Currently reading:
Minor Works Certificate – Details of Departures from BS7671?

Discuss Minor Works Certificate – Details of Departures from BS7671? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

Spin, This was just an example; but if you had a non continuous ring then you would have installed a spur on a series of spurs, as it is not designed as a radial circuit, and you would then be in non compliance with the regulations as a non fused spur must only have one socket outlet and you could have many (although I would say that that socket would be safe you could well overload the cable for the whole circuit depending on where the break was.)
So the addition itself, would not comply, and you would either have to fix the Ring, or down rate the CPD.
Would lack of RCD protection to existing socket-outlets, or existing cables concealed in walls affect the safety of the spur, or whether the spur complied?
 
"The contractor or other person responsible for the new work, or a person authorized to act on their behalf, shall record on the Electrical Installation Certificate or the Minor Electrical Installation Worcks Certificate, any defects found, so far as is reasonably practicable, in the existing installation."
If we are required to upgrade the existing installation, why would there be a requirement to record any defects found?

To me I would read that as the circuit which you are certifying by means of a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate must comply with the Regulations as they currently stand. You are also required to note any defects which you have noticed during the course of the installation work. These defects therefore will not apply to the circuit you are certifying but to other parts of the installation. You don't need to go out of your way looking for defects but if you notice them then there is a duty of care to report that to the client.

That's my reading of it anyway.
 
Would you be certifying the circuit, or would you just be certifying the addition?
If you were for instance to change a socket-outlet for whatever reason, would you then have to ensure the rest of the circuit complied with current Regulations?
 
Spin
"So the addition itself, would not comply, and you would either have to fix the Ring, or down rate the CPD." Yes
If you were to install the spur as an RCD socket, then the socket would comply, but if the cable you installed were in the wall, then that cable would not comply, easiest to provide an RCD at the origin of the circuit, though presumably if you were considering it was just the bit you did that needed to comply then you could install an RCD at the point were you took the spur out of the ring!
 
post 33 I would say you would be certifying the design and construction and inspection of the addition were OK and the testing of the circuit was OK. Because I would not expect to fully assess the existing wiring for safe zones, etc. only to perform the testing on the circuit and ensure that complies.
 
If you were for instance to change a socket-outlet for whatever reason, would you then have to ensure the rest of the circuit complied with current Regulations?

Presuming you are referring to a like-for-like change then this would be maintenance work, and a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate would not be required, and as such you would not be required to certify compliance with BS 7671 in its current form.
 
Seems the thread is getting a going off in different tangents.
I'll try to put my point of view, and cover all the tangents.
The introduction indicates that existing installations do not have to be upgraded if they complied with earlier editions.
We are required to assess the installation before making any addition or alteration, to ensure that the rating and condition of existing equipment is adequate for the altered circumstances. To my mind, adequate does not mean 'comply with current Regulations'.
We are required during construction and on completion of an addition or alteration, to inspect and test to verify that the requirements of the Regulation have been met.
We are further required to issue appropriate certification. I am not aware that maintenance is excluded from these requirements.
We are required when certifying an addition or alteration, to note any defects (where reasonably practicable) in the existing installation.
The existing cables and accessories of a circuit would to my mind be part of the existing installation.
We are required to rectify any defects or omissions found in the work that the certificate relates to, before issuing the certification.
I do not see that this requires us to rectify any defects in the existing circuit, especially as we are required to note any defects on the certificate.
 
Fair enough, and I'm certainly not suggesting that you are wrong. Simply that I would interpret the requirements differently. Must have a look over the Guidance Notes etc. to see if they shed any light on the intentions of JPEL/64 (whilst acknowledging, of course, that they are simply an opinion and do not take the place of BS 7671).
 
Seems the thread is getting a going off in different tangents.
I'll try to put my point of view, and cover all the tangents.
The introduction indicates that existing installations do not have to be upgraded if they complied with earlier editions. Yes no problem
We are required to assess the installation before making any addition or alteration, to ensure that the rating and condition of existing equipment is adequate for the altered circumstances. To my mind, adequate does not mean 'comply with current Regulations'. I would agree with this
We are required during construction and on completion of an addition or alteration, to inspect and test to verify that the requirements of the Regulation have been met. Yes
We are further required to issue appropriate certification. I am not aware that maintenance is excluded from these requirements. Need the certification. I agree that BS7671 does not exclude this for maintenance (the word "may" is a bit unclear) however Part P guidance specifically states BS7671 does not require this only recommends.
We are required when certifying an addition or alteration, to note any defects (where reasonably practicable) in the existing installation. Yes
The existing cables and accessories of a circuit would to my mind be part of the existing installation.
Initially certainly, and certainly not designed or installed by you only modified.
We are required to rectify any defects or omissions found in the work that the certificate relates to, before issuing the certification. Yes for the work to which the certificate relates (but how do you separate an addition from the circuit it is attached to, particularly in testing?)
I do not see that this requires us to rectify any defects in the existing circuit, especially as we are required to note any defects on the certificate. Ah hmm Need to rectify defects in the existing circuit that would cause the addition to fail compliance and need to ensure existing circuit is adequate.

You raise some interesting points there and have made me re read the regulations (I am currently referring to AMD1 because it is available). I think that you are right there, to comply with the requirements of the regulations you would need to ensure that the circuit containing the modification was adequate for the intended use of the modification and that the circuit allowed the modification to comply with BS7671 (current) but I would normally try to rectify any defects in a circuit that I have added to, where practicable. Although I would not route cables or change cables (for csa) so I would not necessarily be making the existing circuit up to BS7671.
Oh, I have changed my view on this!, I am quite surprised!
 
Do you not think the RCD situation is kinda unique? The regs are not retroactive, everyone knows that, but the case of providing RCD protection almost seems to be an exception to that.

As adding sockets to existing circuits is quite a common job, this is a situation that everyone is going to be faced with. As I said earlier, in the case of the OP, his assessor gave advice that indicated he considered that the whole cct needed to be protected, not just the new spur.

This certainly seems to be one of those situations whereby the customer is going to think that they are being taken for a ride, especially if their current setup, ccu wise, precludes the addition of RCDs or RCBOs. What started out as a relatively minor addition, now looks like a board change is required.
 
No I don't believe so.
I think most of the problems stem from either people not understanding the requirements for RCD protection, or if I were cynical, an attempt to obtain extra work.
 
I'm of the same opinion as spin that it is only your work that you need to certify and comment on that certification about the existing installation.

RFC are always a challenge and if your doing a job that is associated with them on a lot of older installations then you most often as not have problem of interconnected rings, etc etc. and what turns out to be an hours job often can unearth all sorts of problems.

I have always certificated with a MEIWC the work that I have done and noted any comments on the installation as I found. I often though rather than fit a RCD FCU for the extra socket, tried to fit a piggy back enclosure next to the main CU, if space permitted, and disconnected the RFC from the MCB/Fuse and fed the enclosure from the now empty way in the CU and re terminate the RFC into the RCD, cost wise there is little difference between an enclosure, RCD and a normal FCU and a RCD FCU, it will obviously entail a little more time but it will leave the installation in a better condition.

Of course this would entail you making sure that you have the correct polarity especially between N-E along the ring as often there maybe a JB hidden where this is reversed, if that is the cast then you have to go back to the original FCU RCD, but every job is different of course, which makes this so much fun.
 
Of course this would entail you making sure that you have the correct polarity especially between N-E along the ring as often there maybe a JB hidden where this is reversed, if that is the cast then you have to go back to the original FCU RCD, but every job is different of course, which makes this so much fun.

But according to the OPs assessor (by his omission of mentioning it) the FCU RCD is NOT an acceptable option in this instance.
 
No I don't believe so.
I think most of the problems stem from either people not understanding the requirements for RCD protection

And is it any wonder. I'm still no closer to understanding if an additonal socket added to a ring, or even a radial for that matter can comply with the regs by use of the 'FCU RCD' option.
My gut feeling, given what happen to the OP is that this is not an acceptable method.
 
Technically an EIC as the characteristics of the whole circuit have been altered.

I'd argue against an EIC for an rcd spur feeding the additional wiring.

I changed a 60898 for a 61009 as part of a minor works job but issued an EIC due to the change of protective device.

My assessor said that was not needed and just a MWC would be enough. He said although I'm adding 30ma protection I'm not actually changing the characteristics of the protective device, still the same 6A and 6ka so MWC is fine.

I was surprised because I'm sure I was told different when I did my 2391
 
Overall I feel that the easiest thing to do is replace the MCB with an RCBO, if possible (not in this case) or fit an external RCD into the circuit as it leaves the CU as Malcolm suggests.

I believe (now) that you could also fit an RCD at the point of the start of your addition, to RCD protect the cable (if required) and the socket and comply with the regulations. Similarly if you did not need to RCD protect the cable then you could fit an RCD S/O. The first would be a real nuisance to do, however and is not usually the easy option.

The NICEIC inspector did not give this as an option but did not exclude it either, he only suggested three options that are the easiest to do (and give maximum safety for the circuit; why not protect the whole circuit? especially if it is easiest to do).
 
Overall I feel that the easiest thing to do is replace the MCB with an RCBO, if possible (not in this case) or fit an external RCD into the circuit as it leaves the CU as Malcolm suggests.

I believe (now) that you could also fit an RCD at the point of the start of your addition, to RCD protect the cable (if required) and the socket and comply with the regulations. Similarly if you did not need to RCD protect the cable then you could fit an RCD S/O. The first would be a real nuisance to do, however and is not usually the easy option.

The NICEIC inspector did not give this as an option but did not exclude it either, he only suggested three options that are the easiest to do (and give maximum safety for the circuit; why not protect the whole circuit? especially if it is easiest to do).

Richard,

There's no way what the inspector suggested is simpler than just fitting a RCD socket combo, so I don't believe that to be the case. I believe he suggested those options because, in his opinion, they were the only options open that complied with the regs. Alas however, he is not here to ask so we will never really know.

Maybe you can tell me something I have never been 100% sure about... Is the point of an RCD protected cct to provide sole protection for the devices plugged into it, or is it also supposed to provide some protection to the wiring that it supplies.... i.e provide protection against persons drilling into it, sawing through it etc.

Obviously if the former, then it could be argued that the RCD Socket combo addresses this, if it is the latter, then this would explain why the need to bring the whole circuit under RCD/RCBO protection.

Cheers
 
JamesBrownLive

An RCD S/O would not cover the cable feeding the socket so would not be an option if the cable is in the wall at <50mm. The RCDFCU at the start of the modification would protect the whole of the addition but would mean cutting out a socket box; more work than fitting an RCD at the CU.
The best method is to enhance the safety of the whole circuit.

30mA RCDs (ignoring larger current RCDs) are for Additional Protection only it provides this additional protection by disconnecting quickly at low (hopefully non fatal) current (rather than low (touch) voltage). It is there to protect against electric shock.

The RCD requirement is used in cases where there is enhanced risk of shock due to external conditions or inexperienced users. In the case of a fault or careless use, whether in the attached device or in the supply cable, the RCD will provide this additional protection.

I think it is considered that where the cable is visible no one is going to nail through it so lower risk and RCD not required. For S/O <=20A (general use) or S/O <=32A likely to be used outside or power supplied in wet conditions there is an increased risk of electric shock so RCD protection required.
 
James.
The introduction of the requirement to RCD protect socket-outlets was not brought in as a whim, it was originally to protect persons using portable equipment outdoors.
At the time, there had been a noticable increase to the number of injuries and fatalities due to the increased use of the new fangled electric mowers and hedge trimmers.
The original requirement was that all socket-outlets that may reasonably be used to supply portable equipment outdoors must have RCD protection.
Since that requirement was introduced, it has been found that many designers, inspectors and electrical installers have been over-zealous in applying this requirement, to such an extent that they include socket-outlets that would not reasonably be expected to be used to supply portable equipment outdoors. Such as those used to supply integrated appliances etc.

It was decided with the introduction of the 17th edition, to clarify the requiremnts to RCD protect socket-outlets, and to not only require that those used to supply portable equipment outdoors, but to include portable equipment used by unskilled persons indoors as well.
To this end two requirements were introduced, one requiring any socket-outlet intended for general use by ordinary persons to be RCD protected, and the other requiring specifically any socket-outlet that is used for mobile equipment outdoors should also be RCD protected.
As such, if you have a socket-outlet that could be used to supply mobile equipment outdoors, but you don't use it for that purpose, there is no requirement for it to be RCD protected.
However if that socket-outlet is used for a hoover, for charging laptops or any of the other myriad of new fangled items we now have, it must also have RCD protection.
Socket-outlets intended for specific use, such as to supply integrated appliances, boilers etc. do not require RCD protection, as it is unlikely that someone will be lugging such applances around and the likely hood of someone recieving a shock is slim.

It has also been determined that ordinary persons are quite thick, and will now indulge in DIY (especially when there is a bank holiday).
These people will insist on drilling and nailing where any reasonable person would not.
So the requirement to additionally protect cables concealed in walls has been extended to include RCD protection.

For some reason (which is a mystery to me) it has been decided to allow these people to have socket-outlets in their bathrooms.
I have seen an installation, where a 42" flat screen TV was installed into a stud wall of a bathroom. The TV was sealed off from the bathroom by some acrylic plastic, and the socket-outlet was outside the bathroom. Apparently it is possible now to obtain a TV that can be tiled into a bathroom or shower, and that when it is not on, doubles up as a mirror.
So you can now watch TV whilst showering, then quickly squeeze your pimples during the commercial breaks.
As such these socket-outlets also require RCD protection, along with them being 3.6m from the bath or shower. Perhaps it has been decided that these people will not have long extension leads.

It was decided that sensible or skilled persons would not be too thick to just start putting pictures, shelving and flat screen TVs up willy nilly without first determining whether there were concealed cables in the way, and that they would not use mobile equipment indoors with damaged cables. So exceptions were made for these persons to the requirements for RCD protection. Not that sensible that any exceptions for RCD protection in bathrooms or for mobile equipment used outdoors to be allowed.

Obviously, the easiest way to protect the socket-outlets that do need RCD protection, and at the same time cables concealed in walls, is to protect the whole circuit.
However to accomodate such installations where cables are not concealed in walls, where other aditional protection is used and where some socket-outlets are required whithout RCD protection, RCD protection for circuits other than in special locations is not required.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mark Coles wrote an article on the introduction of RCD protection to additions & alterations to final circuits.

Thanks Lenny,

That article has confirmed that the RCD S/O and the FCU RCD options that have been suggested are not compliant.

Just what I needed to know.

Thanks also to Richard and Spin, for taking the time with their longish (Long in Spin's case) responses. I was already aware of the main reasons behind RCDs but somehow, the requirement because of concealed cables <50mm had evaporated from my mind, even though I now remember learning it. I guess I'm just getting old :sad:

Cheers
 
I think I will rely on the testing complying with BS7671 rather than fully upgrading an entire ring circuit to BS7671 for a socket addition, that could be a bit expensive. Though I would normally protect the entire circuit with an RCD (if required).
 
Long gone thread maybe , but where do we stand then on replacement of say a broken external back box or broken socket , with regards to RCD protection and or even testing . ????? . Or shall i just put the Gas Safe sticky tape back on , thank her for the cuppa and bugger off .
 
Gas safe sticky tape by the way that was on it when i arrived , whilst she was happily working on her lap top from said socket which happened to suddenly be void of neutral on minor wobble of said skt . ooooh scary , poor Danish student .
 
… It has also been determined that ordinary persons are quite thick, and will now indulge in DIY (especially when there is a bank holiday).
These people will insist on drilling and nailing where any reasonable person would not.

An amusing, informative, and well-written post. Thanks.

I wonder if the inspector would have accepted an RCD spur? I suspect not: even if it might (just) be within the letter of the regulations, surely it isn’t within the spirit. It smacks of a ‘jobsworth’ interpretation: there you go, MY single additional socket complies, but stuff the other twenty sockets on the same RFC.

It does (sort of) make sense that if you have to RCD-protect new or additional work, then you should protect the whole circuit which feeds that work. It could be argued that ALL the final circuit cabling supplying your new socket is now adopted by you and hence falls under current regulations.

But what about existing cabling which is not installed in the ‘safe zones’. It would clearly be absurd to have to tell a client that in order to add a single new socket somewhere you have to change all the cabling in the walls of maybe many rooms, because it doesn’t run in just exactly the right places. Apologies if this is specifically excluded and I’ve missed it.
 
Last edited:

Reply to Minor Works Certificate – Details of Departures from BS7671? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock