Labour Manifesto

[Darkwood]

When we go into elections or vote on referendums it is exclusively done so that we have the losers consent, this is and was the case for the EU referendum and Scotland's independence vote.. or so we thought.
It seems that in light of the EU referendum result going against the expectations and will of the establishment and the mainstream media we have seen yrs and yrs of questionable funding pumped into groups and people who support EU/Remain positions, there has been hypocrisy and irony throughout, Trump makes a comment to back Boris up and all of a sudden there is uproar from the remainers that he is interfering in our politics yet they forget that Obama came out and said if we leave we are going to the back of the queue for a trade deal (strange comment to make when he knew he wouldn't actually be in office given the USA's impending election).
With regards the SNP, Oh! Where do I start, Scotland also voted in their own referendum to stay with the UK under the knowledge of an impending EU referendum maybe on the cards and it was the case the SNP argued the UK may end up leaving the EU if the Tories stay in power and deliver the choice to hold a referendum, they used this possibility to try shore up support and still lost so in light of this, this means they were not been taken out of the EU against their will as that possibility was laid bare and they still chose to stay part of the UK, this also means they do not have a mandate to now have another referendum.
You have got to love politics and how it seems to suffer memory issues when it suits their own agenda.

 

[father zed]

The strange thing about Politics, people tend to think they know enough.
Sparking as a mirroring example - people coming into the Trade know that they
need to study to understand various aspects of Theory and Practice.
Yet, in Politics, the tendency is to think that 'we' know enough, and that
we're 'right'. Which makes the work of the Media infinitely easier.

This video from an NHS campaigner lists the Private Sector
firms already embedded in the NHS -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCYJ42GLIjo


And a link to 'The Great NHS Heist'

Watch The Great NHS Heist Documentary Online | Vimeo On Demand

How a nation was robbed of its most treasured possession The British National Health Service is the nation’s proudest achievements, lifting burden from…

vimeo.com

I hope some have also watched Pilger's 'The Dirty War on the NHS'

If you want to contemplate what's so wrong with having the Private
Sector in Health - have a look at what happens in the USA - there's some
snippets on this in Pilger's film. It should open your eyes, hopefully.

There's a mass of info out there, if people have the curiosity to look at it.
If you do get into it, and become better informed about what's being done
to the NHS - keep in mind what you've learned, when watching what passes
for News in this country, when they run an NHS 'story'.

Why do I care, particularly? Well I care full stop. But as someone with
friends and family that work in the NHS, I've heard first hand about what's
been/being done, and the impact it has. It's VERY grim, and set to get worse.
Think on good people!
(Some recommended reading included)

 

[Zerax]

Wow Father Zed... a lot of reading and opinions to listen to and analyse there...

I have to admit that I don't have time to read and/or watch all the links that you have posted, but it all seems very wrong to me.

I can only speak as a user of the NHS... and I agree that it needs urgent change !! I have been lucky to have exactly the same procedure carried out by both an 'in-house' NHS department and as an 'out-sourced' NHS service. For me... and I'm not saying that this is always the case, but the out-sourced service was far superior to the in-house one. And as a 'patient' that's what I care about. As a tax payer, I want to see the most efficient use of my money (how you measure efficient is a topic in itself).

The problem with this whole 'they're making a profit out of us' argument is nonsense and idealogical. Let me give you an example;

If having procedure "A" costs the NHS £10 to do in-house... or the identical procedure "A" £9 to out-source... then I would expect the NHS to outsource it. The fact that the out-sourced partner is making 50p profit from this is irrelevant to most people, except ideologists.

I think that most people are agreed that the NHS needs urgent radical reform... but it's almost un-reformable due to its sheer vastness, the culture that has been allowed to be built up over the last 70+ years and the fact that every politician I hear always has to prefix the NHS with a superlative... like Our Amazing NHS, or Our Incredible NHS etc. The higher you raise that dais, the harder it is to criticise it !

There was a guy about 10 years ago who tried to reform his local hospital... I forget his name, but he was like one of those 'captains of industry' who'd been around for years and knew about management etc. He thought... I'll start with something small at first and take it from there... get an early easy win. His objective was to have the hospital use the operating theatres for 5 days a week rather than the current 4. After about 6 months of meetings, discussions, persuasions, gaining trust, workshops etc. he thought he'd finally cracked it !! The person in charge agreed that it was a good idea ! she said proudly... "Yes, OK we'll do it.... I'll put it forward to the next Theatre Operating Committee Meeting"

He dropped his head... in despair... and admitted defeat... the NHS is so stuck in its ways... forget change.

 

[rapparee]

When we go into elections or vote on referendums it is exclusively done so that we have the loses consent, this is and was the case for the EU referendum and Scotland's independence vote.. or so we thought.
It seems that in light of the EU referendum result going against the expectations and will of the establishment and the mainstream media we have seen yrs and yrs of questionable funding pumped into groups and people who support EU/Remain positions, there has been hypocrisy and irony throughout, Trump makes a comment to back Boris up and all of a sudden there is uproar from the remainers that he is interfering in our politics yet they forget that Obama came out and said if we leave we are going to the back of the queue for a trade deal (strange comment to make when he knew he wouldn't actually be in office given the USA's impending election).
With regards the SNP, Oh! Where do I start, Scotland also voted in their own referendum to stay with the UK under the knowledge of an impending EU referendum maybe on the cards and it was the case the SNP argued the UK may end up leaving the EU if the Tories stay in power and deliver the choice to hold a referendum, they used this possibility to try shore up support and still lost so in light of this, this means they were not been taken out of the EU against their will as that possibility was laid bare and they still chose to stay part of the UK, this also means they do not have a mandate to now have another referendum.
You have got to love politics and how it seems to suffer memory issues when it suits their own agenda.

I disagree.

The whole rhetoric around the referendum at the time was that if Scotland chose to leave the UK, then the Spanish would not allow them to stay in the EU and they would have to exit and then apply as a new member. (The Spanish had an eye on their own Basque and Catalonian secessionist movements)

The English political class made great mileage out of this saying that it was better to be in the UK and the EU.

 

[Darkwood]

I disagree.

The whole rhetoric around the referendum at the time was that if Scotland chose to leave the UK, then the Spanish would not allow them to stay in the EU and they would have to exit and then apply as a new member. (The Spanish had an eye on their own Basque and Catalonian secessionist movements)

The English political class made great mileage out of this saying that it was better to be in the UK and the EU.

I think you missed the whole point of my post this has no relative context to other EU nations, it was the fact the SNP used the fact they could be taken out of the EU as political weapon and still lost means they do not have a mandate... these are on record as Nichola S' own words, since she lost and things have backfired for her she now pretends the past promises don't mean anything.
[automerge]1576968371[/automerge]

The strange thing about Politics, people tend to think they know enough.
Sparking as a mirroring example - people coming into the Trade know that they
need to study to understand various aspects of Theory and Practice.
Yet, in Politics, the tendency is to think that 'we' know enough, and that
we're 'right'. Which makes the work of the Media infinitely easier.

This video from an NHS campaigner lists the Private Sector
firms already embedded in the NHS -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCYJ42GLIjo


And a link to 'The Great NHS Heist'

Watch The Great NHS Heist Documentary Online | Vimeo On Demand

How a nation was robbed of its most treasured possession The British National Health Service is the nation’s proudest achievements, lifting burden from…

vimeo.com

I hope some have also watched Pilger's 'The Dirty War on the NHS'

If you want to contemplate what's so wrong with having the Private
Sector in Health - have a look at what happens in the USA - there's some
snippets on this in Pilger's film. It should open your eyes, hopefully.

There's a mass of info out there, if people have the curiosity to look at it.
If you do get into it, and become better informed about what's being done
to the NHS - keep in mind what you've learned, when watching what passes
for News in this country, when they run an NHS 'story'.

Why do I care, particularly? Well I care full stop. But as someone with
friends and family that work in the NHS, I've heard first hand about what's
been/being done, and the impact it has. It's VERY grim, and set to get worse.
Think on good people!
(Some recommended reading included)

This is a review based on the American system and should not be confused with it, privatisation is not always a bad thing like it has been portrayed, having said that it isn't always a good thing but key to this is knowing the difference, labour has been extremely vocal about NHS privatisation as a political weapon but the public seems to ignore that it was labour that introduced privatisation into the NHS as the Tories didn't dare do it, it was also labour that introduced student fees and debt which they now try to throw back at the Tories saying they will get rid of them... it's fine listening to politics be it any party but unless you dig deep you are easily misled as of the 2xpoints I made which show gross hypocrisy.

 

[Darkwood]

I disagree.

The whole rhetoric around the referendum at the time was that if Scotland chose to leave the UK, then the Spanish would not allow them to stay in the EU and they would have to exit and then apply as a new member. (The Spanish had an eye on their own Basque and Catalonian secessionist movements)

The English political class made great mileage out of this saying that it was better to be in the UK and the EU.

This was not the case, had the UK left with Scotland and Scotland wished to re-enter the EU it would have to do so through the same route as any other nation, the fact that Scotland's GDP did not meet the criteria was one main factors and also as stated by the head of the EU at the time, if they did in deed join they would have to align with the Euro, even if this were to happen today those same rules would still apply and Scotland does not yet meet the criteria to join.
However, as Scotland was part of a previous membership it was mentioned that exceptional circumstances may lead to a possible passage and even the Euro would not be initially implemented (I stress initially but it is in legislation that this would be a given at a later date) .. so how can Scotland actually leave the UK, keep the pound and join the EU, in short it cannot and it is one stumbling block that Sturgeon has been asked time and time again but fails to answer in detail while often claiming it isn't a problem, if they accept the failed Euro then we have to look at a hard border too and that's not even going into the fact the UK prop's up the Scottish economy as Scotland has a deficit 3 times that of the UK, Sturgeon fails to recognise the hand that feeds Scotland and has done for the last 20yrs, the oil fields that used to be used as a argument in that Scotland can self support are no longer are a viable point given the rise in price and the diminishing stocks, this and fact the UK made it clear it wouldn't pass the industry over either kind of diminished the argument for independence, I would really be interested how as a country who does more than 80% of its trade direct to the UK will fair by losing its generous funding, its currency and its reliance of smooth trade with its neighbour just because Scotland's largest party is run by a ideological nationalist who has been determined to break away from the UK since she was a teen, this is a fixation which one women has as oppose to what is actually in Scotland's best interests.

Does Sturgeon command a large support 'Yes' as it isn't hard to pit country against country if you expose all the con's but ignore the pro's and that is where we stand currently, Scotlands education has failed terribly under the SNP with them falling way down the world tables which is an uncomfortable truth they do not like reminding of, education is key to any countries future economic status so as is often said, they need to get their own house in order before pointing the finger at others.

 

[baldelectrician]

This was not the case, had the UK left with Scotland and Scotland wished to re-enter the EU it would have to do so through the same route as any other nation
The EU would either have Scotland in and have them as part of the EU including the CFP or Scotland would be out and French / Spanish fishermen could not fish in Scottish waters at which point these fishermen may have gone bust.

the fact that Scotland's GDP did not meet the criteria was one main factors and also as stated by the head of the EU at the time, if they did in deed join they would have to align with the Euro, even if this were to happen today those same rules would still apply and Scotland does not yet meet the criteria to join.

These criteria are for joining the Euro Zone- Scotland cannot be in the Euro Zone as it would require (amongst other things)

1. Have her own currency (not there until indy)
2. Agree to join the Euro (promise to join at later unspecified date)
3. Join the exchange rate mechanism (voluntary)

As point 3 above is entirely voluntary then joining the Euro is not mandatory.

so how can Scotland actually leave the UK?
By voting for independence

About keeping the pound
Canada, Australia, USA, New Zealand, Ireland and others used Sterling after gaining independence.
Scotland could do the same as Ireland (from 1979 to 2000) who used the Punt (which had parity with Sterling).
In any event it would be up to Scotland- remember if Scotland chose not to use Sterling the f(UK) - former UK - would not have the oil, gas, electricity, whisky and all other sales allocated to the Sterling zone, this would unbalance sterling

Sturgeon fails to recognise the hand that feeds Scotland and has done for the last 20yrs,
Really.
I am getting tired of this - GERS was developed to make Scotland look poor.

the oil fields that used to be used as a argument in that Scotland can self support are no longer are a viable point given the rise in price and the diminishing stock
Oil is past peak and we need to move away from it- Scotland has 30% of EUROPE'S renewable potential, maybe that's the reason the UK does not want us to leave

this and fact the UK made it clear it wouldn't pass the industry over would keep an asset located another country's territorial waters either kind of diminished the argument for independence

, I would really be interested how as a country who does more than 80% of its trade direct to the UK
Points
If the former UK (fUK) decides not to trade with a newly independent Scotland the lights in the other parts of the UK will go out (Scotland produces almost 2 x electricity it needs plus 5 x oil and gas)
Under the excellent management of Westminster the UK has went from about 15% spare capacity on the National Grid to less than 3%

will fair by losing its generous funding
You mean our taxes paid by us back

, its currency and its reliance of smooth trade with its neighbour
Once we are out of the UK we will be in the EU- look at the way Ireland (re backstop) has been treated by the EU compared to the way Westminster treats Scotland (sit down, shut up and know your place)
Scotland will have 27 others at our back when we negotiate the trade deal with the former UK

Scotlands education has failed terribly under the SNP
We have had to endure cuts by Westminster (some schools in England are on a 4.5 day week, they are doing fund raising for books, pencils etc)

Jim Rogers Bloomberg video

Mhairi Black on Gers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1208170230754795520

There is quite a lot of differing opinions
One thing should be noted:
2013- support for Independence about 30% (UK) - of course you can have a referendum

2019- Support for indy at 50% - now (never) is the time

Why would the UK force Scotland to stay if we are subsidy junkies- the Tories are not known for their benevolence?

Want to see how Scotland is thought in the EU, see link below from the European Parlaiment from Alyn Smyth

 

[Baddegg]

I won’t pretend to know to any great depth the arguments put back and forth here (I don’t want to really but I’ll admit they are good from both sides) but I can’t understand how leaving one United Kingdom and joining another can be termed as “independence”? I think you’d be hard pressed to find any member of the EU to deny that the ultimate end goal (albeit long term as it stands) is one state controlled from Brussels.....what does Scotland gain here?.......

 

[baldelectrician]

..what does Scotland gain here?.......

Scotland gains full control of her affairs ( including the option to leave the EU any time we wish - unlike the current situation)
We also enter a union in which we have a veto as well as a say.
Add to that a Scotland inside the EU will have 27 countries at our back as opposed to the current situation we have in the UK where we are ignored and treated lie an abusive partner treats their spouse.

 

[DPG]

Give them the vote and if they vote to leave then fair enough. I know quite a few Scots, and only one of them is in the leave category. And only that same one has any time for Miss Sturgeon.

I personally hope they stay part of the UK

 

[baldelectrician]

Give them the vote and if they vote to leave then fair enough. I know quite a few Scots, and only one of them is in the leave category. And only that same one has any time for Miss Sturgeon.

That's the point
The Scottish Parliament (the SNP plus the Greens) have a majority for another independence referendum which is being ignored
If we are really bleeding the UK dry they would be throwing a referendum at us

had they given us lots more powers (as promised in the infamous VOW) and had we still been in the EU we would not be here now.

The UK cannot have it both ways
They are happy to have Boris Jonston as Prime Minister elected across the UK on 43.6% of the UK vote (25% in Scotland) yet ignore another result
The Tories specifically went in the the recent UK general election with a mantra stating 'send Nicola Sturgeon a message and vote Conservative to send a No to a second referendum message'

https://twitter.com/x/status/1206188069772283904

 

[rapparee]

Scotland gains full control of her affairs ( including the option to leave the EU any time we wish - unlike the current situation)
We also enter a union in which we have a veto as well as a say.
Add to that a Scotland inside the EU will have 27 countries at our back as opposed to the current situation we have in the UK where we are ignored and treated lie an abusive partner treats their spouse.

An obvious example is how the EU defended the interests of Ireland in the recent negotiations.

 

[Midwest]

I won’t pretend to know to any great depth the arguments put back and forth here (I don’t want to really but I’ll admit they are good from both sides) but I can’t understand how leaving one United Kingdom and joining another can be termed as “independence”? I think you’d be hard pressed to find any member of the EU to deny that the ultimate end goal (albeit long term as it stands) is one state controlled from Brussels.....what does Scotland gain here?.......

50% of the Scots hate the English more than they hate the French, see #186. The other 50% either live in the rest of the uk, or just hate SNP. I would suggest it’s up to them to decide.

 

[littlespark]

More than 50% voted in indyref1 to stay in the uk last time, and we knew damn well brexit was round the corner.

I’ll vote for any other party that will reverse the minimum pricing on alcohol.
I need to drive 7 miles to England to get cheaper booze
[automerge]1577299527[/automerge]
I’m going to pack the van with English booze when I take my daughter back up to Aberdeen and sell it to the students

 

[baldelectrician]

More than 50% voted in indyref1 to stay in the uk last time, and we knew damn well brexit was round the corner.

From the better together archive

 

[snowhead]

I'm not Scottish nor do I have any connections.
If there was a vote in the U.K on whether to allow Scotland an independence vote, then I'd vote yes, lets get it sorted out once and for all, again..

BUT the SNP need to be very carefull about what they wish for, just because they got in with a mandate for an E.U referendum doesn't mean that everyone that voted SNP would vote leave.
The SNP could easilly fall into the same trap as Labour, thinking they were going to win hands down, but fall on their face.

 

[Baddegg]

Farcical really this whole thing seems based on a hatred that’s not felt on both sides....I don’t know any English people, other than in jest, that want Scotland to leave myself included ?

 

[Darkwood]

The Scottish Parliament (the SNP plus the Greens) have a majority for another independence referendum which is being ignored
The SNP is a party with one goal it always has been, Scotland won the chance to hold a referendum and in Nichola Sturgeon own words it was stated it is a once in a generation chance, also as part of their campaign they made it clear if the Conservatives won with a majority it could lead to us leaving the EU through a referendum, as this was all part of the campaign and they still lost then they do not have a mandate to leave as reflected by her own words.
If we are really bleeding the UK dry they would be throwing a referendum at us

Scotland for the last 30yrs has been heavily subsidised by the the rest of us, its GDP deficit is 3 times greater than England and it in no way qualifies to even rejoin the EU if they stick to their usual strict entry terms, now it is fine making a loose claim that we would in this situation be throwing a referendum at you but the UK may save on the bailouts but as Scotland would see its economy hit harder and taxes rise it would see trade been damaged to the point it is cheaper to be together and pay into Scotland than it leave.

had they given us lots more powers (as promised in the infamous VOW) and had we still been in the EU we would not be here now.

The Irony in this comment can only be lost on a Remainer, so in essence you want to take more powers away from London which you can effectively vote against and make your case and instead hand them over to the EU who do not give you such rights.

The UK cannot have it both ways
They are happy to have Boris Jonston as Prime Minister elected across the UK on 43.6% of the UK vote (25% in Scotland) yet ignore another result

When you went to the poll booth in a general election or referendum on the EU you do so as a nation not a separate country, this is fully acknowledged and understood 'or should be' by any voter, in taking part you give losers consent, to make these claims you do is ignoring or been ignorant of how our democratic system works, I never heard anyone complain about the voting system until after they lost the vote.

The Tories specifically went in the the recent UK general election with a mantra stating 'send Nicola Sturgeon a message and vote Conservative to send a No to a second referendum message'

What part of United do you not understand, you are not voting as Scotland, you are voting a part of the United Kingdom, this argument is just SNP rhetoric that has no legal backing, my town voted to leave, the next town voted to remain but they do not start claiming they should be allowed to make there own mind up and be given special treatment .. again! The term is 'losers consent' and this is what you go into a voting booth knowing and if you do not then I am sorry but you need to educate yourself on the history of our democratic system... You have your own views and I have mine and even if you live in a area that has a majority that favours yours, it does not mean anything if this isn't reflected in the total tally of votes across the system, things do change when we discuss countries as a whole and you were given a referendum, it was clearly stated by the SNP that it was once in a generation opportunity and it was also clearly stated that if you voted to stay with the UK then you could be leaving the EU - you voted to stay thus there exists no mandate for another indyref - the problem we have is the SNP has nowhere to go or anything to do unless it is driving a desire to leave the UK because that is all the parties historical goal is, if the EU referendum never happened it would be something else driving it like say Sturgeon stubbed her big toe or something so lets call a referendum.

I would be happy to add citations of Sturgeons quotes from 2014, I would be happy to show you the amount the UK has supplemented Scotland over the last 30yrs and how it is the SNP's own survey that highlights all this but what I cannot do is explain how Scotland can survive outside the UK without suffering a 10% hit at losing our generous funding and without slamming hefty tax hikes on you all, given that your deficit is triple ours to start with. The claims the N Sea oil can support this have long since been debunked and can no longer even be factored into the equation given the diminishing stocks and relatively low cost of oil plus the push to move away from it anyway.

PS - I am not anti Scot as I have many friends who are Scottish, what I don't like is the SNP's deliberate attempt to try put a wedge between us, they may have had a case if the UK been supplemented by Scotland or even if there government was excelling and making the UK a laughing stock but that is far from the truth, given that per head Scottish people receive more in health education and many other areas it quite difficult to understand how they are failing so badly in these areas in comparison, if you leave then a massive funding supplement is lost to all these already failing key systems but maybe that is what it takes, maybe when the money is their own it might not keep throwing supplemented money to try fix a broken system, that is where Labour failed badly when they were booted out and left us skint.

 

[plugsandsparks]

At the moment, its got to be one step at a time. Lets implement UK ref 2016, leave the eu properly, let the dust settle, then deal with 2nd referendum. The border alone will be a nightmare depending one how the UK leaves the EU, if the NI border is anything to go by.

I do have a mistrust of the SNP that their barely hidden agenda is to stall the UK Brexit which i do have a problem with.

So i suspect the SNP may just have to wait their turn

 

[baldelectrician]

At the moment, its got to be one step at a time. Lets implement UK ref 2016, leave the eu properly, let the dust settle, then deal with 2nd referendum. The border alone will be a nightmare depending one how the UK leaves the EU, if the NI border is anything to go by.

I do have a mistrust of the SNP that their barely hidden agenda is to stall the UK Brexit which i do have a problem with.

So i suspect the SNP may just have to wait their turn

I disagree
Thats like saying let's watch the rest of the UK jump off a cliff and see what happens
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU and are (rightly) getting a differential deal, Scotland voted by a larger margin to stay and are being draged out
This wait and see is in essence undemocratic- it is saying to te Scottish Parliament - you cannot decide if and when you can leave, sit down, shut up and know your place. Democracy is what Westminster says and Westminster can pick and choose which parts it uses.

There is a March for independence in Glasgow on 11th January, the last one had over 100,000 ( equivalent to 1m in London as Scots are less than 10% of the population) yet received little or no coverage in UK media and was on RT, France 24. Euronews, German TV etc.

 

[DPG]

As I say, give them the vote (again) and see what happens.

 

[Zerax]

I disagree
Thats like saying let's watch the rest of the UK jump off a cliff and see what happens
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU and are (rightly) getting a differential deal, Scotland voted by a larger margin to stay and are being draged out
This wait and see is in essence undemocratic- it is saying to te Scottish Parliament - you cannot decide if and when you can leave, sit down, shut up and know your place. Democracy is what Westminster says and Westminster can pick and choose which parts it uses.

There is a March for independence in Glasgow on 11th January, the last one had over 100,000 ( equivalent to 1m in London as Scots are less than 10% of the population) yet received little or no coverage in UK media and was on RT, France 24. Euronews, German TV etc.

Firstly... can you please stop repeating that line about "jumping off cliffs" !!! It is simply highly emotive language used to scare people... that hasn't worked on most people, but seems to have scared you.

Secondly... the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK... no option was given to have locally implemented results. So it doesn't matter what the vote was in Scotland, Salisbury, Scarborough or indeed St Albans. The latter, if you remember, has just elected a Lib Dem MP... on a mandate of cancelling Brexit. So do you now suggest that we build a 30' high fence around that city and allow them to declare their allegiance to Juncker and co. ??

And lastly... please do enjoy your march on Jan 11th. In case it wasn't explained to you properly... it's all irrelevant. You may have 100,000 attend but what about the 100,000 that don't attend ?? the ones that want to remain in the union ?? If you want to demonstrate the will of the people you need to organise a referendum. Oh, hang on you already have... and it said remain. When will the penny drop ??

 

[baldelectrician]

Firstly... can you please stop repeating that line about "jumping off cliffs" !!! It is simply highly emotive language used to scare people... that hasn't worked on most people, but seems to have scared you.

Secondly... the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK... no option was given to have locally implemented results. So it doesn't matter what the vote was in Scotland, Salisbury, Scarborough or indeed St Albans. The latter, if you remember, has just elected a Lib Dem MP... on a mandate of cancelling Brexit. So do you now suggest that we build a 30' high fence around that city and allow them to declare their allegiance to Juncker and co. ??

And lastly... please do enjoy your march on Jan 11th. In case it wasn't explained to you properly... it's all irrelevant. You may have 100,000 attend but what about the 100,000 that don't attend ?? the ones that want to remain in the union ?? If you want to demonstrate the will of the people you need to organise a referendum. Oh, hang on you already have... and it said remain. When will the penny drop ??

Northern Ireland voted to stay in and are (rightly) staying so there is a locally implemented result there, if it is possible there it is possible in Scotland

Thank you for telling me democracy in Scotland is irrelevant my point is that the duly elected Scottish Parliament has voted for and requested a referendum
It's nice democracy where a country enters a union with a larger partner and can only leave when the larger 'equal' partner deems permission.

We had a referendum in 2014 and were told explicitly that if we voted NO to independence we would guarantee our place in the EU

I know you don't like the cliff scenario but that's a difference of opinion, Scotland and the rest of the UK are in a voluntary union and Scotland (through her parliament) has decided we want to put that choice to the people in 2020 (or the following year)

 

[Zerax]

Northern Ireland voted to stay in and are (rightly) staying so there is a locally implemented result there, if it is possible there it is possible in Scotland

Thank you for telling me democracy in Scotland is irrelevant my point is that the duly elected Scottish Parliament has voted for and requested a referendum
It's nice democracy where a country enters a union with a larger partner and can only leave when the larger 'equal' partner deems permission.

We had a referendum in 2014 and were told explicitly that if we voted NO to independence we would guarantee our place in the EU

I know you don't like the cliff scenario but that's a difference of opinion, Scotland and the rest of the UK are in a voluntary union and Scotland (through her parliament) has decided we want to put that choice to the people in 2020 (or the following year)

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

 

[baldelectrician]

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.
NI are effectively in the UK and the single market / customs union and they will have (correctly) a chance to vote on keeping it through the assembly at Stormont whilst Scotland cannot have a vote despite the SNP having yet another win whilst having a 2nd indyref in their manifesto
Whilst you are on about how many votes do we want.... the answer is as many as the democratically elected Scottish Parliament wish to vote for.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)
Scotland is not an 'individual area' it is (apparently) an 'equal partner in the UK family of nations' as an equal partner Scotland will have the right to change her mind as the circumstances change

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !
Like the 'odd' democracy where Westminster politicians wanted a 2nd EU referendum, or where the Conservative UK government brought the leave deal back on several occasions- so it's OK for Westminster to change their mind as long as the pesky Scots know their place?

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

• The Scottish Government use the powers they have, they have control over :
• Local rates - they have exempted lots of small businesses from rates (something the UK government are only talking about)
• They have changed the income tax system so now people earning under £26993 will pay the same or less tax than the rest of the UK. People on the minimum wage are better off. They control less than 25% of the taxes (only PAYE earned income)
• They changed the building standards in 2007 and 2014 to prevent and effectively ban the cladding used in Greenfell from being used in Scotland.
• The control some aspects of benefits (only 15%) but they have stopped using ATOS and introduced a carers supplement as well as payments to reduce child poverty.

Detailed above

From the map below (this is from the past few weeks) you can see that Scotland is now not in the UK / EU top areas for poverty

Scotland has very little powers (and over 100 have been removed in the past year), we need out of the UK as the UK is politically right wing and Scotland is politically left wing.

 

[rapparee]

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

You are quite correct, NI is de jure staying in the UK customs union, however they will de facto be in the EU customs union and regulatorily aligned with all European laws.

This is why the DUP are concerned about an border in the Irish Sea.

 

[Midwest]

Why doesn’t Scotland wait to see how Brexit pans out, then if it’s a disaster, have a indyref, leave and rejoin the EU?

 

[baldelectrician]

Why doesn’t Scotland wait to see how Brexit pans out, then if it’s a disaster, have a indyref, leave and rejoin the EU?

Why stay when most Scots WANT a referendum (the % of people who will vote for indy is on a knife edge at present) where there IS a mandate for a 2nd indyref.

On my own personal side I would rather have the 2nd indyref in 2020 or 2021 for several reasons

1. The UK will be out of the EU and then the EU will markedly change their public opinion on Scotland re-entering / staying in.
2. People in Scotland will have had more Boris as PM (and will wake up and smell the coffee)
3. Labour in Scotland are going through a crisis - several MSP's and a former Labour Scottish first minister now support the mandate for a 2nd referendum on indy
4. 50,000 people pass on each year in Scotland- the demographics are changing as more older (> 70% NO to indy) voters pass on and they are replaced with people who will either vote YES or not vote at all. The longer Boris waits the higher the YES vote is likely to be.

Much as I respect the UK's decision to leave the EU it was not a Scottish decision (Scotland voted 68% to stay in the EU)

Sometimes when your 'partner' is making something you believe to be a mistake you can persuade them, but if opinions cannot be reconciled then its either an agree to disagree or part the ways on a matter such as this.

Former First Minister says Scotland is being treated with contempt

The last few years have solidified my belief in Scottish independence - we need out and to be good neighbours not stuck in a relationship where we are forced to stay- like the Hotel California (Scotland can check out any time we like but can never leave)
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People in Scottish Labour have to realise no one owes them a living any longer

Why can’t the Labour party, with its great history since 1900, come up with an alternative that can counter independence...

www.holyrood.com

more

 

[Midwest]

So you agree with me to stay, see how things progress, if it’s pants have your vote then.

Why does the SNP want to do it the other way?

 

[baldelectrician]

So you agree with me to stay, see how things progress, if it’s pants have your vote then.

Why does the SNP want to do it the other way?

No, I do not agree- I want a referendum and to leave the UK no matter what

The SNP want the power to have a referendum in the Scottish Parliament and then the Scottish Parliament can hold a referendum when they want
It's a matter of principle- the Scottish Parliament should retain control over ALL Scottish matters, not just the ones handed down by our overlords

I just want Scotland out of the UK- no more Tory governments- Scotland has not voted Tory since the 1950's yet suffers Tory policy and austerity

 

[Midwest]

Fair enough, been nice knowing you.

 

[Baddegg]

It was the United Kingdom that voted....not England not Scotland not wales and not northern island....the U.K. as a whole voted on brexit

 

[baldelectrician]

Fair enough, been nice knowing you.

I am not anti English, just anti-Westminster
I want Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK to be less of a master servant (like we have now) and a equal neighbour (like that between the UK and the Republic of Ireland).
We don't want 'special' treatment just equal treatment
[automerge]1577372541[/automerge]

It was the United Kingdom that voted....not England not Scotland not wales and not northern island....the U.K. as a whole voted on brexit

Yep and that's fine - the UK can leave the EU, but Scotland can decide to go a different path- then we all get what we want.

 

[Baddegg]

Not while it’s part of the uk it can’t, surely we should ALL have a vote on who leaves and who stays then? After all it affects us all not just the Scottish....

 

[rapparee]

Not while it’s part of the uk it can’t, surely we should ALL have a vote on who leaves and who stays then? After all it affects us all not just the Scottish....

That doesn't work. It's like the EU member states voting to keep the UK within the EU. It affects them too.

That train of thought is very dangerous. Surely the idea of self declaration is safer.

 

[Baddegg]

That doesn't work. It's like the EU member states voting to keep the UK within the EU. It affects them too.

That train of thought is very dangerous. Surely the idea of self declaration is safer.

I’m inclined to agree with that @rapparee, but this is effectively breaking up a country

 

[rapparee]

I’m inclined to agree with that @rapparee, but this is effectively breaking up a country

I understand where you're coming from but I wouldn't worry about it.

The break up won't exactly be the end of the world. Scotland will still be there. I can't see them building hadrian's wall to keep the British out. Obviously an independent Scotland's closest friend will be England.

God knows what will happen here in Ireland. Brexit threatened to re-partition the country but now it looks like there will be a border in the Irish sea. Which isn't great, personally I depend on next day delivery fro RS Components to keep machines running.

 

[Darkwood]

Northern Ireland is only in a transitional period until the end of 2020, this is where the EU and the UK must accept either the failure of talks and go into WTO or agree a deal, NI is been treated different only on a short term basis because of the tensions between its volatile political status of which Scotland does not have, to say they are getting something while Scotland is been deprived is taking the situation out of context to an extreme, it still stands we all went as one nation into one vote to honour the will of the people on the understanding that we had the consent of the loser, regardless of what list you provide with regards to Scotland having made positive steps you fail to address the fact that most of that list is the same throughout the UK, you also have failed to reflect on the major elephant in the room, your deficit is 3 times higher than the rest of the UK, you are heavily shored up by the rest of the UK and you have no way of making up that shortfall unless you left while heavily taxing Scottish people, the charts I refer to were produced by the SNP themselves so again I ask, how do you expect to bridge a massive 10% prop up as well as putting been cut away from the new world trade low tariff or tariff free deals the UK already has in the bag.... I am one for been a nationalist and proud of your country but biting your nose of to spite your face is a life long scar to bare... if you can justify your position baldelectrics I would be the first to agree with you but all I here is ignorance of how our voting system works as four nations and rhetoric of Sturgeon which is mostly misdirection from the reality and baseless.
[automerge]1577377127[/automerge]
I will add NI under the current agreed deal will be out of both the customs union and the free market, they will only be subject to customs regulation if the receive goods external to the EU and wish to pass them on to the EU, this account for a small percentage of their trade but the pro EUers out there make it sound like thay are having the best of Both worlds, this is not anywhere near the truth, this is totally different to the maybot agreement that many still believe is the proposition here.

 

[ferg]

Not everyone who voted SNP wants to leave the UK.

Brexit was a on the cards before the Indyref.

Promoters of Indyref2 are banging on about it incessantly in the hope of getting their own way at a time when nearly everyone is disillusioned with politics. Traditionally a time when people vote for odd things.

We had a referendum and we voted to stay in the UK.

For me that's enough time and effort wasted on it for now.

Perhaps the politicians we elected should spend their time and effort dealing with the clear social problems we have in Scotland and less time blaming someone else.

 

[littlespark]

Maybe London should be an independent country and the rest becomes the UK?
Totally different economic conditions there.

The Queen can move out to the midlands somewhere.


Merry Christmas. Goodwill to all, and all that.

 

[DPG]

Yawn. Vote. Etc. Sturgeon. Boring. Repetitive.

 

[baldelectrician]

Not everyone who voted SNP wants to leave the UK.

Yep,I agree- lets settle it with a referendum as circumstances have changed.

Brexit was a on the cards before the Indyref.
Yes it was mentioned but seemed unrealistic.
Even Ruth Davidson said do in a TV debate

Promoters of Indyref2 are banging on about it incessantly in the hope of getting their own way at a time when nearly everyone is disillusioned with politics. Traditionally a time when people vote for odd things.
Sorry- the SNP want independence (many people are also surprised to know that bears $hit in the woods as well)

We had a referendum and we voted to stay in the UK.
Yep and we were told a pack of lies in the VOW (near federalism as possible), we ended up getting full control of road signs, 15% of welfare benefits - the ATOS ran pile of poo, and control of income tax - earned income only.

For me that's enough time and effort wasted on it for now.
I disagree, we need more powers- it is notable that every time support for independence seems to rise the 'federalism' stories appear.
All we need is Gordon Brown out of his crypt to tell us how lucky we are

Perhaps the politicians we elected should spend their time and effort dealing with the clear social problems we have in Scotland and less time blaming someone else.
The Scottish Government have done better than the UK government see the post on poverty (already posted earlier) below.

Scotland is ran better and the SNP have got on with the day job
Thousands of council houses (over 1400 in my local authority alone),
NHS procurement Scotland -the Scottish Government require health boards to work together (unlike the NHS video earlier of things in other parts of the UK)
Keeping the nurses bursary
Scottish Futures Trust - remember as we are beholden to UK procurement rules we MUST use PFI (and it's problems), the Scottish Government set up Scottish Futures Trust - a SG owned and managed PFI -Lite organisation to cap excess costs and return profits back to the Scottish Government.

The problem is the Scottish Government are better at running things than Westminster and people fail to notice the better infrastructure (such as broadband roll out)

Scotland Pick BT for Part of £600m Superfast Broadband Rollout

The Scottish Government today announced that BT is their ONLY bidder for two of the three areas under the new £600m R100 (Reaching 100%) project, which origina

www.ispreview.co.uk

 

[ferg]

So to sum up.. You didn't get your own way and you will keep banging on about it until you do?
Fair enough. It's good to be passionate about something.

If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.

Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.

Presumably that's Westminsters fault though.

If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.

I won't hold my breath though.

 

[baldelectrician]

So to sum up.. You didn't get your own way and you will keep banging on about it until you do?
It's all about democracy- we have a Scottish Parliament and it should decide our future, its not about 'banging on' it's about Scots electing MSP's and these same MSP's expressing the will of these Scots in a proportional type system.
No, I want independence for Scotland, and I know that the moment the SNP are a means to an end.
Once we get independence the SNP will be out on their ear and we can vote for a Scottish Government to run our affairs and kick them out if we don't like them.
At the moment we vote Labour / SNP and get Tory.

If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.
They are doing better than the lot in Westminster by a country mile but if they fail we can kick them out.

Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.
I know, this is a failing. it is not only Westminsters fault although if the Scottish budget had not been cut by £1.5 bn per year things might be better.

If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.
They are trying- there are police officers in most secondary schools full time and there is also a plan to put mental health nurses / therapists in to schools to help treat issues before they become a problem
You need to accept that a large driver of depression and mental illness is poverty and austerity is a Westminster driven issue and not a necessity.
If you have no money to feed and heat a home then mental problems will surface and worsen

 

[Midwest]

Lies, downright lies, then statistics. Here’s another one of those maps.

 

[Zerax]

We don't want 'special' treatment just equal treatment

Well... that one is easily solved... can you give back to England the 9.4 BILLION a year extra that we give to Scotland ? That would help to make things more equal.

 

[Midwest]

I’m not making the argument, but I’ve always wondered why England doesn’t have its own Parliament like the other UK countries?

 

[Zerax]

I’m not making the argument, but I’ve always wondered why England doesn’t have its own Parliament like the other UK countries?

And... thinking about it... surely the whole of the UK should have a vote on Scottish independence and the breaking up of the union ?

 

[electric al]

Are you Nicola sturgeon in disguise bald ? Should the SNP ever get what they wish for they would very quickly have to find another axe to grind in order to mask the disappointment. The snp are a pressure group more than a political movement. Alex Salmond the founder has created division and exploited nationalism to further his own agenda . The Scots are a very proud people and many see it for what it is .

 

[JK-Electrical]

And... thinking about it... surely the whole of the UK should have a vote on Scottish independence and the breaking up of the union ?

The West Lothian question:

West Lothian question - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question