NIC Rip off

[markythesparky]

Is it just me or do other feel like the NICEIC are ripping us off?

We have been a member of the NICEIC for over 16 years and initially we just had the obligatory half day visit, which is included in the annual fee.

One year we had about 6 months work in Doncaster (we are based in South London) and consequently, at the inspection, the NICEIC wished to see the job as it made up a substantial part of the years work. No problem and I didn't even mind paying the extra dollars!

Anyway, ever since then they always booked us for a full days visit and charge me the extra £388 (which is for the extra half day as half a day is already I included in the annual fee).

Over the last four years or so the work has dropped off and is nowhere near as far afield. So this year I questioned why we still needed the extra half day. I was told by an operative at NICEIC HQ, that this decision was down to the inspector. I reminded her that he wouldn't know until he turned up by which time it would be to late as she had booked him out for the whole day already. Which was why I was trying to be helpful and was letting them know now. Again she insisted that she couldn't do anything and that it was the inspectors decision.

He turned up and after looking at the work agreed that there was not enough to see over the whole day. From 10 or so Certs he picked out the only four installation jobs that we had, as the others we small and not worth seeing, and after making calls to them I told him that we couldn't get in to any as they was all residential and the clients were at work.

He told me that he'd have to mark this down as a major non compliance as we couldn't see any work and I would need another half day visit (£388!). I said what about the half day that's booked for today? He told me that he'd get them to cancel the invoice.

I informed him that I was not happy as how could this be my fault when I had told his office that there was not enough work and then when he chose which jobs to look at, we couldn't get in anyway.

He replied that there was a lesson to be learned and that I would need to make sure I arranged the jobs in future.
'We're not allowed to do that', I replied, 'we're not allowed to choose which jobs you see!'
'Well', he said, 'Something is better than nothing at all!'

Now tell me this guys, it's not me is it? It's not as if the annual fee is cheap anyway, but to lever the other £388 or so, in any ay they can, amounts to a con doesn't it?

I've been around long enough to realise when something doesn't smell right, and generally speaking, if I feel that I am being done, then some thing is definitely amiss!

I am on the verge of telling them to poke the membership and we will go elsewhere.

Your thoughts on the situation, what the other scam schemes are like and similar experiences would be gratefully received.

 

[Anthony S]

Wouldn't entertain any of them, why do you need to pay an organisation to keep an eye on you ?

 

[markythesparky]

Trouble is that architects have always specified NICEIC approved contractors. This still seem to be the case even though there are more schemes now.

 

[Anthony S]

Architects can specify what they like, don't mean their right and a lot of the time its just copied from a set format inserted in the spec or onto a drawing.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I've always picked the jobs and booked them in with the customer. I'd never let the nic inspector have free rein.

 

[Andy78]

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT !

Yes the NICEIC are a con. Yes their customer services are a joke. No, they don't give a ---- about any of their registered contractors or the customers they serve.

Here's how they treated my workmate.

NICEIC "Here's your assessment date, it's less than 21 days from now"
Sparky "But I can't make that and it costs me to cancel within 21 days"
NICEIC "Well we sent sent the letter before then. We must have done because that's what we are telling you"
Sparky "But I didn't receive it before then"
NICEIC "Tough"
Sparky "But why couldn't you have notified me sooner, or sent an email, or sent a text, or called me to confirm like Elecsa do with my mate Andy78 ?"
NICEIC "Our systems aren't set up for advanced things like emails or phone calls you know, even though we bombard you constantly with emails about things we want to sell you. We can only send letters and we never have any problems. It must be just you."
Sparky "But the last operative I spoke to about this said you have lots of problems related to this flawed system that seems to be designed to catch people out with charges"
NICEIC "Oh, well, she shouldn't have said that"
Sparky "Right well I'll cancel then as this is the third time in a row you have mismanaged the yearly assessment process"
NICEIC "Yeah ok. We are still charging you though"

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Trouble is that architects have always specified NICEIC approved contractors. This still seem to be the case even though there are more schemes now.

No trouble. Use an enlightened architect instead.

 

[baldsparkies]

Cheap option for signing off domestic notifiable's.
That's it.
The rest is BS £££££££££££££

 

[Welchyboy1]

I had the exactly the same thing with the half day - full day episode

i took this up with my assessor, eventually he got me a refund on my extra half day, but got this years date through and its a full day again, i think they do this as standard now, cheeky gits! All them extra half days dont half mount up i imagine

they actually wanted payment for the additional half day last year before i even had my assesment!, i refused!

 

[markythesparky]

I had the exactly the same thing with the half day - full day episode

i took this up with my assessor, eventually he got me a refund on my extra half day, but got this years date through and its a full day again, i think they do this as standard now, cheeky gits! All them extra half days dont half mount up i imagine

they actually wanted payment for the additional half day last year before i even had my assesment!, i refused!

Yep it works out that we're now paying somewhere around £850 a year before any notification and cert costs. They tried to get payment from me early too, and I too refused. The thing is, they are watching us but who do we complain to?

 

[NoSparks]

I had problems with the NICEIC and left. ELECSA is much more friendly.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I had problems with the NICEIC and left. ELECSA is much more friendly.

They're the same.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I've always picked the jobs and booked them in with the customer. I'd never let the nic inspector have free rein.

As above,prior to the visit we pick out around half a dozen jobs and arrange access,the inspector can choose which ones he goes to. Our inspector always picks one EICR as a job and views that from the office PC only!

 

[markythesparky]

As above,prior to the visit we pick out around half a dozen jobs and arrange access,the inspector can choose which ones he goes to. Our inspector always picks one EICR as a job and views that from the office PC only!

what happens to the poor clients who have arranged to take time off to let you in, in the case of domestic work?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

what happens to the poor clients who have arranged to take time off to let you in, in the case of domestic work?

The arrangement is made on the basis that the inspector may or may not visit. Obviously we would not expect anyone to have time off or wait in. Most clients if you explain the situation are happy to arrange for a key to be available if they are not around. as for commercial jobs then they are likely to be around,and only need warning that you might show a face.

 

[NoSparks]

They're the same.

They may be heading in that direction now, and there are some coordinated features that I do not like, but the ELECSA inspectors that I have had are much more friendly and actually seem to know what they are talking about.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

They may be heading in that direction now, and there are some coordinated features that I do not like, but the ELECSA inspectors that I have had are much more friendly and actually seem to know what they are talking about.

Fair enough. I just meant they are physically the same company. Certsure.

both of them.

 

[GrahamBrighton]

One word;

STROMA

£288 for the whole year, my assessment was completed by a nice bloke (about 1.5hrs) , and he had no issue with changing the location of the works to be inspected on the day due to an access issue.

Easy

My only gripe is that their website is a clunky, but thats easily forgivable considering the savings of stress, time and ££!

 

[GMES]

One word;

STROMA

£288 for the whole year, my assessment was completed by a nice bloke (about 1.5hrs) , and he had no issue with changing the location of the works to be inspected on the day due to an access issue.

Easy

My only gripe is that their website is a clunky, but thats easily forgivable considering the savings of stress, time and ££!

If I'm honest that sounds worse £288 for 1.5 hours, Our Niceic guy was there for a full shift over 5 jobs and was very thorough, He went through everything on site and office.

 

[Risteard]

Fair enough. I just meant they are physically the same company. Certsure.

both of them.

Presumably it's the same parent company as opposed to them being the same company.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

One word;

STROMA

£288 for the whole year, my assessment was completed by a nice bloke (about 1.5hrs) , and he had no issue with changing the location of the works to be inspected on the day due to an access issue.

Easy

My only gripe is that their website is a clunky, but thats easily forgivable considering the savings of stress, time and ££!

Great,until you are tendering for work which requires accreditation (local authority,insurance etc) which 99% of the time will need to be NICEIC. Wont seem such good value then.

 

[Guest77]

Wouldn't entertain any of them, why do you need to pay an organisation to keep an eye on you ?

Unfortunately due to your inexperience it will be difficult to answer that question because I just think you will not understand the answer, One day you will feel embarrassed by that question, I hope for your future it is sooner rather than later.

 

[Guest77]

Architects can specify what they like, don't mean their right and a lot of the time its just copied from a set format inserted in the spec or onto a drawing.

Again you have embarrassed yourself, if you are ever going to become a company which thrives with employees you will cringe at your reply here.

 

[Guest77]

One word;

STROMA
!

One word- Pants.

 

[Guest77]

Great,until you are tendering for work which requires accreditation (local authority,insurance etc) which 99% of the time will need to be NICEIC. Wont seem such good value then.

Hear Hear, well said, unfortunately only myself and you on this thread will probably understand your reply, very inexperienced guys on the forum as of late.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Hear Hear, well said, unfortunately only myself and you on this thread will probably understand your reply, very inexperienced guys on the forum as of late.

I am an approved contractor, have been for 10 years. I do a lot of work for a company who specialise in fire and flood restoration through insurance companies,I wouldn't get a second look if I wasn't. And a builder who I work for does his 10year guarantee through zurich instead of nhbc on new builds and zurich stipulate approved contractor (may have changed now but this was certainly the case when I first started doing their work).

 

[Anthony S]

Unfortunately due to your inexperience it will be difficult to answer that question because I just think you will not understand the answer, One day you will feel embarrassed by that question, I hope for your future it is sooner rather than later.

Worked as a QS for a NIC company many years ago, not interested in none of the scheme now. I do fine just having a JIB ticket and earn a living Thanks.

No embarrassment on my behalf for asking a question.

 

[Anthony S]

Again you have embarrassed yourself, if you are ever going to become a company which thrives with employees you will cringe at your reply here.

You enjoy trolling and that's embarrassing.

 

[GMES]

Can we keep it on track guys, this is an Handbag free zone:toetap05:

 

[Anthony S]

Can we keep it on track guys, this is an Handbag free zone:toetap05:

I don't come on the forum to try and sort members out, MDJ does and there's no need for it.

 

[Guest77]

You enjoy trolling and that's embarrassing.

My reply was not anything but truthful, I have been there and got the Tshirt, your comments were ridiculous and therefore for the sake of others reading this thread needed putting down, you have no idea what you are talking about regarding Architects and projects and to suggest there is no merit in being checked annually by an organisiation like the NICEIC or indeed others is also wrong and foolish. Nearly all competant companies need to be in a scheme to be legal and above board and to gain merit, your views are totally wrong, To suggest I am trolling is appalling, however that said if that is all you can come up with I feel quite happy my initial comments about you being out of your depth and embarrassing quite justified.

 

[Guest77]

Can we keep it on track guys, this is an Handbag free zone:toetap05:

I have not got off track Glenn, we all know being in a scheme is a requirement these days, all local athorities expect companies to be audicated regarding work and insurances etc or they do not get on lists, and why should they, inspection of installations annually and investigation of insurance and having appropriate testing equipment and knowlege of health and safety and indeed ensuring employees are covered by tool box talks and have instruction of safety must be paramount, this is the subject in hand, Anthony is out of his depth and started to attempt toinsult me due to being inexperienced, I accept his comments, but we both know he is wrong.

 

[Guest77]

I don't come on the forum to try and sort members out, MDJ does and there's no need for it.

well at least give decent replies, to suggest being kept an eye on by a exterior body is in someway crazy is just plain daft on this occassion, all decent companies are checked annually, without the checks they would not get work from large businesses or indeed local authorities regarding public money's.

 

[Anthony S]

My reply was not anything but truthful, I have been there and got the Tshirt, your comments were ridiculous and therefore for the sake of others reading this thread needed putting down, you have no idea what you are talking about regarding Architects and projects and to suggest there is no merit in being checked annually by an organisiation like the NICEIC or indeed others is also wrong and foolish. Nearly all competant companies need to be in a scheme to be legal and above board and to gain merit, your views are totally wrong, To suggest I am trolling is appalling, however that said if that is all you can come up with I feel quite happy my initial comments about you being out of your depth and embarrassing quite justified.

Your reply is your opinion, nothing more nothing less. There's no legal requirements for a company to be in scheme - FACT

 

[Guest77]

I don't come on the forum to try and sort members out, MDJ does and there's no need for it.

I do not either Anthony, I have no interest in trying to belittle you at all, but your views here stink, there are possibly hundreds of one man bands reading this forum and they need to know being in a scheme if they carry out installations is really a good move, your comments are just plain wrong, unless you get to change the law try not to suggest it is not a requirement, unless they add on 300 quid every time they price a job they will need to be moinitored by a scheme, the schemes usually charge around 2 quid for self notification and as far as I have heard it is not changing anytime in the future, so being in the NICEIC or indeed an equivilent is a requirment not a silly thing to do, if not getting work could be difficult as adding 300 notes onto everyjob you price may mean you get next to no work at all, and regarding public money, any work relating to it will be out of your grasp.

 

[Guest77]

Your reply is your opinion, nothing more nothing less. There's no legal requirements for a company to be in scheme - FACT

Legally you need to notify your work in most cases domestically, doing it yourself is 300 notes, through a scheme £1.99 and being in a scheme means you are audited, something a lot of potential employers insist on these days.

 

[Guest77]

Is it just me or do other feel like the NICEIC are ripping us off?

We have been a member of the NICEIC for over 16 years and initially we just had the obligatory half day visit, which is included in the annual fee.

One year we had about 6 months work in Doncaster (we are based in South London) and consequently, at the inspection, the NICEIC wished to see the job as it made up a substantial part of the years work. No problem and I didn't even mind paying the extra dollars!

Anyway, ever since then they always booked us for a full days visit and charge me the extra £388 (which is for the extra half day as half a day is already I included in the annual fee).

Over the last four years or so the work has dropped off and is nowhere near as far afield. So this year I questioned why we still needed the extra half day. I was told by an operative at NICEIC HQ, that this decision was down to the inspector. I reminded her that he wouldn't know until he turned up by which time it would be to late as she had booked him out for the whole day already. Which was why I was trying to be helpful and was letting them know now. Again she insisted that she couldn't do anything and that it was the inspectors decision.

He turned up and after looking at the work agreed that there was not enough to see over the whole day. From 10 or so Certs he picked out the only four installation jobs that we had, as the others we small and not worth seeing, and after making calls to them I told him that we couldn't get in to any as they was all residential and the clients were at work.

He told me that he'd have to mark this down as a major non compliance as we couldn't see any work and I would need another half day visit (£388!). I said what about the half day that's booked for today? He told me that he'd get them to cancel the invoice.

I informed him that I was not happy as how could this be my fault when I had told his office that there was not enough work and then when he chose which jobs to look at, we couldn't get in anyway.

He replied that there was a lesson to be learned and that I would need to make sure I arranged the jobs in future.
'We're not allowed to do that', I replied, 'we're not allowed to choose which jobs you see!'
'Well', he said, 'Something is better than nothing at all!'

Now tell me this guys, it's not me is it? It's not as if the annual fee is cheap anyway, but to lever the other £388 or so, in any ay they can, amounts to a con doesn't it?

I've been around long enough to realise when something doesn't smell right, and generally speaking, if I feel that I am being done, then some thing is definitely amiss!

I am on the verge of telling them to poke the membership and we will go elsewhere.

Your thoughts on the situation, what the other scam schemes are like and similar experiences would be gratefully received.

I feel your pain and frustration Buddy, I really do, I was feeling similar as well a year or two back, they seem to have got to worried about profit rather than the contractor who funds them, 30 years ago they were the cream of the milk, today they are just one of 3-4, might be worth shopping around, if they start to lose members they may in the future realise they have dropped an almighty clanger and change their ways, well lets hope so.

 

[uksparks]

I've always picked the jobs and booked them in with the customer. I'd never let the nic inspector have free rein.

Likewise, he might pick some of my dodgy bodged jobs, I'd rather keep them under wraps.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Likewise, he might pick some of my dodgy bodged jobs, I'd rather keep them under wraps.

Haha..... I don't care what any one says everyone has a few skeletons in the closet lol.

 

[Guest77]

I was a QS for 18 years and always got around the inspector, I hid the jobs I didn't want him to go to and made sure the others were 100% immaculate lol, I had one re-visit once around 15 years ago and it wasn't my fault haha, Joking aside though he did do a thorough job and I felt we had our money's worth, today though they are different and there are others which do the same job.

 

[uksparks]

Yes we all have a few things we would rather not disclose, I never do anything dangerous etc, it's just some things slightly bend the rules.

im like you, just give them 5 immaculate jobs you know are 100% and all is usually ok.

 

[GMES]

Well all I can say is I must have one of Mike's old ones, because our Nic assessor is very thorough he was with us for a full day and looked at 5 jobs. he went through the jobs and our office with a fine tooth comb and too be fair couldn't have been more helpful, we even spoke an handful of times the following couple of days.

For the record I am also of the same mindset as MDJ, it is naive these days to think you don't need to be accredited to get the work, we were busy in general before but since becoming Approved contractors the work has just snowballed and the quality of work and customer has improved.and as an extra my hourly went straight up following requests by certain customers stipulating Niceic, so for my company it was the right thing to do.

 

[markythesparky]

I take all the above on board although some of it is slightly off topic. My point is that I don't have a problem with a full days visit (if it is really warranted), any inspector assessing my work, or any inspector choosing which work see. What I do have a problem with is £388 for what ultimately amounts to around three hours and that if it is stretched out by the inspector.

Our first four or five years was done within the included half day and I don't see any reason, considering our current workload and job locations, why this cannot now be done again within the same time frame. It maybe a challenge but we all, as electricians, have to be conscious of costs for the clients as naturally we wouldn't otherwise get the work.

We need to work harder to get the job done in a reasonable timeframe so as not to push the cost up. But the NICEIC don't seem to be bothered by the cost to its clients (us!) and they don't seem to be operating in a competitive market.

The NICEIC may not be any 'better' than any other scheme operator, it's just that they seem to have started to operate like a monopoly. Hence, the outrageous prices.

What needs to happen is that the architects and others like them need to be informed that it is not just the NICEIC approved electricians who can sign off the work, but any approved electrician from any scheme operator. All the time the architects and insurance companies are specifically asking for NICEIC approved contractors, we will be ripped of by the. NICEIC.

Someone said on here that if sparks start leaving the NICEIC to go to another scheme, the NIC may actually sit up and take note, but in order for that to be a viable option for the electrician, the architects and insurance companies need to stop specifying NICEIC Approves contractors.

Suggestions on how to do this would be helpful as I am determined to at least get the ball rolling towards this end.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Presumably it's the same parent company as opposed to them being the same company.

Well, yes, thats probably how it works.

we could get into a debate about differences of degree but..... Or.... i could just say yes you are right :smiley2:

 

[Jolec]

I've had the all day trick too. They have you by the bits though as people in general as well as commercial clients ask for NIC membership. if you ditch them you will have to alter your business somewhat and risk another association like elecsa or similar.

REAL get on my nerves even more, I'd like to know who they are paying their back hander too?

 

[markythesparky]

Job specifiers probably.? The other schemes need to get their act together and push their own Part P schemes. Let's face it, the NICEIC are not brilliant at advertising themselves, they've only had sixty odd years and they never got as powerful as Corgi did. The number of clients I deal with who still have never heard of Part P is simply staggering