Live Working

[brookster]

Quick fire question.

I was always told that you cannot do live working unless the customer cannot shut X appliance down for what ever reason, a risk assessment is in place with a proper live working procedure/LOA.
Granted you cannot do live work in a hazardous area, but AP on site claims you will never do live work under X name.

Testing is live work right................. putting your fluke on live terminals is live work so I was always led to believe, you cannot always guarantee that you have isolated correctly.

Anything where you may come into contact with live exposed conductive parts is live working or is testing not part of this - I was always led to believe it was, as it meets the above.

 

[44ALLAN]

What was the question?

 

[Geordie Spark]

Was that a question or a statement?

I'm confused.com

 

[brookster]

does testing fall under live work? putting your fluke on live terminals is live work? i would say it was.

 

[telectrix]

wel, i'm live when i'm working irrespective of whether or not the installation is live. is that also classed as live working. personally, the term live working is a term conjured up by wusses for wusses. sometimes you need to work live. no big deal as long as you know what you're doi.........arrggggh. live pc.

 

[brookster]

The AP claims his company never work live and I got the question wrong because I wrote the above.

Clearly myself and the AP have different opinions of what live working actually is.

I would deem it as any where that you may come into contact with live exposed conductive parts - it happens all the time.

Not grabbing a bus bar but even proving a 240V is still live working right.......

 

[telectrix]

i consider putting test probes onto live terminals to be testing. using a tool on those terminals as live working. it's more a matter of personal preference what you call it. even pulling a fuse to isolate a circuit/installation is technically live working.

 

[brookster]

i consider putting test probes onto live terminals to be testing. using a tool on those terminals as live working. it's more a matter of personal preference what you call it. even pulling a fuse to isolate a circuit/installation is technically live working.

This is my point for him to say that nobody under this rather large company does live work is a totally absurd comment.
I'm going to have to tow the line to get my CP card, ok for HV but for LV that comment is a grey area nonsense.

in bold - exactly you expose live conductive parts.

 

[brookster]

Are people in agreement with me or the AP on this one..
Even extending to HV there is still one instance live working will be carried out and that is Live Phasing.

 

[Engineer54]

As an apprentice we were trained for live working. I wonder how many here, have drilled live LV bus bars on a 800A sub switchboard, to accommodate wiring to a new externally mounted Breaker?? How times change!!! ....lol!!

 

[telectrix]

if we're not supposed to work live, then why pay the extra for insulated tools?

 

[MDJ]

sometimes you need to work live. no big deal as long as you know what you're doi....

Haha, I was thinking of saying that but thought I would be run off the site

 

[brookster]

It's more the fact that you will always be near or around live exposed conductive parts for - testing and maintenance.

I know the answer I gave was 100% solid, I feel like making a --- out of the guy but will refrain. (i probably will not be able to refrain when I meet him)

There are exceptions to every rule - I also gave the guy the lowdown on how to handle such situations...........

 

[Engineer54]

Are people in agreement with me or the AP on this one..
Even extending to HV there is still one instance live working will be carried out and that is Live Phasing.

That's what MV/HV phasing/voltage sticks are made for!!
And this is what they look like...

HV detectors & Potential Indicators for 3kV - 400kV electrical systems

 

[Geordie Spark]

Haha, I was thinking of saying that but thought I would be run off the site

There's no chance of Tel being run off the site - or running anywhere with that Zimmerframe.

 

[telectrix]

hahaha, ****

 

[Geordie Spark]

hahaha, ****

:love:

 

[Adam W]

unless the customer cannot shut X appliance down for what ever reason

If a customer can't/won't shut down an appliance because it's inconvenient to lose power to it as a planned outage, can they afford to lose power to it as an unplanned outage as a result of you working live? By 'working live' I mean relying on your basic 1000v insulated tools to undo a terminal, pull a live wire out and screw it in somewhere else (still live), and not live testing (eg putting GS38 probes on a live terminal).

Saying that I seem to remember a thread a while ago where some H&S jobsworth had got wind of this idea of 'not working live' and forbidden any live testing, which I think would make the installation less safe.

 

[Adam W]

if we're not supposed to work live, then why pay the extra for insulated tools?

There was some old spark I worked with who used to say standard insulated tools should all be banned and we should use the kind of screwdrivers chippies use, to encourage you to pay more attention to what you're doing.
Uninsulated snips as well...

 

[telectrix]

There was some old spark I worked with who used to say standard insulated tools should all be banned and we should use the kind of screwdrivers chippies use, to encourage you to pay more attention to what you're doing.
Uninsulated snips as well...

these should be used only by plumbers as a means of testing for live.

 

[Geordie Spark]

these should be used only by plumbers as a means of testing for live.

Oi !! ........... aren't you forgetting I'm a plumber / gas bloke (as well as a spark) ?

 

[snowhead]

If testing a terminal with shrouded meter connections is Live working then so is putting a 13amp plug in a socket.

Pulling a fuse, unless it's pre 1970 ish, is not live working, the terminals are shrouded.

Live working leaves Live cables or bars exposed to the possibility of direct contact.

 

[brookster]

If a customer can't/won't shut down an appliance because it's inconvenient to lose power to it as a planned outage, can they afford to lose power to it as an unplanned outage as a result of you working live? By 'working live' I mean relying on your basic 1000v insulated tools to undo a terminal, pull a live wire out and screw it in somewhere else (still live), and not live testing (eg putting GS38 probes on a live terminal).

Pretty much running the risk in that case I agree. It doesn't need to be that 'live' though you could be standing 3 feet away from an exposed live conductor and it should be classed as working live.

Saying that I seem to remember a thread a while ago where some H&S jobsworth had got wind of this idea of 'not working live' and forbidden any live testing, which I think would make the installation less safe.

Yep you need to work live in some instances..

I'm putting it down to a difference of interpretation.

I could agree with the following

2) Situations where working “live” is acceptable.
Due regard shall be taken of “The Electricity at Work Regulations”, particularly the following
regulations: *
Regulation 14; Work on or near live conductors.
Regulation 16; which covers the subject “Persons to be competent to prevent danger and
injury.


Live working may be undertaken only when adequate precautions are taken to prevent danger or injury to all persons, i.e.
a) Persons carrying out work on live equipment shall be competent to do so safely.
b) Live exposed parts shall not be left unattended at any time.
d) Live work will only be carried out where there exists no risk of water ingress to live exposed parts.
e) Live work may only be carried out where it is impracticable to isolate the supply.
f) Signs shall be fitted in all cases on circuits under test stating “Warning, circuit under
test “Do Not Operate”.


The above would seem to state that testing does fall under the working live regulations.

 

[brookster]

So I I've read the APs rule book and guess what regs ect ect 3 allow live work under the regs I supplied him - make him look like a --- or not?

Inspecting, Fault Finding and Testing or Live Electrical Equipment


On systems and installations, including battery installations, where the supply is at low voltage testing on or near uninsulated live conductors is to be avoided, except where a formal assessment procedure for deciding whether to work live is undertaken and recorded by the Authorised Person, and reviewed and authorised by the Authorising Engineer and;
it is unreasonable in all circumstances for the conductors to be dead, and
it is reasonable in all circumstances for the persons to be at work on or near the conductor while it is live, and
the Authorised Person has given approval for such live working by the issue of a Standing Instruction, and
all live parts are adequately protected to prevent direct contact, and
suitable precautions (including. where necessary. The provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury, and
test equipment and all tools in use shall be suitable for the intended use. shall be properly maintained. and properly used, and
adequate precautions are taken to prevent damage to equipment and accidental contact with live conductors, and
the Person in Charge has an Accompanying Safety Person in attendance. The Accompanying Safety Person is to have the duties, as described in Clause 1.14 of this Rule Book explained before the commencement of the work

What a shame an AP cannot even read his own rule book before trying to make people look like fools.

 

[Engineer54]

Were all giving opinions to a situation we are completely in the dark about.

So can you give us the low down about the situation you are working in, and what area's of work you are currently in dispute with this AP, which i'm taking stands for ''Approved Person''?? So i'm also taking it that you work is revolving around MV/LV sub-station work, Yes??

 

[brookster]

Were all giving opinions to a situation we are completely in the dark about.

So can you give us the low down about the situation you are working in, and what area's of work you are currently in dispute with this AP, which i'm taking stands for ''Approved Person''?? So i'm also taking it that you work is revolving around MV/LV sub-station work, Yes??

It was a bog standard CP test, (skilled person). The work will be in a hazardous environment but the paperwork did not define this.
AP said I failed because of this question which I agree with if it is a hazardous area, but his comment about never doing live work in any area (they are world based) of this very large company is absurd giving the fact that the AP himself is supposed to sanction the permits and safety procedures to do so.
Not in the HV game anymore(how I miss HV ) it's oil area (LV). I don't have a problem with this in an hazardous area i was just his after dig which I found wrong and lol.
If he is pulling me up on regs he really should have read his own yes?

I'm not in dispute he is going to give me the test again but I might add 'in non hazardous area under regs ect ect you can carry out live work.'

Maybe he thinks live work is playing about with live cables which it clearly isnt and as an AP he should know this.

I didn't have the regs book at hand for the test which you are supposed to have access to and I still got the same answer after reading the ect rule book.(what --- use)

Thing is I clearly cant be to much of a --- about it as he grants me my card - but he was wrong.

The test I will add was a HV permit type deal nothing regarding petrochem at all.
Even had divining rods question ect and other HV type deal questions.

 

[Engineer54]

OK, at least now we can relate as to what you have been talking about. I only have the barest experience of the petrochem industry, so can't give any definitive answers. As far as Hazardous area's/zones go, i'm far more familiar with the American codes of practice, than the European Ex regulations. I am and have been a sub-station AP for many years though.... lol!!

 

[brookster]

When he said to me, you will never do live work under x my reply was 'so you don't do testing then' I could hear him croak over the phone

I might have added 'so how do you set up the pressure testing of a VCB'

He is HV and petrochem leccy AP

 

[Knobhead]

After reading this I've lost the will to live

 

[Gage]

After reading this I've lost the will to live

Rest in peace. I will join.

 

[brookster]

I just put 'never' in the test

 

[bigbaddave]

hahaha, ***t

yeah???????

 

[Silly Sausage]

Rest in peace. I will join.

I've got plenty of old climbing rope and I'm pretty useful on the woodwork front.

It's ridiculous, how could you possibly operate as an electrical tech eng etc without measuring live gear!
Nonsense!!!

 

[SirKit Breaker]

EAWR 1989. "It is not acceptable to work live, unless it is unreasonable to work dead", or words to that effect. So work that one out!

Cheers...........Howard

 

[shanky887614]

whats the problem with working live?

just get out your long nose pliers and put them tails in/away


as long as your doing it safe there is no problem, no law against it other than the usual risk assessment and doing it as a last resort

 

[TF and the wire]

As an electrician of 40 years standing, live working to me is actually touching a live part. I would never do this on anything above 110v ac. Not sure of any regs on this, just my own common sense. I know that some trades such as cable jointers have to, but they have the correct tools and training. I don't.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, we had a H&S officer, or Hi-Viz ----er as I call them, who suggested that "working on live equipment" meant even opening a control cabinet and we should complete a permit to work and risk assessment form EVERY time we did that. Imagine that in a 12 hour shift at a large factory. It wasn't long before he looked something else up on the internet and it became flavour of the month-interlock switches, light barriers, stored energy etc......

Sorry if I sound cynical.

 

[44ALLAN]

As an electrician of 40 years standing, live working to me is actually touching a live part. I would never do this on anything above 110v ac.

Just in from the pub and took a quick look before bed and saw that statement.
Just to be clear mate...........are you actually saying that you work on and touch 110volt live conductors?

 

[Fast&Rough]

Everyone should be able to work live , if your stupid enough to hurt yourself then you should feel bad/dead and if you start ****ing yourself even contemplating working live well you should not be allowed outside yourself

 

[Thefailsafe2012]

As an apprentice we were trained for live working. I wonder how many here, have drilled live LV bus bars on a 800A sub switchboard, to accommodate wiring to a new externally mounted Breaker?? How times change!!! ....lol!!

I got sweaty after reading that!

 

[shanky887614]

I got sweaty after reading that!

why?
as long as what he is in contact with has no potential voltage then its safe

 

[Thefailsafe2012]

Well, still wouldn't want to slip on the old drill eh? You done this sorta thing as well shanky?

 

[Engineer54]

Preparation is the key to safety here, and can take as much, or even more time than actually doing the job itself!!
The main objective is to eliminate or to reduce any potential dangers as far as possible.

The drill bits used by the way were special short drills (no longer than an inch or so) that produced niblets rather than a long stream of drilled material and were ...sharp!! lol!! The drill being connected to the bar being drilled, etc etc. The bus bars above and below were protected with insulating material within the area of work, rubber mats gloves eye/face protection and over shoes were in place, ... And most importantly, a big guy with a length of wood standing by!! lol!!

 

[shanky887614]

Well, still wouldn't want to slip on the old drill eh? You done this sorta thing as well shanky?

no, im too young but i understand the basic principle behind it.

frankly i would enlist advice/help from guys like yourself that know the best way to do it.


for a start with things like this its best to ask as i wasnt aware you could get these special drill bits and if i did attempt something like this with the wrong/not good enough equipement im creating unessicary risk's

 

[Engineer54]

no, im too young but i understand the basic principle behind it.

frankly i would enlist advice/help from guys like yourself that know the best way to do it.


for a start with things like this its best to ask as i wasnt aware you could get these special drill bits and if i did attempt something like this with the wrong/not good enough equipement im creating unessicary risk's

Wouldn't call them particularly special, perhaps that was the wrong description on my part to give them. Drill bits have always been available in different length sizes, to suit different applications. You could for instance use a standard sized drill bit and use a grub screw secured depth stop, it will do the job just as well!! lol!!

 

[Knobhead]

The question is, would you do it now?

 

[D Skelton]

As an apprentice we were trained for live working. I wonder how many here, have drilled live LV bus bars on a 800A sub switchboard, to accommodate wiring to a new externally mounted Breaker?? How times change!!! ....lol!!

They weren't live mate, you were just told they were to make you feel more hardcore

In all seriousness, training or no training, unless I was wearing a blimmin faraday suit I wouldn't be drilling live LV busbars, I value being able to watch my kid grow up! Lol

 

[PEM]

NICEIC recommendations state ZS on lighting circuits should be done by calculation as otherwise you'd be exposing live wires.

Having said that they also advise that inspecting the loft area as part of a condition report should not be necessary as its dangerous cos you need to use a ladder.

What will be next? Risk assessments for what?

1. Going for a crap at work all those strange toilet seats!

2. Someone self abusing with your tools when your not around?

I think disposable wipes, hand hell and face masks a must!! Alternatively just open your sandwiches and get on with life.

So much PC and HSE crap around these days.

Moan done! Well for now

 

[brookster]

2. Someone self abusing with your tools when your not around?

Might be a coshh

 

[TF and the wire]

As an electrician of 40 years standing, live working to me is actually touching a live part. I would never do this on anything above 110v ac.

Just in from the pub and took a quick look before bed and saw that statement.
Just to be clear mate...........are you actually saying that you work on and touch 110volt live conductors?

I'll move 110v control conductors around using my insulated tools if I have to. I wouldn't intentionally touch one though, but if I did, I know I would just get a tingle.

 

[44ALLAN]

I'll move 110v control conductors around using my insulated tools if I have to. I wouldn't intentionally touch one though, but if I did, I know I would just get a tingle.

Well I think we all do that ...moving wires with insulated tools.............but.........and I quote.....
" I wouldn't intentionally touch one though, but if I did, I know I would just get a tingle".

Your kidding right?