrison.

I did like the Colchester 2000, it’s a workhorse.

The most fun lathe was a Broadbent. 18’ faceplate, 30’ main bedway and 15’ auxiliary bedway. Two tool holders on separate bedways to the side. All motions were powered, there’s no way you would shift them by hand.
 

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