Level of qualification needed to obtain licence?

[D Skelton]

I am genuinely interested to see what others thoughts are on this matter.

Hypothetically speaking, the government disbands the current scam schemes and puts out to tender a GasSafe style system for electricians. Costs are lower, standards maintained, enforcement carried out blah blah blah.... Lets just say the new system is hunky dory for arguments sake. The main difference however is that in order to practise as an electrician in the UK, you now legally have to hold an electricians licence. The word 'electrician' is also protected by statute from fraudulent and unlawful use and only useable by licence holders.

I want to know what qualifications you guys think an individual would have to posses in order to gain a licence and be legally allowed to call themselves an electrician.

I want to make it clear that I'm not into this becoming a Electrical Trainee bashing thread, I am genuinely interested as to be honest, I am currently on the fence and would like to hear your views.

 

[Megavolt]

I would of thought even tho I won't be popular that what ever it is it should be renewed every 5 or so years and be modular i.e qual for domestic separate one for commercial and so on.

What are your thoughts on the matter

 

[danzor]

2391

 

[uksparks]

I would probably say your 17th regs, NVQ3, 2394/95 or 2391, or a min level of three for testing etc. I think it's probably fair to say you have to draw the line somewhere and saying you must have 2391 or equivalent will turf out a chunk.

I would say anyone who had gone as far as obtaining 2391, 94/95 genuinely has a passion / vested interest in wanting to learn the trade and is seen to have me some form of recognised effort.

I know there's a lot of very qualified by experience people out there who do not have 2391 who would then possibly end up peeved off.

Just my opinion.

 

[D Skelton]

I would probably say your 17th regs, NVQ3, 2394/95 or 2391, or a min level of three for testing etc. I think it's probably fair to say you have to draw the line somewhere and saying you must have 2391 or equivalent will turf out a chunk.

I would say anyone who had gone as far as obtaining 2391, 94/95 genuinely has a passion / vested interest in wanting to learn the trade and is seen to have me some form of recognised effort.

I know there's a lot of very qualified by experience people out there who do not have 2391 who would then possibly end up peeved off.

Just my opinion.

Completely disagree mate. It's a common misconception that the 2391/94/95 sorts the wheat from the chaff. Too many 5WWs hold it as they have been schooled for the exam and dragged through it on their course.

I specifically left this qual out of the poll for this very reason

 

[Andy78]

I would say the JIB grading system has had definitions well clarified for a long time. This would make a good starting point in any further official discussions imo.

 

[bigdavs83]

Out of interest on this topic. I sat my trade test and a couple of weeks later I got sent through my "craftsmans certificate" which indicated I was now qualified to svq level 3. Is the certificate just a scottish thing? Obviously the svq and nvq are the same thing. As soon as you have that you are essentially a qualified spark. But that doesn't mean you know anything it just means you can pass a preordained examination. I would personally go down the competency renewal every 5 or so years. Just to make sure you are up on the latest regs and current advances in the industry

 

[JD6400]

For me it is the 2391 , not sure about 2394 / 2395 as I thought these were just a watered down version of the 2391 for all the side trackers that now infest our once proud industry !
I hope I am wrong about them being watered down , but if judging by the last bloke that " was " employed by us with these qualifications I very much doubt it !?

 

[D Skelton]

Out of interest on this topic. I sat my trade test and a couple of weeks later I got sent through my "craftsmans certificate" which indicated I was now qualified to svq level 3. Is the certificate just a scottish thing? Obviously the svq and nvq are the same thing. As soon as you have that you are essentially a qualified spark. But that doesn't mean you know anything it just means you can pass a preordained examination. I would personally go down the competency renewal every 5 or so years. Just to make sure you are up on the latest regs and current advances in the industry

I have to admit my ignorance on what the 'SVQ' actually is. The English NVQ3 contains the practical as well as just the theory. You have to sit the course, learn the science and principles, pass the exams, complete practical exams, complete an on site portfolio (proof of experience) and after all that, do a 4 day AM2 practical and theory to show you can put into practice everything you have learned over four years.

Is the SVQ the same as this? If so then yeah, I guess this is what you need to be a 'fully' qualified spark

 

[D Skelton]

For me it is the 2391 , not sure about 2394 / 2395 as I thought these were just a watered down version of the 2391 for all the side trackers that now infest our once proud industry !
I hope I am wrong about them being watered down , but if judging by the last bloke that " was " employed by us with these qualifications I very much doubt it !?

Read my post #5 mate.

If anything the new 94 and 95 combined is a tiny weeny bit harder than the 2391 IMHO, but it is still pi$$ easy for any spark worth his weight.

 

[uksparks]

Completely disagree mate. It's a common misconception that the 2391/94/95 sorts the wheat from the chaff. Too many 5WWs hold it as they have been schooled for the exam and dragged through it on their course.

I specifically left this qual out of the poll for this very reason

Can you just clarify for me what your option 1 on the poll is. I have the the 2356, I think is that been replaced by the 2357. What other qualifications are in the diploma? Thanks.

 

[PEG]

As already mentioned,there would have to be divisions made to identify areas of "expertise",which invariably would mean multiple tests/qualification requirements etc,for the lads who bridge the domestic/industrial/commercial industries. These additions would in all probability carry separate time and cost implications. This would only result in a similar scenario to today,where lads either do not bother (and this will ALWAYS apply) or have to carry the cost burden whilst competing against those who,as said,do not bother. Your strive for a solution is admirable,but you will always have to accept a certain compromise. That said,your striving will always have my support.

 

[JD6400]

Read my post #5 mate.

If anything the new 94 and 95 combined is a tiny weeny bit harder than the 2391 IMHO, but it is still pi$$ easy for any spark worth his weight.

I started typing at post 2 , and it had already got to post 8 by the time I had finished !
Now you can see why I have no website !!!! :leaving:




Posting Quick Reply - Please Wait
I do not mind admitting that I found the 2391 far from a doddle , admittedly I passed first time with flying colours . but over half the class did not , mind it was near on 10 years ago now so maybe standards have dropped ?

 

[D Skelton]

Can you just clarify for me what your option 1 on the poll is. I have the the 2356, I think is that been replaced by the 2357. What other qualifications are in the diploma? Thanks.

2356 is the NVQ, the 2357 is the new replacement, so yes, if you have the tech cert (2330), the NVQ (2356) and the AM2 then you would be classed in my eyes as a fully qualified spark.

It is important to note the difference between the 2356 and the 2365. Both entirely different lol

 

[uksparks]

Unfortunately I don't have the 2330, but we all have to start somewhere. I suppose the other option would be that you have to sit in front of a panel of people such as your good self and be interegated until you have been bled dry then apply some of your knowledge to a really nasty test rig or something.

 

[D Skelton]

I started typing at post 2 , and it had already got to post 8 by the time I had finished !
Now you can see why I have no website !!!! :leaving:

Haha, no worries bud

Posting Quick Reply - Please Wait
I do not mind admitting that I found the 2391 far from a doddle , admittedly I passed first time with flying colours . but over half the class did not , mind it was near on 10 years ago now so maybe standards have dropped ?

Nothing to be ashamed of there mate, the thing is, in your day people were schooled to achieve a certain level of knowledge, exams were harder to pass, standard of work was higher!

Nowadays, the exams are still the same (hardness wise), but people are schooled to pass the exams rather than to achieve a certain level of knowledge, exams are easier to pass but the standard of work is lower.

 

[D Skelton]

Unfortunately I don't have the 2330

So you have the 2356 but not the 2330? What quals do you have? You're not mistaking the 2365 for the 2356?

 

[guest119]

Put it all back to where it was, and still is in Jocklandshire.
Run by the JIB/SJIB and defined descriptions of the grades including the one about an electrician cannot work on his own. Needs to be approved.
The system was not broken so why did they try to fix it (fixit, geezzz).

Boydy

 

[D Skelton]

Keep the opinions coming!

 

[uksparks]

I suppose though like anything, bits of paper are not always the best answer, someone might have no qualifications, but can demonstrate better skills and have more hands on experience. But for a way of obtaining a licence it's not going to work saying how many rewires have you done (clearly we will know who would own licence number 10000001 if it did work that way) so it really would have to be by way of recognised qualification.

 

[D Skelton]

I suppose however it is done there will be people who will lose out!

Politics for me is about doing the best you can for the greatest amount of people. You'll never please everyone. But this is why decisions need to be made by the masses for the masses!

 

[uksparks]

So you have the 2356 but not the 2330? What quals do you have? You're not mistaking the 2365 for the 2356?

2392 - level 2 testing
2393 - building regs
2394 - level 3 testing
2382 - regs
2377 - pat testing
2356 - level 3 NVQ3 services and systems or whatever it's called.

Im going to be doing to 2395 in march so can then upgrade to approved.

 

[J S]

It's a NECESSITY that you have to be employed by a company as an Apprentice or Adult Trainee up here in Scotland in order to sit the SVQ3 which is the same as the NVQ3. (Im starting in Aug) It incorporates everything you mentioned and is three years long, with a Trade Test at the end to prove you are competent in everything you have learned over the years. Although by the looks of things the word 'competent' gets thrown about far too willy-nilly these days.

Maybe i'm old fashioned but to me a trade's a trade. It should be worked for and respected. Not given away to people with more money than integrity. I'm in full support mr, keep it up.

 

[JD6400]

Haha, no worries bud




Nothing to be ashamed of there mate, the thing is, in your day people were schooled to achieve a certain level of knowledge, exams were harder to pass, standard of work was higher!

Nowadays, the exams are still the same (hardness wise), but people are schooled to pass the exams rather than to achieve a certain level of knowledge, exams are easier to pass but the standard of work is lower.

I am not sure how to take that !mg_smile:
I am only 37 , I thought you were about that age as well .
Joking apart , I no what you mean though , I know of several so called sparks that have gone on guaranteed to pass crash courses !?
I believe we should have to resit some form of exam at least every 5 - 10 years though !

 

[D Skelton]

I am not sure how to take that !mg_smile:

I mean on average people who completed electrical courses 10 years ago would probably have gained slightly more knowledge than those who are schooled for exams nowadays.

I am only 37 , I thought you were about that age as well .

Yeah I'm about that age, minus 10 years! lol

Joking apart , I no what you mean though , I know of several so called sparks that have gone guaranteed to pass crash courses !?

I have seen it with my own eyes mate, people who wouldn't even be competent to wire a plug passing the 2391!

I believe we should have to resit some form of exam at least every 5 - 10 years though !

Fully agreed!

 

[uksparks]

I have seen it with my own eyes mate, people who wouldn't even be competent to wire a plug passing the 2391!

I can honestly believe that!

 

[JD6400]

27! you are switched on ! Fair play to you .

 

[D Skelton]

27! you are switched on ! Fair play to you .

Why thank you Sir!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

renewal every 5 years...

with the possible phantom of spot visits by a hit team to beefen it up....

 

[Engineer54]

Without any doubt whatsoever in my mind, Electricians should be holders of any of the fundamental core qualifications (previous and/or present), the newest being G&G 2357 Lv 3, accompanied by AM2 and Lv 3 NVQ, for the newer graduates. Older C&G holders, say 2360 wouldn't need the AM2 or NVQ as their apprenticeship would have included a good all round work experience, that just isn't seen too often these days.

It's open for discussion as to what requirements other grades may require in terms of qualifications and experience, it's just essential that you get it right for the fundamental term of ''Qualified Electrician''

One thing's for sure, the term ''Domestic Installer'' should be eradicated from any form of electrical trade designation. You are either a Qualified Electrician or you're NOT!!

 

[D Skelton]

spot visits by a hit team

Gestapo style!!!

 

[uksparks]

One thing's for sure, the term ''Domestic Installer'' should be eradicated from any form of electrical trade designation. You are either a Qualified Electrician or you're NOT!!

Hopefully by May on renewal, I'll have upgraded to approved so I wouldn't have to be driving my van with a red face of embarrassment.

 

[guest119]

Hopefully by May on renewal, I'll have upgraded to approved so I wouldn't have to be driving my van with a red face of embarrassment.

Do you mean approved installer or approved electrician?

Boydy

 

[uksparks]

NICEIC Approved Contractor

 

[D Skelton]

Hopefully by May on renewal, I'll have upgraded to approved so I wouldn't have to be driving my van with a red face of embarrassment.

No offence but more fool you mate. I'm 'approved' by Elecsa (or at least I will be for the next three months) and I pay £300 less than those 'approved' by the NIC. Their 'domestic installer' category is purely marketing gumpf designed to get more money out of you for the very reason you have stated!

"Give him a badge that he will be embarressed to wear and he'll be forced to stump up the extra cash to be called something more appropriate"

I tell you what, I am going to set up a competent persons scheme right now! I'm gonna call it Rommel Certification Ltd and to be a member you have to pay me £400+VAT. With that I'll give you a pony two hour assessment and a badge to wear, on the badge will be the words "Stupid ape like creature".

Or.... Pay me 700+VAT and I'll give you another two hour pony assessment and I'll give you a badge with the words "genius" on it?

Which one ya gonna choose chump?

 

[ipf]

I did my A,B and C certs, to 14th Edition over 4 years, back in the 70's and, obviously, updates of the various editions.
Think I'm right in saying they were the C&G 2361, 2362 and 2363.

I'm wondering what today's equivalent of the C cert is, if any, and hence which level to select.

It was a very much sought after qualification and the vast majority were content with the B cert for approved electrician status.

 

[uksparks]

I totally agree, I just prefere to stay with the NIC as unfortunately we live in a world where more people seem to have heard of them or recognise them, or even only use NIC electricians. I do accept your point, but I'll stay where I am and be a self certified fool.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm off to sleep now anyway as up early. Night all.

 

[HandySparks]

Bit of a tricky one for me. If I tick any of the first three options, I'll be like a turkey voting for Christmas. It looks like I'm seriously under-qualified.

Not sure what to suggest, but you need to make provision for those who've acquired their technical knowledge other than by the conventional route. Reading between the lines, I recon that there are a few of us on here.

I wouldn't mind doing another couple of evening courses and/or an extended on-site assessment, but be careful who you're going to exclude.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I didn't enrol with NIC partly because of the domestic installer tag. Felt it may limit any possible future commercial works. I also dislike the NICs attitude generally.

I have 2330 L3, 2391, 2382. I do not have NVQ and am glad as a couple of lads I know that did it said it was a tin pot course. Ok, it sort of proves practical experience but is a doddle to pass as far as I am aware. The 2391 is meant to be for actual working sparks is it not??? If so, then the course providers are partly at fault for letting any bugler do it. It certainly should never be an add-on course at the end of a Electrical Trainee course.

Personally I found the 2391 fairly tricky and only 50% of the class passed it.

I think a la Kato style would be more interesting for any random spot checks!

 

[overskilled]

Personally I'd go with a system where you have to requalify every 5 years, with practical tests that anyone can take...that would mean that any of the self employed bods (like yours truly) who are going through a dry patch can still prove competency (heck why not bash it, 2382 and 2394/5 into one course....)

 

[overskilled]

Though the way things are going sites are going to become closed shops more and more...but not by the unions...by the employers, and we will all suffer.......wages end up getting stomped down further..
I sadly can see this "electricians licensing scheme" creeping up and up in price to where the smaller players get pushed out, where the bigger players end up paying peanuts per person put through, or set up their own colleges to solely train their own staff (with all the farcicalness that goes on now) or runs a site with 25 mates and one "licenced electrician" (or worse 30 sites and one licenced electrician)
I admire what your trying to do...but I don't think its going to work and vested interests are going to make sure it doesn't work for anyone but them....any legislation is going to be watered down to the point where it is utterly meaningless.....why else do you think big corporations "donate" to political parties........getting as bad as the us system.....

 

[Engineer54]

Though the way things are going sites are going to become closed shops more and more...but not by the unions...by the employers, and we will all suffer.......wages end up getting stomped down further..
I sadly can see this "electricians licensing scheme" creeping up and up in price to where the smaller players get pushed out, where the bigger players end up paying peanuts per person put through, or set up their own colleges to solely train their own staff (with all the farcicalness that goes on now)or runs a site with 25 mates and one "licenced electrician" (or worse 30 sites and one licenced electrician)
I admire what your trying to do...but I don't think its going to work and vested interests are going to make sure it doesn't work for anyone but them....any legislation is going to be watered down to the point where it is utterly meaningless.....why else do you think big corporations "donate" to political parties........getting as bad as the us system.....

How can that happen??

That's what the JIB/SJIB are there to stop!! It's also up to you and every other electrician not to allow that state of affairs to even start, let alone get a foot hold. You've seen what happens when you allow profit based organisations into our industry, so DON'T let it happen again!!

Nothing wrong with companies setting up their own training schools, so long as the national qualification criteria remains the same. I was trained myself by a company that had it's own trades training school facilities. If anything this idea should be encouraged!!

All electricians will need to be liecensed, be they domestic, commercial or industrial, again be they installation electricians or factory line maintenance... That's the whole point of having a ''National Register of Qualified Electricians'', no areas left open for abuse...

 

[UNG]

I did my A,B and C certs, to 14th Edition over 4 years, back in the 70's and, obviously, updates of the various editions.
Think I'm right in saying they were the C&G 2361, 2362 and 2363.

I'm wondering what today's equivalent of the C cert is, if any, and hence which level to select.

It was a very much sought after qualification and the vast majority were content with the B cert for approved electrician status.

Don't think there is a C cert equivalent these days the pass rate on the old C cert dropped so low C & G just did away with the course and exam about 7 or 8 years ago

Many lads never did the C cert as very few if any employers would pay Technician rate

Bit of a tricky one for me. If I tick any of the first three options, I'll be like a turkey voting for Christmas. It looks like I'm seriously under-qualified.

Not sure what to suggest, but you need to make provision for those who've acquired their technical knowledge other than by the conventional route. Reading between the lines, I recon that there are a few of us on here.

I wouldn't mind doing another couple of evening courses and/or an extended on-site assessment, but be careful who you're going to exclude.

Not sure what provision or dispensation you would expect if your qualifications fall short of the required level to obtain a licence my thinking would be some form of restricted licence with a number of years allowed to qualify at the level required to obtain an unrestricted licence after this period if the required standard is not met then no further licences would be issued until the qualification requirement is met

Though the way things are going sites are going to become closed shops more and more...but not by the unions...by the employers, and we will all suffer.......wages end up getting stomped down further..
I sadly can see this "electricians licensing scheme" creeping up and up in price to where the smaller players get pushed out, where the bigger players end up paying peanuts per person put through, or set up their own colleges to solely train their own staff (with all the farcicalness that goes on now) or runs a site with 25 mates and one "licenced electrician" (or worse 30 sites and one licenced electrician)
I admire what your trying to do...but I don't think its going to work and vested interests are going to make sure it doesn't work for anyone but them....any legislation is going to be watered down to the point where it is utterly meaningless.....why else do you think big corporations "donate" to political parties........getting as bad as the us system.....

If "ALL" work has to be carried out by licensed electricians then this to my way of thinking would mean by using the 25 mates and one spark the employer and any of the mates doing electrical work would be possibly breaking the law


With the proliferation of the quick and even quicker courses in the last few years any true and proper licensing scheme will probably leave most of those trained this way out in the cold and playing catch up unless we end up with some half baked, half cocked licensing scheme that issues licences to those already assessed by a current scheme. Back in the 70's when I was at college the training covered domestic, commercial and industrial once you qualified you were a spark you where not pigeon holed into one sector over another and I believe the training should move back this way if you have never learnt anything about three phase how the hell can you recognise and understand some of the faults in a single phase installation that occur because there is a fault external to the premises in the DNO's local network
If you want to add endorsements or addition skills on a licence fine but not domestic, commercial and industrial

 

[steve.b]

Level 3 diploma (incorporating NVQ3 and AM2 [currently the C&G 2357] =Fully Qualified Electrician:hurray: Full Stop (or equivalent?????).

C&G 2357 = Health and Safety legislation, Environmental legislation, Practices and procedures for overseeing and organising the work environment. Principles of planning and selection for the installation of electrotechnical equipment and systems. Practices and procedures for the preparation and installation of wiring systems and electrotechnical equipment. Cable termination. Inspection and testing. Fault finding and Electrical principles.

 

[Hawkmoon]

I have voted 'level 3 diploma' on your poll -

In my day the AM2 was available only to those beginning training at the age of 17 (apprentice route) so practical experience should be considered as one of your 'or equivalent' options.

I believe the 236 1&2 or NVQ L3 should be minimum in the area of core theory.

I see the 2391 (and equivalents) & 17th ed to be supplemental qualifications not core - though these should also be compulsory (including regular updating).

Problem is the government have already deemed as competent those who have achieved much less (Electrical Trainee etc) - so I can see compromises coming.

 

[Knobhead]

My C&G certificates don’t have a number.
They are that old!
They were issued under the Union of Lancashire and Cheshire Institutes as an Electrical Technician.

So am I qualified or not?


That said.
I want our trade shut of the Electrical Trainee’s. I was proud to be a “time served” electrician. It’s worth jack ---- now!

 

[KAS1]

JIB grading, that's it, now non JIB employees can obtain the grade if they meet the requirements and that's good enough IMO, years gone by non JIB employees did not have a register as such, now they can obtain a JIB card if they fulfill the requirements and then practice at the grade level and should not have to pay these scams stupid money.

 

[m top]

I would probably say your 17th regs, NVQ3, 2394/95 or 2391, or a min level of three for testing etc. I think it's probably fair to say you have to draw the line somewhere and saying you must have 2391 or equivalent will turf out a chunk.

I would say anyone who had gone as far as obtaining 2391, 94/95 genuinely has a passion / vested interest in wanting to learn the trade and is seen to have me some form of recognised effort.

I know there's a lot of very qualified by experience people out there who do not have 2391 who would then possibly end up peeved off.

Just my opinion.

There are a lot good sparks out there that wouldn't pass the 2391 2394 2395 simply because the way cg interpret the written exam you almost need a photographic memory,havin said that you may have all the knowledge and experience in the world so is this fair?

 

[Engineer54]

JIB/SJIB grading can be a little too harsh at times, a little leeway is always going to be needed. It used to call it commonsense, but alas that died a death long ago!! You could certainly base the minimum levels on the present JIB's requirements though, i'd be more than happy to accept them.

Certainly won't be any requirement for the part pee scams with a national licensing register, competency will be fulfilled by the license you carry. Why do you think all these scams are running more than a little scared right now, trying to drum up support for their continued existence... lol!!

 

[Hawkmoon]

There are a lot good sparks out there that wouldn't pass the 2391 2394 2395 simply because the way cg interpret the written exam you almost need a photographic memory,havin said that you may have all the knowledge and experience in the world so is this fair?

You don't need all the knowledge and experience in the world to pass the 2391 etc, just to be at a reasonably competent level and apply a bit of 'study time'.
Good electricians who fail this exam would probably admit that they did not prepare (study) well enough.