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  1. AndyC.
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    AndyC. New EF Member

    Location:
    Maidstone
    Hi all,
    It is my first post. I'm sorry if I do something stupid

    I need some help with running new circuit to the shed on the back garden.
    Basically I have been asked to fit a double socket and light in the shed.
    The only one way to run power from main building to shed is to take a power from the kitchen ring.
    I was thinking to fit IP44 outside socket drill through the wall and connect it to the kitchen ring. From outside socket I would run SWA 4 sq. mm armoured cable (approx. 6 meters.)
    My question is, as there is an old CU and landlord does not want to replace it with current standard, what would be the best way to confirm with reg. I thought to fit RCBBO in the CU for the kitchen ring.
    Does it sound right?

    Another question I have, is there any alternative way to run the cable from building to the shed? for example T&E in trunking clipped on fence?

    If you need more info, please just let me know.
     
  2. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Does the person who has "asked you to fit" this know that you are only a "budding Electrician", at the moment?
    I wouldn't be too happy if a "budding gas fitter" came to fit me a new boiler!
     
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  3. AndyC.
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    AndyC. New EF Member

    Location:
    Maidstone
    I am not a budding electrician mate. Sorry I have sing up to this forum a couple years ago and I wasn't sure how it works when I was registering. Then I did not use it at all. Now I found the mistake in my profile and corrected it. I am general builder, as well as I am electrician.
    I just need an advise from more experienced colleagues. Can you help me or not.
    By the way I've seen a lot "Professional" electricians and plumbers who shouldn't work in them profession. I always think it is better to ask twice than make a stupid mistake.
     
  4. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Words fail me.
     
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  5. rolyberkin
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    rolyberkin Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Chelmsford
    That will be a first!:)
     
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  6. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    If you decide to fit an external socket it needs rcd protection. You cannot just spur multipe outlets from the existing ring final. A T&E cable clipped to the fence is prone to mechanical and solar damage.
    Your post indicates limited knowledge of the requirements needed, resort to a qualified electrician and leave alone.
     
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  7. AndyC.
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    AndyC. New EF Member

    Location:
    Maidstone
    I was more thinking of mechanical damage. T&E in trunking. I know the regs says buried in the ground etc. I think of quicker way as there is concrete patio.
    RCBO isn't enough? for the ring/
     
  8. Hellmooth
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    Hellmooth Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Livingston
    Business Name:
    CM Electrical
    You have nowhere near the experience and more than likely qualifications to be carrying out this work, get a spark in, you won't get help here with the limited knowledge you have shown so far.
     
  9. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Oh dear.....
     
  10. Taylortwocities
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    Taylortwocities Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    How were planning to fit 4mm armoured cable into a 13A plug?
     
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  11. darkwood
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    darkwood For it is a human number, its number is 666 Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Hi, AndyC.

    Ill be upfront and honest here and express as you're a Qualified 17th edition Electrician it worries me how basic your level of questioning is, it would seem you're lacking experience under the guidance of a seasoned electrician and i would highly recommend you maybe work with a Electrical contracting company or similar competent persons for a few years to pick up the basics, I would suggest at the moment you're not ready to be going out and charging customers as you lack enough experience.
    Taking and passing courses and exams is only part of the journey and you'll find yourself well out of your depth very quickly without any onsite experience and guidance.

    In answer to your query -

    -Are we to assume this is just a standard wooden shed with no other incoming services or a metal structure?


    -You addition to any circuit with have to meet current regulations throughout its length to the point you tap into the ring.
    -As has been mentioned, T&E will be an unsuitable method for a few reasons, its UV tolerance and it low mechanical protection
    - If you do join into a ring, then remember subject to choice of cable, it may require RCD protection for the cable itself, this will also depend on routing and depth.
    - SWA would be the prefered method, plastic trunking on a garden wall/fence will be extremely unsightly and will most likely warp in the summer heat.
    -Before any work is done you will need to ensure the earthing and bonding are adequate where needed and if necessary qoute for any upgrade or additional related work, failure to do so may mean you cannot do your work in compliance to regulations and sign it off.

    I'm giving you an insight to what you should be looking for and possible options here but I refer you back to my recommendations that you really need to get some experience under someones wing for a few years before you go out and start charging customers for work the consequences of not doing so can range from poor workmanship, breaches of regulations or even risk to the safety of your customers and/or their property, I hope you take this all as constructive advice and not a dig at your intellect, it is just your lack of experience showing here, the reg's give alot of guidance but they do not tell you which are the best solutions to certain jobs nor do they explain the properties or lack of them of the materials you use, all this is picked up from the more experienced and passed down.
     
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  12. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    Words don't fail me, I just don't know what to say. what other electrical quals or experience do you have apart from the 17th (tO the OP)
     
  13. GMES
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    GMES Chief Gorilla Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    We keep coming up against these problems, and I come to the same conclusion every time!!
    It is the short course organisers that are to blame in my opinion, not the people that take them, although having said that they too need to accept that they cannot be taught a craft in a couple of months, because it becomes immediately clear when they get unleashed into the real world they are lacking in the most important commodity and that is experience.
    Nobody should be allowed to take a quick course and then go straight into the world of self-employment.

    Take My Apprentice as a perfect example, he's a very clever young lad and is on his level 3 now, so come this June/ July he will have done 2 years at college, He has progressed really well and on any new install we do he is very competent and confident at testing the install however, he is still very wet behind the ears when it comes to periodic testing and that is simply because he lacks the necessary experience but it will come to him in time.
     
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  14. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    is this your apprentice, Glenn?

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    Nah that's Glenn himself as a youngster
     
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  16. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    I agree with GMES, but you cannot pin the blame on the course organisers entirely. Just look at the OP's statement "My question is, as there is an old CU and landlord does not want to replace it with current standard". That says it all to me, in this case. B******y landlords are, in general, a bunch of penny pincher's with more thought to their own profit than their tenants safety. It should be a legal requirement that the electrical installation is brought up to current standards for a rental property,and inspected properly and regularly. The Landlord in this case is obviously quite happy to use a "builder", who he probably knows is not up to the job, to undertake the electrical work that he wants done. Judging by the general narrative of the OP I could say a bit more on what the situation probably is but I better hadn't on here.
    I don't know what comes over people when they decide to become a "Landlord", I presume it is possibly because they are trying to use the situation to make relatively small margins due to general poor investment opportunities and are trying to keep expenditure to an absolute minimum, but it is certainly not conducive to safety. I recently did a periodic for a Lady that I know fairly well and is well off. It was satisfactory but I made a recommendation for an RCD upgrade, which could have been accomplished easily and quite cheaply by the fitting of a couple of RCBO's, along with a detailed separate report and fact sheet. Do you know she didn't even ask me how much it would cost, and there is a young family in the property. The only way to make things happen is for it to be a legal requirement for any rental property to be on a council register and inspected properly, for everything. I have yet to meet a Landlord who seems to be genuinely concerned for their tenants well being. I had one the other day, moaning that he had just had to shell out £4K for a new boiler - "I won't be able to go on holiday now", was his comment, this after the single parent had been without hot water for 4 weeks and only 1 working downstairs socket, I was gobsmacked. At least the council did step in and re-house her on this occasion, but that is at our expense not the Landlords!
     
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  17. Murdoch
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    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    I would quote to do it properly...... Landlords are a pita imho
     
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  18. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Concur with comments about landlords. My eldest rents, every time he's moved flats, we've left the old one immaculate. But he still got 'fined' cleaning off dust on top door architrave or mark on carpet, etc etc. First one he moved out of, only got about 25% of the deposit back. Learnt now though, use a cleaning company as recommended by letting agents. Last landlord tried it on, until we reminded the letting agent, we used the cleaning company they'd recommended. Shysters.
    Rant over.
     
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  19. Spoon
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    Spoon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Lancashire
    Not all landlords are bad.
    Not all people can get an apprenticeship.
    Not all people can do a 3 year course.
    Not many people can gain experience under someone's wing. Just look at the number of people asking for experience.
     
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  20. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Don't get me started mate. My Son also rents, it is just one continuous trail of misery. Unregulated, some of them bordering on criminal. Outrageous monthly payments for ageing old properties that fall far below the standards most people would accept. How's this for taking the mick? Few months ago during heavy rain the roof leaked, and I mean leaked, so he rings the number the dear Letting Agency had given them (he shares), no reply, repeatedly. No answerphone, nothing, just no reply. So, they ring the "emergency" number. Result? They get fined £25 nfor "improper use". If you protest and kick off, you just get threatened with being booted out, as where he has to rent there is a shortage of rentals. Unless you are involved in it you wouldn't believe it..........
     
  21. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    A sad fact of life, but it's no excuse for launching yourself upon the general public when you do not have the required experience. Until the educational bodies and politicians start to recognise that we need young people to enter into apprenticeships (proper ones, not baking frozen rolls in supermarkets), rather than going to University to get a degree in an ****ology, we will always have this problem. It seems to me that entering into a trade is seen as some sort of second best option amongst far too many people. Where my kids went to school/college it was not even on their radar. I think it was that Blair bloke again.......
     
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  22. Spoon
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    Spoon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Lancashire
    You may want to talk to some landlords about the people who rent their property.... Same nasty stories...
     
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  23. Spoon
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    Spoon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Lancashire
    The point I'm trying to put over is I don't know the OP. He could be just a guy trying to learn and gain more info... he could be a d*ck... I don't know... I'm going with the former until I know better.
    Todays market and companies are all about profit... Nothing else. That is the sad fact of life!
     
  24. GMES
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    GMES Chief Gorilla Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    All valid points mate, but would you attempt an heart transplant after doing a short course just because it was all that was available, I would hope that your answer is no. I get it that not everyone can get a proper apprenticeship but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to go self employed imediately after doing one, which is exactly what a lot of the course providers are tempting them with, Yeah do this course and within a couple of months you'll be earning Thousands!!!!!! sadly this is what are lot of poor guys are getting brainwashed with.
     
  25. Spoon
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    Spoon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Lancashire
    You can't class a surgeon and an electrician together. To get power to a shed is relatively easy. Doing it to the regs is a different matter.
    How many people on here that are not qualified to do so tinker with other stuff like gas, car brakes....? Whey want to save money and think they can do it them selves.

    Again, this is all about profit and nothing else... That's what the guys running the course care about. The industry doesn't care as they will be getting some of the money. This is what we have now. Unfortunately this is not going to change. The market is saturated with Domestic Electricians and Domestic Installers. Does the industry care..... No.
     
  26. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Couldn't agree more with that last statement!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  27. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
     
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  28. rolyberkin
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    rolyberkin Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Chelmsford
    Short of wiping my tenants arse there is not much else that I haven't done for her, it's like having a second bloody wife nagging me, am I doing something wrong? Perhaps I should toughen up?
     
  29. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    Yes, there are a few bad tenants, there always are in any walk of life, but I have met quite a few and generally they are very nice, reasonable people. On the other hand, most of the Landlords I have encountered are not. As I suggested I believe it is that they are using the opportunity to make as much money as possible, and their greed takes priority over their responsibility. We are, unfortunately, becoming a greedy society? I heard on the radio the other day that a couple who earned £74K between them classed them selves as JAM's - just about managing. ??? Managing to do what I wonder.
     
  30. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    I think you should pat yourself on the back then, you are one of the few.
     
  31. Spoon
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    Spoon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Lancashire
    Next time you go round just wear a mankini. She probably won't ring you again.... :)
     
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  32. DPG
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    DPG Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S Yorkshire
    Lets have less of the landlord bashing please. It's no different to you saying that most sparks are bad ones by basing your information on many of the daft posts that appear on here from so called electricians.

    Have a look at the mess some tennants leave behind. Also look at the way things are biassed towards the tennant - even if they have damaged your property or not paid any rent it is a nightmare to do anything about it - the landlord must follow proper procedures and wait it out.

    I rent 2 houses out and both have annual gas checks and regular electrical checks (obviously!). Both are well maintained and in good order.

    Daz
     
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  33. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    I'm sure you are a fair Landlord Daz, going by your sensible posts and attitude on here. Actually, I am one myself (commercial property). All I am saying is, in my experience, most of the ones I encounter are not. It doesn't seem to matter what walk of life they are from, they just don't seem to care and will not spend even a trifling amount of money to increase the safety or comfort of others. Some are bordering on criminal, maybe I have just been unlucky.
     
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  34. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    There were a couple of other anecdotes I had written in my post, but I messed up my quoting technique again (or was it the system!). Enough said perhaps.
     
  35. rolyberkin
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    rolyberkin Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Chelmsford

    Got one of those in a drawer somewhere, will give it a try!:tearsofjoy:
     
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  36. Spoon
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    Spoon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Lancashire
    We do NOT require visual proof.... :)
     
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  37. FatAlan
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    FatAlan Trainee Trainee Access

    Location:
    Surrey
    Speaking as someone who is currently doing a short intensive course. There are very clear issues with the companies running and marketing the courses in respect of very suptle misrepresentations that once qualified you can walk out there an start work.

    The whole sector is very confusing and there are a lot of guys signing up, and shelling out big bucks, turning up and being extremely disappointed when the truth finally dawns on them.

    I'm lucky in that I'm not relying on a fast route to get out there and start earning and I'm acutely aware that getting supervised hands on experience is key.

    The courses that I have done so far have shown me is that, like most subjects, the more you learn the more you realise how little you know.

    Clear as day when you look at the posts on here!
     
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  38. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Tis a wise person who knows the limits of their own ignorance.
     
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  39. DPG
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    DPG Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S Yorkshire
    You've hit the nail on the head there.
    Daz.
     
  40. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    When I did my apprenticeship, I seem to recall finishing college training after 3 years. Then spending the last two years being taken advantage of by my employer, using me as a qualified sparks on jobs.

    Seems as if the short course training does the same thing effectively, albeit my last 2 years allowed me to 'mingle' with the actual qualified sparks.

    I seem to get weekly calls from guys paying for their training, trying to get work and exposure with experienced electricians (they realised their mistake in ringing me!). Seems there's little or no apprenticeships out there at the mo.

    Its with irony therefore, that I read in the PE&I December issue, a piece on 'how to attract new talent into the electrical sector' and a concern of a 'potential of a huge skills shortage' when we leave the EU. Think the answers obvious, but someone other than the 'apprentice', has got to pay for it.
     
  41. FatAlan
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    FatAlan Trainee Trainee Access

    Location:
    Surrey
    I think there is a massive shortage of experienced operatives in a lot of professions out there at the moment. Even those with experience are chasing their arses due to legislation and bureaucracy changing every 30 seconds.
     
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  42. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    In my opinion, from what have seen, the Government are only interested in Apprenticeships for the higher end jobs, don't get me wrong please I'm the last person to assume or say that the trade of an Electrician is NOT at the higher end, far from it.

    Craft Apprenticeships seem to me to be far from the thoughts of the Whitehall Mandarins whose job it is to make sure the skill shortage is narrowed.

    During my working life it was not a surprise to me that many of these people treated the likes of Sparkies, Chippies in fact most all of the construction industry, especially the Domestic area as a bit of a joke, you know the sort of thing, you only have to listen to some of them, "oh I need to get a man around to come and fix my whatever" with no thought whatsoever of the training, not just Electricians, but the other trades as well have to go through.

    Until these Cretins realize that a 5 week course does not produce a decent Trades person, there are of course exceptions. Far too many times have we seen, heard about unskilled people practicing a trade that took skilled people years to learn.

    I'm not having a dig at anyone, unfortunately that's how it is done these days, and good luck to you, my gripe is with National Government for not seeing further than the nose on their faces, thinking "oh well we have set up all these training centers that will be good enough" well I have news for you guys, it isn't good enough. Bring back Apprenticeships in the engineering field for School leavers, just liuke it used to be, yes yes, I know get back in your cave Pete, but it worked didn't it.:mad::po_O:smilingimp:Rant over
     
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  43. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Hammer n nails that is my limit.
     
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  44. sparksburnout
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    sparksburnout Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Notts
    No need to get back in the cave Pete, it is true. The same successive governments have run the country down over years, selling off our assets and utilities, looking only for short term gain with no planning or thought for the future, and flooding the place with cheap labour. Now we are in a mess that will only get worse.
     
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  45. Barry White
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    Barry White Guest

    Agree Pete But its not just the "trades" nurses and doctors are getting less too because its "cheaper " to import them.
    Its unsure What will happen in the future Maybe BREXIT will help with this but I wouldn't hold my breath.
     
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