New CU and meter tails etc

[DPG]

I found shortcomings from both electricians, so I am not going ahead with any one of them.

One was the attitude to replace RCBO with MCB if fault can't be rectified, instead he should have said that we must rectify the fault as that can be dangerous.

The second one is the earth bonding. When I told him that the supply pipes are plastic up to the house boundary he said he will leave the water pipe but he will upgrade the bonding to gas pipe anyway.

Strima said that you guys will calculate in this scenario if bonding is required. I read about bonding in the following article.

https://electrical.electriciansforums.org/wiring-matters/years/2018/73-november-2018/myth-busters-2/

So it certainly makes a case to do proper assessment and calculation and then bond if required. So that is another thing

I will take few more quotes now because now I know what should I ask. I am fairly sure that old cables and sockets(MK brand) are in very good condition. The only sockets which I have doubt are relatively new ones fitted in the kitchen during kitchen refit about 9 years ago. They are of Lap. One was causing sparks during on/off and blew the fuse. I have changed 3 single Gang sockets with Schneider sockets. I will replace the other sockets in the kitchen too. Is Schneider fine or should I get the MK brand sockets.
May be I should just get an EICR first and if there is a need for rewire then sort that first at the first opportunity and then at the same time do the CU upgrade. If no faults then just do the CU upgrade. The new circuit in the kitchen can wait until that time.

Btw, a lot of you are emphasising on SPDs. I am still not convinced of their benefit in an average city house. Anyway if one has to go with SPD then is it allowed to mix different brands in a CU or not. I know you can't mix different brands RCD/RCBO/MCBs. Whatever make is the CU, it should be the same make components. So is it same for SPDs. I am asking this because there is huge difference on price of SPDs between different Makes?
Should I also go with AFDD as that provide additional protection too?
Thanks for all your help

If you are quibbling about the cost of installing SPDs then the price of AFDDs will blow your mind!

AFDDs are more of an unproven and unknown quantity. SPD technology has been around for a hell of a long time and it is well understood.

Don't waste time trying to mix and match manufacturers - you can get a full RCBO board with SPD included for not a lot of money. Check out 'Fusebox' as one make that people seem pretty positive about.

 

[pc1966]

Is Schneider fine or should I get the MK brand sockets.

Both are good but NOT the MK "essentials" range, they are utter rubbish and not even cheap enough to justify them!

My own choice has bee the MK Logic Plus range as they are sufficiently bland smooth white appearance not to seem out of place in most situations, and still have a pleasing feel/action/quality for a fair price. Also the switched Logic Plus 13A sockets are double-pole switches, not all are as the minimum requirement is SP switching when present.

Others on this forum will have favourites as well, but do chose one of the better brands as it is worth the odd quid extra per accessory.

 

[littlespark]

I’ve read right through this thread, and I have to concur with some of the points regarding rcd protection.

changing a board means having to work on every circuit, and protect with an rcd if required.... and newest regs require almost every circuit to be rcd protected.

To suggest replace an rcbo with an mcb is the modern equivalent of replacing a fuse with a nail to stop it blowing

I might be wrong here, but would your gas pipe be plastic coated copper rather than just plastic? Meaning it will need bonded.
Water pipe could well be plastic though.

 

[rajshar]

I don't know which MK type sockets we have. I just know that in the middle of the faceplate there is MK in a circle. I will look at the MK logic plus range.

I don't know about fuse box for SPD but looked at Wylex and that adds £75 more for SPD. The BG SPD is about £38 but a lot of people say don't go with BG. How is Fusebox in comparison to Wylex and Hager. The CU box itself is just a metal box and I don't think there is much difference between the different makes other than the cut outs etc. The actual difference is in the components going inside the CU.

I really don't get that why SPDs weren't made compulsory? Why majority of consumer boards being sold, don't have one?
The other point is about type A and AC RCD)RCBOs. There is no difference in price and type A offers better protection as it can deal with residual DC and still a lot of sellers are selling pre populated CU with type AC RCD/RCBOs. I even heard that a few European countries actually have banned type AC RCD/RCBOs.
One hand I am better off having the knowledge now and on the other hand a lot of questions in mind, why this, why not that and then I think I was better off when I didn't have this knowledge.
Thanks

 

[brianmoooore]

I might be wrong here, but would your gas pipe be plastic coated copper rather than just plastic? Meaning it will need bonded

There's also the point that no one seems to have told the average gas 'engineer' that plastic pipes don't need bonding, so it's sometimes easier to bond than to argue with the gas man.

 

[rajshar]

I’ve read right through this thread, and I have to concur with some of the points regarding rcd protection.

changing a board means having to work on every circuit, and protect with an rcd if required.... and newest regs require almost every circuit to be rcd protected.

To suggest replace an rcbo with an mcb is the modern equivalent of replacing a fuse with a nail to stop it blowing

I might be wrong here, but would your gas pipe be plastic coated copper rather than just plastic? Meaning it will need bonded.
Water pipe could well be plastic though.

I know that changing to MCB without RCD isn't the right thing as it takes away the protection which we are trying to get. For me then there isn't any point upgrading from wylex plug in mcbs to slightly different type of MCB. So no we won't do that.

Inside the house the water and gas, both are copper. Outside it is plastic . The plastic gas pipe was inserted in the existing metal pipe from the street. The same with water pipe. It is about few foot in plastic from the meter and then connects to a flexible lead pipe, going in to the house. The lead pipe is then connected to a copper pipe under the kitchen floor boards.

There is only about 2 meters of visible gas pipe, where the meter is, rest is all hidden. As far as water pipe is concerned, no visible part in kitchen. The visible water pipe in the bathroom is copper but under the floor boards it was changed to plastic some 10 years back so there is no continuity to the main water pipe.
Thanks

 

[brianmoooore]

If you still have a section of lead water pipe in use, I would get that replaced ASAP.

 

[rajshar]

If you still have a section of lead water pipe in use, I would get that replaced ASAP.

It's definitely lead pipe from outside into kitchen under floor. I remember seeing it when kitchen was fitted. Thames water should have known this as well when they changed to plastic pipe. Its about an inch in diameter and one can bend it easily.

No one ever said it should be replaced and now if we try to do it is going to cost thousands. Tiled floor in the kitchen, laminate in the hallway then the stairs in to the house and then the drive. Dig up, change the pipe then put back everything back to its original position.

Btw why it should be changed. Are there any health issues? Do you know if there were any guidance or instructions issued? I understand that I am responsible for the water pipe from the street boundary to my house so Thames water won't do it.
Thanks

 

[brianmoooore]

It doesn't necessarily need to follow the same route, or end up at the same place inside. I obviously don't know the specifics of your house, but there's often an alternative route.

 

[DPG]

It's definitely lead pipe from outside into kitchen under floor. I remember seeing it when kitchen was fitted. Thames water should have known this as well when they changed to plastic pipe. Its about an inch in diameter and one can bend it easily.

No one ever said it should be replaced and now if we try to do it is going to cost thousands. Tiled floor in the kitchen, laminate in the hallway then the stairs in to the house and then the drive. Dig up, change the pipe then put back everything back to its original position.

Btw why it should be changed. Are there any health issues? Do you know if there were any guidance or instructions issued? I understand that I am responsible for the water pipe from the street boundary to my house so Thames water won't do it.
Thanks

Makes sense to remove the lead pipe due to the obvious health risks it poses.

Having said that my Nan's house had lead piping all the way up the drive, through the yard and throughout the house and she lived to be 100.

 

[rajshar]

It doesn't necessarily need to follow the same route, or end up at the same place inside. I obviously don't know the specifics of your house, but there's often an alternative route.

I know the route. It's straight from the water meter through my drive then under the hallway and into the kitchen. I had seen this pipe when drive was done and I saw it again when kitchen floor was tiled. We had to replace few damaged joists that time. That's why I said no builder pointed this to me that this lead pipe should be changed. We had this opportunity twice and wasted those opportunities. Just got more info from Thames Water and it seems the risk is very very low and it can be reduced further by taking few steps.

Water quality | Help | Thames Water

Learn more about water quality in your area, including what to do if your water looks or smells different to normal.

www.thameswater.co.uk

Now I won't be digging up to replace this. It may be easier to dig up the drive but can't do the kitchen.
Thanks.

 

[rajshar]

Makes sense to remove the lead pipe due to the obvious health risks it poses.

Having said that my Nan's house had lead piping all the way up the drive, through the yard and throughout the house and she lived to be 100.

Thames water is saying that because of limescale build up inside the pipe there is very little chance of lead leaching in to the water. They also add phosphate which acts as a limescale too to prevent any leaching of lead. I have been living in this house for 15+ years and so far no new health issues.
Thanks

 

[DPG]

Thames water is saying that because of limescale build up inside the pipe there is very little chance of lead leaching in to the water. They also add phosphate which acts as a limescale too to prevent any leaching of lead. I have been living in this house for 15+ years and so far no new health issues.
Thanks

Fair enough. I personally would have removed the lead pipe, same as I would fit an SPD if I was fitting a new consumer unit. But it's the individual's choice.

 

[rajshar]

My wife has been insisting to get out of Croydon for some time and now I think there is a good reason to move away.

I wish there was an idiots guide to buy house with all these important points. Anyway got good pointers here for my next house.
Make sure the electricity wiring is up to standard and no DIY surprises. If not bring it up to the standard before move in.
Check and if needed, replace anything under floor including water pipe because it is much more expensive once you start living.

 

[DPG]

My wife has been insisting to get out of Croydon for some time and now I think there is a good reason to move away.

I wish there was an idiots guide to buy house with all these important points. Anyway got good pointers here for my next house.
Make sure the electricity wiring is up to standard and no DIY surprises. If not bring it up to the standard before move in.
Check and if needed, replace anything under floor including water pipe because it is much more expensive once you start living.

It's also easy to worry too much sometimes though.

It's good that you look into things. A lot of people take absolutely no interest in their electrical system.

 

[pc1966]

I really don't get that why SPDs weren't made compulsory? Why majority of consumer boards being sold, don't have one?

To all intents and purposes they now are, the TL;DR version of the 18th edition regulation 443.4 is they shall be fitted in many cases (risk to life, business interruption, impacts many people), and in all other cases a risk assessment shall be performed. It then goes on to detail the risk assessment process 443.5 based on lightning flash density in the region, style of distribution network, etc.

The get-out is the bit where it says "except for a single dwelling unit where the total value of the installation and equipment therein doe not justify such protection".

So if you don't value your stuff and go with the cheapest bid, guess what happens?

The other point is about type A and AC RCD)RCBOs. There is no difference in price and type A offers better protection as it can deal with residual DC and still a lot of sellers are selling pre populated CU with type AC RCD/RCBOs. I even heard that a few European countries actually have banned type AC RCD/RCBOs.

It is looking like the 2nd amendment to the 18th regulations will also greatly reduce the allowable range of applications of type AC RCD in the UK as well.

I guess the main reason they are still sold is they have been fractionally cheaper to make in legacy designs and/or a lot of back stock to get rid off. Certainly I would always go with type A as the minimum specification for anything now, as they are available from most suppliers and the new compact RCBO generally are all type A.

 

[Babs]

Thanks Strima, telectrix and westward10.
I thought the earth cable from cutout with the tag "Do not remove" is the main earth and it is going in to the fuse board, routed behind the ply board. My understanding is that my electrician should upgrade the tails to 25mm from the meter to CU, regardless what is from the cut out. He should also be able to upgrade the earth bonding from the CU to gas/water pipe provided I still need it as the street pipes are plastic.

What can I ask the suppliers electrician other than his usual work of fitting an isolator. Obviously he is going to take the fuse out for a safe work environment. If I supply him the tails and earth cable, can he change them. Obviously a lot will depend on his mood and schedule.
Here is the pic as requested.

Rajshar,
I don't think you understand the knowledge you are portraying. What size is your cut-out fuse? What's the maximum ampage 16mm and 25mm cables can safely carry? If the DNO have attached 16mm to your cut-out why do you want to replace them with 25mm?
Why can't the quoted electricians fit an isolator, that's the simplest job of the lot. A qualified leccy would 100% definitely not allow a customer to purchase the tails and isolator. Too much knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[rajshar]

My wife has been insisting to get out of Croydon for some time and now I think there is a good reason to move away.

I wish there was an idiots guide to buy house with all these important points. Anyway got good pointers here for my next house.
Make sure the electricity wiring is up to standard and no DIY surprises. If not bring it up to the standard before move in.
Check and if needed, replace anything under floor including water pipe because it is much more expensive once you start living.
This

To all intents and purposes they now are, the TL;DR version of the 18th edition regulation 443.4 is they shall be fitted in many cases (risk to life, business interruption, impacts many people), and in all other cases a risk assessment shall be performed. It then goes on to detail the risk assessment process 443.5 based on lightning flash density in the region, style of distribution network, etc.

The get-out is the bit where it says "except for a single dwelling unit where the total value of the installation and equipment therein doe not justify such protection".

So if you don't value your stuff and go with the cheapest bid, guess what happens?


It is looking like the 2nd amendment to the 18th regulations will also greatly reduce the allowable range of applications of type AC RCD in the UK as well.

I guess the main reason they are still sold is they have been fractionally cheaper to make in legacy designs and/or a lot of back stock to get rid off. Certainly I would always go with type A as the minimum specification for anything now, as they are available from most suppliers and the new compact RCBO generally are all type A.

I read in one of the threads that risk assessment has been made so difficult that it is easier to fit one than going through all the hassles. That doesn't prove it is necessary to fit one. If they really save life and damage to products then just like RCD they should have been made compulsory rather than leaving grey lines. What I have read and concluded is that there are areas which will definitely benefit from having one and there are areas where they aren't necessarily. My area isn't prone to lightning and the supply cable is undergoing.

Despite my reservations, I looked at a Fusebox CU with pre fitted SPD and its price is not much more than a standard BG consumer unit and almost half the price than wylex or Hager. So if Fusebox is good I may go with this one

F2014MX 14WAY T2 SPD FUSEBOX - FuseBox

F2014MX 14WAY T2 SPD FUSEBOX DESIGN FEATURES BS EN 61439-3 IP20XC 1mm ELECTRO GALVANISED STEEL (ZINC) RAL9001 SMOOTH POWDER COATED FINISH T2 SURGE PROTECTION TAIL CLAMP (ACCF) EARTH AND NEUTRAL TERMINAL BARS AT THE TOP REMOVEABLE AND RAISED DIN RAIL ROUND EASY TO REMOVE KNOCKOUTS EXTRA HEIGHT...

cpelectric.co.uk

Just need to understand the difference between the all integrated double module Wylex SPD and the Fusebox single module SPD with a MCB.
Thanks

 

[Strima]

Just need to understand the difference between the all integrated double module Wylex SPD and the Fusebox single module SPD with a MCB.

Some manufacturers specify a certain protective device size for their SPDs and use an MCB within the board, others are happy for the suppliers fuse, normally up to 100 amps, to provide overcurrent protection for their SPDs. You need to dig into the manufacturers instructions.

For example Wylex are happy with <=125 amp protection:

SPDs are not just about lightning strikes, they also protect against heavy surges put on the network by things such as heavy industrial switching for example.

 

[rajshar]

Some manufacturers specify a certain protective device size for their SPDs and use an MCB within the board, others are happy for the suppliers fuse, normally up to 100 amps, to provide overcurrent protection for their SPDs. You need to dig into the manufacturers instructions.

For example Wylex are happy with <=125 amp protection:

View attachment 65515

SPDs are not just about lightning strikes, they also protect against heavy surges put on the network by things such as heavy industrial switching for example.

Thanks for clarification Strima.

 

[rajshar]

Rajshar,
I don't think you understand the knowledge you are portraying. What size is your cut-out fuse? What's the maximum ampage 16mm and 25mm cables can safely carry? If the DNO have attached 16mm to your cut-out why do you want to replace them with 25mm?
Why can't the quoted electricians fit an isolator, that's the simplest job of the lot. A qualified leccy would 100% definitely not allow a customer to purchase the tails and isolator. Too much knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I think you have misunderstood me. It's true I don't have the knowledge at par with you guys nor I am trying to be an electrician, I am just trying to understand the general bits. If I had no knowledge and I didn't ask here then I would have gone ahead with one of those two electricians, who would have done a shoddy job.

The isolator is being fitted by British gas, the electricity supplier. My electrician will work from isolator. Some of you guys said that they will install 25mm tails and 16mm earth but that will be from isolator. So I asked the question that can I ask the British Gas electrician to fit 25mm tails up to isolator and if required I can provide him the tails. This is the reason I ask the question as I don't know that he will do this or not.
If fuse is 100amp in the cutout then he should fit the rated cables anyway. If fuse isn't 100amp then we will have to ask the DNO to upgrade the fuse and they will only upgrade the fuse if the rated cables are already there. My understanding is that DNO won't touch the tails as it isn't their responsibility.

 

[Babs]

I think you have misunderstood me. It's true I don't have the knowledge at par with you guys nor I am trying to be an electrician, I am just trying to understand the general bits. If I had no knowledge and I didn't ask here then I would have gone ahead with one of those two electricians, who would have done a shoddy job.

The isolator is being fitted by British gas, the electricity supplier. My electrician will work from isolator. Some of you guys said that they will install 25mm tails and 16mm earth but that will be from isolator. So I asked the question that can I ask the British Gas electrician to fit 25mm tails up to isolator and if required I can provide him the tails. This is the reason I ask the question as I don't know that he will do this or not.
If fuse is 100amp in the cutout then he should fit the rated cables anyway. If fuse isn't 100amp then we will have to ask the DNO to upgrade the fuse and they will only upgrade the fuse if the rated cables are already there. My understanding is that DNO won't touch the tails as it isn't their responsibility.

I think you have misunderstood me. It's true I don't have the knowledge at par with you guys nor I am trying to be an electrician, I am just trying to understand the general bits. If I had no knowledge and I didn't ask here then I would have gone ahead with one of those two electricians, who would have done a shoddy job.

The isolator is being fitted by British gas, the electricity supplier. My electrician will work from isolator. Some of you guys said that they will install 25mm tails and 16mm earth but that will be from isolator. So I asked the question that can I ask the British Gas electrician to fit 25mm tails up to isolator and if required I can provide him the tails. This is the reason I ask the question as I don't know that he will do this or not.
If fuse is 100amp in the cutout then he should fit the rated cables anyway. If fuse isn't 100amp then we will have to ask the DNO to upgrade the fuse and they will only upgrade the fuse if the rated cables are already there. My understanding is that DNO won't touch the tails as it isn't their responsibility.

Rajshar,
Your comments strengthen my belief that you are out of your depth with your questions to "experts" for want of a better word. You keep mentioning the 100 amp cut-out and asking the DNO to upgrade it to 100 amp. You obviously don't realise that almost every family dwelling will operate on a 60 amp fuse, 80 amps in extreme cases. To satisfy yourself, go around your house at any time and see what is switched on and approx how much ampage is being used. I'll bet you never get to more than 30.

 

[rajshar]

Rajshar,
Your comments strengthen my belief that you are out of your depth with your questions to "experts" for want of a better word. You keep mentioning the 100 amp cut-out and asking the DNO to upgrade it to 100 amp. You obviously don't realise that almost every family dwelling will operate on a 60 amp fuse, 80 amps in extreme cases. To satisfy yourself, go around your house at any time and see what is switched on and approx how much ampage is being used. I'll bet you never get to more than 30.

You can think of what you want to think. It may be that 60 or 80amp is enough at this time. There is something called future proof. How about tomorrow we want an EV point?
DNO has no problem to upgrade the fuse if rated cables are there. I as a customer don't want to pay again for 25mm tails if it can be installed now.
Now having knowledge or asking questions, I don't think there is anything wrong asking. You can ignore this thread if you think I am wrong.

 

[Babs]

You can think of what you want to think. It may be that 60 or 80amp is enough at this time. There is something called future proof. How about tomorrow we want an EV point?
DNO has no problem to upgrade the fuse if rated cables are there. I as a customer don't want to pay again for 25mm tails if it can be installed now.
Now having knowledge or asking questions, I don't think there is anything wrong asking. You can ignore this thread if you think I am wrong.

It's all to do with diversity. Presumably you understand what diversity is regarding electricity.

 

[rajshar]

I do understand diversity and I know we don't use all the appliances and other stuff at the same time. Just like so many others, we do have plans for Electric Vehicle.

I think this post is becoming unnecessary lengthy. The original question has been answered and now I know how to proceed with my next quote and what questions to ask.

Thanks to everyone who contributed positively and suggested what should be done.
Thanks

 

[Babs]

I do understand diversity and I know we don't use all the appliances and other stuff at the same time. Just like so many others, we do have plans for Electric Vehicle.

I think this post is becoming unnecessary lengthy. The original question has been answered and now I know how to proceed with my next quote and what questions to ask.

Thanks to everyone who contributed positively and suggested what should be done.
Thanks

No problem Rajshar. I enjoyed the discussion.

 

[DPG]

I do understand diversity and I know we don't use all the appliances and other stuff at the same time. Just like so many others, we do have plans for Electric Vehicle.

I think this post is becoming unnecessary lengthy. The original question has been answered and now I know how to proceed with my next quote and what questions to ask.

Thanks to everyone who contributed positively and suggested what should be done.
Thanks

We can drag out a thread on here, don't you worry ?

You do raise a good point though. Whereas in the past any house would be fine on a 60 Amp fuse, things are changing a little with the higher output EV chargers. Having said that, a lot of them have current monitoring and can throttle back if the household usage is peaking.

 

[brianmoooore]

Having said that, a lot of them have current monitoring and can throttle back if the household usage is peaking.

It'll have to go further than that, with whole area monitoring by some means. The existing infrastructure isn't remotely capable of providing even 60A to each household at the same time.
Maybe you'll be required to have a second battery in the house that charges intelligently when it can, in preparation for discharging itself quickly into the car battery.

 

[Gurnatronics]

You can think of what you want to think. It may be that 60 or 80amp is enough at this time. There is something called future proof. How about tomorrow we want an EV point?
DNO has no problem to upgrade the fuse if rated cables are there. I as a customer don't want to pay again for 25mm tails if it can be installed now.
Now having knowledge or asking questions, I don't think there is anything wrong asking. You can ignore this thread if you think I am wrong.

tinfoil hat on

Don’t worry the DNO will remotely drop your smart EV charger via information obtained by its smart meter to 10A during peak load anyway so no need to worry about Fuse or tails size