Minor works - Like for like

[Blaspark]

If a like for like change is done but it's not in compliance with the new regs is a risk assessment always required?

Also where does the "like for like" terminology come from?

 

[westward10]

What have you done and why is it not in compliance with current Regulations.

 

[Blaspark]

For example replacing an mcb on a lighting circuit which now requires rcd

 

[telectrix]

that is not like for like. a RCBO is not "like " a MCB., even though it might fit in the same hole. a full test of the circuit and a MWC should be carried out. but i can't see the need for a RA. unless you have H&S numpties aboard.

 

[westward10]

Why have you replaced the circuit breaker.

 

[telectrix]

Why have you replaced the circuit breaker.

because, according to it's psychiatrist, it needed to change.

 

[westward10]

Blood and a stone come to mind.

 

[Blaspark]

This is a hypothetical example.

A lighting circuit with no rcd protection. The mcb needs changing for the reason specified by telectrix. Now does it need either an rcd or a risk assessment or can that be skipped.

 

[telectrix]

as i said. a MWC completed for the altered circuit. why a RA? is your company run by snowflakes?

 

[westward10]

As long as the protective device satisfies ADS and no additions have been made then no.

 

[Zdb]

Replacing an MCB with another MCB of the same type/rating is like for like. Replacing it with an RCBO is not.

I would definitely do a MEIW certificate and perform all of the tests if replacing an MCB with an RCBO.

Some people would even do a full EIC but I think that's OTT IMO.

 

[telectrix]

threasd going round in circles. where's buzz when youneed him?

 

[Blaspark]

as i said. a MWC completed for the altered circuit. why a RA? is your company run by snowflakes?

The company is ran by curious people.

18th edition ads is not met without rcd I think because of Reg 411.3.4.

Mwc says departures may have a risk assessment "where applicable".

I want to know if this is applicable

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As far as I am aware, the requirement for a Risk Assessment when omitting RCD protection, is in relation to socket-outlets intended to be used for specific items of equipment.
The term ‘like for like’ is not used within BS7671.

 

[Blaspark]

S

As far as I am aware, the requirement for a Risk Assessment when omitting RCD protection, is in relation to socket-outlets intended to be used for specific items of equipment.
The term ‘like for like’ is not used within BS7671.

Someone just informed me that "like for like" is a part p term.

The requirement for ra for socket not rcd protected is specified but I'm talking about MWC which requires one where "applicable"

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Yes I did just inform you.
There is one instance of the term in Approved Document Part P.
Yes you need to attach a documented Risk Assessment to the MEIWC if you are installing a socket-outlet without RCD protection.
If you are not installing a socket-outlet, then it’s not applicable.

 

[westward10]

A risk assessment is for departures from BS7671, see Regulations 120.3, 133.1.3 and 133.5 for such instances where this may be applicable. The risk assessment must prove that any departures do not affect the safety of the installation and persons using the installation and only apply to alterations and extensions to the circuit.

 

[Blaspark]

A risk assessment is for departures from BS7671, see Regulations 120.3, 133.1.3 and 133.5 for such instances where this may be applicable. The risk assessment must prove that any departures do not affect the safety of the installation and persons using the installation and only apply to alterations and extensions to the circuit.

Thanks

 

[Wilko]

I believe we are ok to maintain an installation without triggering a requirement to upgrade to current regulations or carry out risk assessment. Change a lamp, replace a broken outlet, replace a broken MCB etc.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Regulation 411.3.3 is the only instance where there is a requirement for a documented Risk Assessment in BS7671.
There are other Regulations where a Risk Assessment is required, but there is no requirement for the Risk Assessment to be documented in those instances.

 

[westward10]

Regulation 411.3.3 is the only instance where there is a requirement for a documented Risk Assessment in BS7671.
There are other Regulations where a Risk Assessment is required, but there is no requirement for the Risk Assessment to be documented in those instances.

That is not correct. If you refer to the model Minor Works Certificate in BS7671 it clearly refers to the Regulations I have noted in #17 and this can cover a multitude of departures.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

That is not correct. If you refer to the model Minor Works Certificate in BS7671 it clearly refers to the Regulations I have noted in #17 and this can cover a multitude of departures.

I’m afraid it is correct.
None of the Regulations you quoted require a documented Risk Assessment.

 

[Blaspark]

I’m afraid it is correct.
None of the Regulations you quoted require a documented Risk Assessment.

I'm so glad you guys are going to argue amongst yourselves so I can relax with my coffee.
Let me know when the dust settles

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Am i the only one who minor works everything?
If i change a cracked lightswitch like for like i carry out a full range of tests and certify it.

Reasons are habit, and also do alot of work in social housing so always wanting to cover my back. Photo of every job also saved in the computer job file.

 

[Pete999]

threasd going round in circles. where's buzz when youneed him?

Finding out how to spell risk assessment, sorry Buzz honest

 

[Blaspark]

Am i the only one who minor works everything?
If i change a cracked lightswitch like for like i carry out a full range of tests and certify it.

Reasons are habit, and also do alot of work in social housing so always wanting to cover my back. Photo of every job also saved in the computer job file.

I see no reason not to do that and lots of reasons to do so. If you read the notes in appendix 6 for person producing the certificate it's pretty clear you could but they use the term "may".
They say intended to be used for alterations so I think that eliminates the "may" part in the next line if you are doing like for like change. Still an alteration though not a design change.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

An alteration would be if you changed something from the original design.
For instance, installing down lights in a room instead of a pendant.
An addition would be if you were to add something to the original design.
For instance, installing down lights in a room whilst leaving the pendant in place.
Replacing existing equipment because of damage or deterioration, would be maintenance.

 

[Pete999]

IGNORE PLEASE having some difficulties posting the right info

 

[Blaspark]

An alteration would be if you changed something from the original design.
For instance, installing down lights in a room instead of a pendant.
An addition would be if you were to add something to the original design.
For instance, installing down lights in a room whilst leaving the pendant in place.
Replacing existing equipment because of damage or deterioration, would be maintenance.

Fair enough you can do that.
This article sums up my opinion better than I could..
Majoring in the Minor Works Certificate - https://professional-electrician.com/technical/majoring-minor-works-certificate-napit/

 

[Blissof89]

I have a little confusion over MWC's.

Currently we are adding a lot of smoke detectors to rental properties due to the change in the law around HMO licenses. Often its just upgrading from a D LD1 to a D LD2 system type. On smaller properties its just taking permanent feed off a local lighting fixture and putting a smoke detector in the living area, which is usually being used as a bedroom. And then wiring to smoke detectors in all the bedrooms upstairs from the exsisting one on landing via loft.

When completing MWC's for this above work its is necessary to perform R1+R2 for every fixture on the lighting circuit? A lot of these places have 1 lighting circuit feeding both floors so performing R1+R2 at every point takes a while and all I'm doing is adding 1 smoke detector. Would it be acceptable to confirm R1+R2 at my new smoke detector and the fixture immediately after, as I have not done anything that will affect the circuit beyond this.

Edit: A word

 

[Zdb]

Fair enough you can do that.
This article sums up my opinion better than I could..
Majoring in the Minor Works Certificate - https://professional-electrician.com/technical/majoring-minor-works-certificate-napit/

They suggest that a issuing a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate for replacing a damaged socket outlet is good practice and I agree.

I always test the end to ends to confirm that it is a complete ring, check the Zs and do an RCD test so it makes sense to record the values.

I don't always bother with the IR test though if I'm being honest

 

[l4urence]

Replacing a mcb for a rcbo in my opinion is the right thing to do (where there is no RCD protection). I would certainly complete a MW cert and testing of that circuit for such an event.

 

[Blaspark]

I have a little confusion over MWC's.

Currently we are adding a lot of smoke detectors to rental properties due to the change in the law around HMO licenses. Often its just upgrading from a D LD1 to a D LD2 system type. On smaller properties its just taking permanent feed off a local lighting fixture and putting a smoke detector in the living area, which is usually being used as a bedroom. And then wiring to smoke detectors in all the bedrooms upstairs from the exsisting one on landing via loft.

When completing MWC's for this above work its is necessary to perform R1+R2 for every fixture on the lighting circuit? A lot of these places have 1 lighting circuit feeding both floors so performing R1+R2 at every point takes a while and all I'm doing is adding 1 smoke detector. Would it be acceptable to confirm R1+R2 at my new smoke detector and the fixture immediately after, as I have not done anything that will affect the circuit beyond this.

Edit: A word

R1+R2 is taken at every point for eic.
In your case I'd take it at the furthest point to check the circuit your working on is safe and at the point your spurring off because some kind of parallel path might be the reason you have continuity at the furthest point. That's just an opinion off the top of my head. A reference to the regs would help.
Probably you don't know the furthest point of the circuit anyway. No?

 

[telectrix]

IMO, you would not need to perform R1+R2 testing. a Zs reading would confirm cpc integrity and that reading can be entered on your MWC.

 

[Blaspark]

I've heard that grade of alarm is supposed to be interconnected. Is that true? If so how are you doing it?

 

[Blaspark]

IMO, you would not need to perform R1+R2 testing. a Zs reading would confirm cpc integrity and that reading can be entered on your MWC.

Zs technically doesn't prove cpc continuity though it is a good indication.
Also zs at a light fitting is a live test with mains exposed and not recommended at any point these days, though I think it's no big deal.

 

[Blissof89]

I've heard that grade of alarm is supposed to be interconnected. Is that true? If so how are you doing it?

It differs from house to house but we generally install radio link bases downstairs from existing light fixtures then replace the existing landing smoke with a radio link and hard wire from there to upstairs rooms via the loft.

Don't usually know where last point on circuit is, usually not too hard to figure it out though.

 

[Flanders]

Going back to the op original question , here is an example i come acroos a lot , carry out an eicr and there is a 32 amp mcb protection a 2.5mm radial socket circuit on the 2nd floor of an office.
We are then ask to carry out remedial work, now do you .
A. downrate to a 20amp mcb.
B. downrate to a 20 amp rcbo.

 

[Blaspark]

Going back to the op original question , here is an example i come acroos a lot , carry out an eicr and there is a 32 amp mcb protection a 2.5mm radial socket circuit on the 2nd floor of an office.
We are then ask to carry out remedial work, now do you .
A. downrate to a 20amp mcb.
B. downrate to a 20 amp rcbo.

It would be odd not to use a rcbo unless you can jiggle something around upstream. No rcd = ra plus labels on sockets for specific use only. No?

 

[DPG]

It would be odd not to use a rcbo unless you can jiggle something around upstream. No rcd = ra plus labels on sockets for specific use only. No?

No risk assessment allowed for RCD omission in domestic.

 

[telectrix]

Going back to the op original question , here is an example i come acroos a lot , carry out an eicr and there is a 32 amp mcb protection a 2.5mm radial socket circuit on the 2nd floor of an office.
We are then ask to carry out remedial work, now do you .
A. downrate to a 20amp mcb.
B. downrate to a 20 amp rcbo.

B.

 

[Flanders]

It would be odd not to use a rcbo unless you can jiggle something around upstream. No rcd = ra plus labels on sockets for specific use only. No?

You Can't use lables on sockets now to say for specific use , they stoped that with the 18th

 

[Blaspark]

It differs from house to house but we generally install radio link bases downstairs from existing light fixtures then replace the existing landing smoke with a radio link and hard wire from there to upstairs rooms via the loft.

Don't usually know where last point on circuit is, usually not too hard to figure it out though.

Just curious... Does your alarm system signal something if one of the devices drops of the network? If so do mind telling what brand/range you're using?

 

[peterhyper]

Am i the only one who minor works everything?
If i change a cracked lightswitch like for like i carry out a full range of tests and certify it.

Reasons are habit, and also do alot of work in social housing so always wanting to cover my back. Photo of every job also saved in the computer job file.

No hope of me issuing a MWC to change a cracked light switch. I doubt house owners issue themselves a MWC when they replace a light switch.

Do you also issue a MWC when you replace a customer's light bulb?

 

[DPG]

No hope of me issuing a MWC to change a cracked light switch. I doubt house owners issue themselves a MWC when they replace a light switch.

Do you also issue a MWC when you replace a customer's light bulb?

It's your choice. He was only giving his opinion.

 

[Blaspark]

No hope of me issuing a MWC to change a cracked light switch. I doubt house owners issue themselves a MWC when they replace a light switch.

Do you also issue a MWC when you replace a customer's light bulb?

I can see why you're not bothered but in a commercial installation where there might be a high turn over of staff, insane members of the public around etc would you not want to know if a socket has been changed once every 2 years for the last 6 years? That sort of info is very handy and MWC is best way to record it

 

[peterhyper]

It's your choice. He was only giving his opinion.

And I was only giving my opinion.

 

[Blaspark]

You Can't use lables on sockets now to say for specific use , they stoped that with the 18th

They stopped it in dwellings. In other properties it may still be possible according to 411.3.3 (I think). Where's the no labels mentioned?

 

[Blaspark]

.

 

[Blissof89]

Just curious... Does your alarm system signal something if one of the devices drops of the network? If so do mind telling what brand/range you're using?

No, there is no monitoring. We are just using the Aico Radio link but I think the Radio link+ does have remote monitoring capabilities