Minor Works Cert & Bonding

[Spunkywads26]

Hi All, me again.

I quoted a small job in a landlords house. The CU is located in a cupboard under the staircase and has rammed with the tenants rubbish. I asked the landlord what type of CU was in there and he told me it was replaced 2 years ago for an RCD board. I moved abit of stuff and found a split load dual RCD Crabtree board.

A week later I came back to start the job and cleared out the cupboard. The Gas meter is in the same cupboard and the bonding clamp is 1200mm away from the meter. The bonding clamp on the water pipe is situated on a branch from the stop tap.

Now I have not quoted for this to be rectified as I naively thought that if a CU was changed 2 years ago the spark would have sorted this too. I would also assume that this was notified so where do/can I go from here? I dont want to put my name to this problem on my MWC so can I list this as a departure from regs?

 

[Leesparkykent]

Why don't you just move it? Moving it 600mm is hardly going to break the bank is it?

 

[Pete999]

What work are you issuing a MNW cert for ??

 

[westward10]

I wouldn't bother main thing is that it is there.

 

[Ian1981]

For bonding all you need to do is verify it is present and adequate(define adequate,size no damage,suitable bs clamp etc)
Can always make a note in the comments section on the mwc

 

[Spunkywads26]

@ Lee - To move it would mean I need to replace the cable as it runs the wrong way.

@ Pete - I'm removing batten light above bath and replacing with 3 IP rated downlights and an extract fan.

@ Westy/Ian - I just worry that I would then take ownership of the bonding as I have carried out work on the CU and the bonding would always be checked. Therefore as soon as I sign off this it would become my problem. I am only just getting back into the trade and want to start in the right manner.

 

[Pete999]

Well if it's causing you that much grief , make a note on the MNW cert and quote for altering the position of the bond

 

[HandySparks]

The Gas meter is in the same cupboard and the bonding clamp is 1200mm away from the meter. The bonding clamp on the water pipe is situated on a branch from the stop tap.

Unless you can see a particular safety issue with this arrangement, I'd leave it.

 

[HandySparks]

... I just worry that I would then take ownership of the bonding as I have carried out work on the CU and the bonding would always be checked.

What work are you doing on the CU?

 

[Ian1981]

@ Lee - To move it would mean I need to replace the cable as it runs the wrong way.

@ Pete - I'm removing batten light above bath and replacing with 3 IP rated downlights and an extract fan.

@ Westy/Ian - I just worry that I would then take ownership of the bonding as I have carried out work on the CU and the bonding would always be checked. Therefore as soon as I sign off this it would become my problem. I am only just getting back into the trade and want to start in the right manner.

You are checking the bonding and altering an existing installation this is not initial verification same as if you did an eicr you certainly wouldn't C2 it.
If it's concerning you then alter it

 

[Ian1981]

If cable runs wrong way for gas then extend it, install an earth block or through crimp it inside a suitable enclosure with a label safety earth electrical connection do not remove

 

[Spunkywads26]

@ Handy - Sorry what I said was wrong, I am altering an existing circuit but when I test the circuit I will test the bonding continuity.

@ Ian - I will bring this up with the landlord tomorrow and state that I will note it on the MWC unless it gets altered. Just want to cover my behind.

 

[Pete999]

@ Handy - Sorry what I said was wrong, I am altering an existing circuit but when I test the circuit I will test the bonding continuity.

@ Ian - I will bring this up with the landlord tomorrow and state that I will note it on the MWC unless it gets altered. Just want to cover my behind.

If you note it on the MNW cert then, said behind, is well and truly covered imo.

 

[Ian1981]

@ Handy - Sorry what I said was wrong, I am altering an existing circuit but when I test the circuit I will test the bonding continuity.

@ Ian - I will bring this up with the landlord tomorrow and state that I will note it on the MWC unless it gets altered. Just want to cover my behind.

It's like if you install a socket and there's no rcd protection to the existing circuit.
You could install the cable in trunking and fit an rcd socket.
As long as your work is covered you don't have to bring existing installation to current standards. That said bonding must always be checked.

 

[Pete999]

If you note it on the MNW cert then, said behind, is well and truly covered imo.

To add if your work is complete. tested and certified, the to reaffirm, note the concerns on the cert, bum covered , you have done your bit it's now down the client to make the decision to ask for the remedial to be done IN WRITTING, for further bum covering

 

[Spunkywads26]

Thanks guys. Sorry if this may be trivial stuff but I just lack the confidence in my own knowledge and ability. Hopefully this will come soon and then maybe I can help others too

 

[Pete999]

Thanks guys. Sorry if this may be trivial stuff but I just lack the confidence in my own knowledge and ability. Hopefully this will come soon and then maybe I can help others too

No worries spunkywads

 

[Octopus]

If you are this concerned why not ring your schemes help line and see what they recommend..........

 

[Dave OCD]

If the gas pipe is the same continuous piece of copper at 600 and 1200mm from the gas meter what difference does it make anyway ? I know what the regs say but a little common sense can surely be applied here ?

 

[Pete999]

If you are this concerned why not ring your schemes help line and see what they recommend..........

Experience by passed for a moment, the OP says he lacks confidence, if he take the advice given, and notes the non conforming bits on his cert he shouldn't need to get advice from his scheme, the advice given is sound, from people probably more knowledgeable than his scheme, this will in turn expand his confidence, you can't be charging folk for work only to go running to the people you pay money to for advice, because from experience they often give the wrong advice, or cover their behinds in other ways, there I've said it, await the howling and flaying to start anytime soon.

 

[Andy78]

Thanks guys. Sorry if this may be trivial stuff but I just lack the confidence in my own knowledge and ability. Hopefully this will come soon and then maybe I can help others too

As well as this forum (other forums and groups are available) the best practice guides can be a good point of reference when not very sure about certain points.

Best Practice Guides - http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/electrical-professionals/best-practice-guides/

 

[Octopus]

^^ I was wondering if he's in a scheme yet.....

 

[davesparks]

I just worry that I would then take ownership of the bonding as I have carried out work on the CU and the bonding would always be checked. Therefore as soon as I sign off this it would become my problem. I am only just getting back into the trade and want to start in the right manner.

You do not take ownership of the bonding, that remains the property of the owner of the installation.
You are also only responsible for the work you have carried out, but yes you do also need to be satisfied that the installation is safe for you to carry out the work you are doing.

I know what I would do in this situation, but I guess that doesn't help you.
you can attach as many additional pages to a certificate as you wish, so I'd advise that you put everything you feel is necessary down on an additional sheet and attach it to the certificate.

In time you will come to realise that there are no part P police or regulations police and the schemes only care about people who use their logo without paying.
There are people carrying out dangerous installations every day and the only thing that happens is occasionally a decent electrician will end up putting it right. In the grand scheme of things a main bond located 2' to the right of the strictly correct location won't even be noticed.

 

[Adie moore]

minor works cert in a special location? am I the only one who would do a full installation certificate?

 

[Andy78]

minor works cert in a special location? am I the only one who would do a full installation certificate?

Why does the location matter to what cert you issue ? That should be defined by the scope of the works.

 

[Strima]

minor works cert in a special location? am I the only one who would do a full installation certificate?

MWC if altering or extending an existing circuit...

I would say adding a couple of downlights in the same room wouldn't justify an EIC regardless of the location.

 

[Adie moore]

maybe I have the wrong end of the stick. would we agree that any work in a special location is notifiable? would you guys notify from a mwc then?

 

[telectrix]

maybe I have the wrong end of the stick. would we agree that any work in a special location is notifiable? would you guys notify from a mwc then?

why not? it's still an installation certificate. Minor Electrical Works Installation Certificate. (MEWIC)

 

[Andy78]

maybe I have the wrong end of the stick. would we agree that any work in a special location is notifiable? would you guys notify from a mwc then?

Notification as required by building regs is totally separate from the certification required by BS7671.
The cert you issue for the work is based on the requirements of the wiring regs.

The scope of what is notifiable is detailed in part P. In England it currently stands as this:

Provision of a new circuit
change of consumer unit
work in a special location

Note that the definition of special location is not the same as BS7671. Part P defines it as within the zones of a bathroom as described in section 701 of the wiring regs or a location containing a swimming pool or sauna.

 

[Dave OCD]

And obviously a new installation or partial/full rewire is notifiable Andy, although provision of a new circuit or circuits is closely associated.

 

[Strima]

You could notify on the back of a smoke packet as long as it contains all the relevant test results, information (as per the model forms in BS7671) and is traceable.

 

[westward10]

The op hasn't posted for a while and I would say to him that if he is not confident in his abilities then maybe he should seek employment alongside people who would reinforce his abilities so he can feel confident in working solo. I suspect the tangent the thread has taken has scared him off.

 

[Andy78]

And obviously a new installation or partial/full rewire is notifiable Andy, although provision of a new circuit or circuits is closely associated.

I've written it as laid out in Part P.
Yes a rewire is obviously new circuits and does not really need to be listed as notifiable as new circuits already are.

 

[davesparks]

minor works cert in a special location? am I the only one who would do a full installation certificate?

Yes

 

[Des 56]

The op hasn't posted for a while and I would say to him that if he is not confident in his abilities then maybe he should seek employment alongside people who would reinforce his abilities so he can feel confident in working solo. I suspect the tangent the thread has taken has scared him off.

Ref confidence,as long as a person is competent,if the electrical work causes that person to take its concerns home,then worry and fret about its safety or legality,the trade of electrician may not have been the best choice for that person

 

[Adie moore]

ah, right then, thank you guys.

 

[Spunkywads26]

Sorry for not posting sooner but I do like a good nights sleep.

I completed my apprenticeship with NG Bailey back in 2000 but left the trade. I worked in my family business as a scaffolder and eventually for myself for the last 8 years as a scaff. When my father past away last year I fell out of love with doing this and hated the hassle of employing people so sold up. I have decided to come back into this trade as I did enjoy it, but I don't really want to work for somebody. Being out the trade for so long has effected my confidence in my own ability and I find it a lot of information to take in with the changes (17th edition, part P etc...). I have sat the 17th, Part P & 2394/5. I am in the process of joining Napit (@Murdoch).

Probably should get some experience working alongside somebody but that seems easier said than done, so I'm prepared to go alone. Everyone makes mistakes, its part of learning. Nobody can tell me that they just decided to do a job and they were instantly fantastic at it. Takes a bigger person to admit a mistake.

That's what I like about this forum, there are so many different types of guys here. Moody, cynical, helpful, rude, funny, knowledgeable. Ill be sure to keep a regular eye on this thread for fear of anybody thinking i'm running away!

 

[Ian1981]

Best of luck then matey.
Stay in touch on the forums as like you said they are helpful people on here and moody gits

 

[Dave OCD]

I've written it as laid out in Part P.
Yes a rewire is obviously new circuits and does not really need to be listed as notifiable as new circuits already are.

I only mentioned it Andy as when doing online Part P notifications on the Elecsa website rewiring and new build installations have their own tick boxes in the list of work type 'descriptors'. Maybe that's just an attempt to make it slightly more idiot proof.

 

[Octopus]

If you are going to stick around the best strategy is to provide as much info as possible AND answer questions raised by members

Why are you joining Napit? Stroma are cheaper!

 

[Spunkywads26]

I have picked Napit as my training provider works closely with the local Napit rep and has said he will help me through the application process.

When I left the trade & being blinkered by working for a large company with no domestic work, I seemed to think that NICEIC was the be all and end all. Maybe it was but from what I can see there are various schemes set up all with the same goal of earning money out of the working man. Maybe that is another thread though.