No bonding!! How many times?

[Wonderwall]

Just wondering what other sparkys experiences are on this.
Whether I am carrying out an EICR , or installing a new circuit in a premise ( usually domestic) I would estimate that main and supplementary bonding is not in place around 20% of the time .
Whether that is its never been in place or our friendly plumbers have chosen to snip the earth wire off because they changed a pipe !
Then trying to explain to the customer that I will need to spend a fair bit of time determining whether it exists or not is a constant pain in my life . How do other people overcome this?
Mrs Smith wants a new socket , and I am asking to see her gas and water pipe , I can see them looking at me thinking. " what are you on about here!!" Previous sparks have installed stuff and left !!!
It also leads me think that so many properties do not have it in place , and very little problems occur . I can understand the customers reluctance to pay more hours work and material that they don't think they require .
I have lost a few jobs because of this.
Interested to here what you all come across , and how you overcome it .

 

[Risteard]

I agree with you. It's a real problem. They never understand why you are checking incoming water and oil pipes. I don't suppose there's any easy answer though. It doesn't help when others try to tell them that it's a minor issue - BS7671 certainly does not promote that view given that you cannot do anything otherwise.

 

[Wonderwall]

So what do you do Risteard?
I am a boring stickler for the rules , but I do question myself , and the regs wondering if I am fulfilling a needless task . Especially in the days of RCDs . I understand these can fail and all other options need covered , but I suppose I wish I understood the whole science of it all .
I suspect I am not alone, hence my question on other peoples option and experiences.

 

[cliffed]

Agree,i did a Eicr on biggest commercial property,it wasn’t their first one,but our first inspection & test on the property.
Main Issues were the Main Earth & Earth bonding these did not comply.
On all Eicr before ,this was not picked up,we recently upgraded the Main Earth bonding conductors,to comply.
This was an exception to the rule,other properties are left,& not complying to latest regs.

 

[Pete999]

Just wondering what other sparkys experiences are on this.
Whether I am carrying out an EICR , or installing a new circuit in a premise ( usually domestic) I would estimate that main and supplementary bonding is not in place around 20% of the time .
Whether that is its never been in place or our friendly plumbers have chosen to snip the earth wire off because they changed a pipe !
Then trying to explain to the customer that I will need to spend a fair bit of time determining whether it exists or not is a constant pain in my life . How do other people overcome this?
Mrs Smith wants a new socket , and I am asking to see her gas and water pipe , I can see them looking at me thinking. " what are you on about here!!" Previous sparks have installed stuff and left !!!
It also leads me think that so many properties do not have it in place , and very little problems occur . I can understand the customers reluctance to pay more hours work and material that they don't think they require .
I have lost a few jobs because of this.
Interested to here what you all come across , and how you overcome it .

Show them the relavent regulations, and try and explain what bonding does, the trouble is customers these days know little or nothing about the dangers of poor installation practices, now GAS thats a different ball game, there's Gassafe and thats it none of these cash cowboy scams to worry about, if there is no bonding in place, then sorry you may have to walk away from the job, after all it's your name on the certificate, and should anything go wrong due to lack of any main bonding, it will be your neck on the chopping. block

 

[Octopus]

Again this is more a failing of those in their ivory towers not understanding the impact of their actions.

When such regs are changed or implemented (think AMD3 as the example), how much marketing / advertising was done to educate Joe Public - a big fact zero.

Mrs Jones hasn't got any bonding, and wants a loft light ...... she's thinking £75 for the light ............... but you deliver the not so good news about the inadequate equipotential bonding so that adds £200

Dave the handy man fits the light for £60 and he can't even test the work. Mrs Jones gets what she wants and saves a few bob. Safety gets passed over again.

Madness.

 

[Last plumber]

our friendly plumbers have chosen to snip the earth wire off because they changed a pipe !

Personally I always put it back.

Heating Engineers, Plumbers, Gas Fitters do have a responsibility to check for supplementary and equipotential bonding. Particularly where we alter pipe-work and services. A lot don't seem to bother though.

I think there is a distinct lack of knowledge and understanding in all trades at the moment. There is also a
'not my job mate/i've not seen it/it'll be alright', attitude.

I came across a house with no mains Earth because the 'Spark' had altered it whilst changing a CU.
He was probably newly qualified or lacking in experience (which is fair enough) but had he tested his work instead of relying on those 'text book' figures they use, he would have known it was wrong and hopefully investigated and rectified it.
I spoke to the customer who produced a written installation cert and an NIC cert. All paperwork was there, just no Earth.
How can a qualified and registered Electrician leave that? What else has he left in his wake?
I think the standards of training both in college and on-site have dropped significantly over the years. I can't think of any other explanation for the things I see day to day.

The reason I found it was because I was casting my eye over it the earthing whilst carrying out a tightness test at the meter.

You're right with the missing bonding I would agree with the 20%.

 

[Midwest]

So what do you do Risteard?
I am a boring stickler for the rules , but I do question myself , and the regs wondering if I am fulfilling a needless task . Especially in the days of RCDs . I understand these can fail and all other options need covered , but I suppose I wish I understood the whole science of it all .
I suspect I am not alone, hence my question on other peoples option and experiences.

Here's one thread that's bubbling along nicely;

Bonding gas/water yellow and blue - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/bonding-gas-water-yellow-and-blue.136191/

 

[GBDamo]

Jobs are often quoted for by ambitious (read BSers) types with little understanding or respect for the requirements. This basically leaves the poor sap doing the job in the unenviable position of pushing back to requote, trying to rectify in their own time, or ignoring.

It is a real struggle to do things correctly all the time and sometimes a least bad option is all you're allowed to do.

The regs don't help as they are often poorly written and open to interpretation leaving the sparky little back up for the decisions he makes.

Also companies swap and change contractors with such regularity that there is often little understanding of installations, I know for one I rarely find nor will leave any drawings or explanations for circuits/issues I have worked out, other than the bare legal minimum.

Domestic is a real pain as the customers do not understand and cannot/will not pay for additional work. Commercial should know better.

 

[sevuk]

I'm really considering buying a stack of electrical safety first booklets to hand out customers, and see if advice from a charity would actually make an impact on the community. Maybe I'm away with the fairies.

 

[sparkdog]

I thought ELECSA did a leaflet on earthing & bonding for customers. Trouble is "Mrs Jones" might not have the level of technical understanding for even a very simple explanation.

 

[johnduffell]

wondering if I am fulfilling a needless task . Especially in the days of RCDs

You're not,rcds are great for faults downstream but an RCD won't cut off the power in a tn-c-s network if there's power flowing through the cne conductor lifting it above local earth (gas pipe). Bonding is the only thing that will maintain your equipotential zone then.

 

[Wonderwall]

I didn't mean to dislike your post, it's just my fat finger pressing the wrong emoji
Thanks for your input ,

 

[ipf]

Try explaining the difference between earthing and bonding and why they are interconnected.....many so called sparks, these days, haven't the faintest idea...let alone an innocently ignorant house dweller. They just think it's a potential rip off.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I've just had the same scenario with a CU change. No Main bonding to the water, plus the water tests as extraneous so it needs bonding, but how do you explain this additional cost in easy to understand words for the customer.

Well, I don't think there is a way to explain it so that the customer understands fully unless they have a degree of electrical knowledge which nearly all do not. I just say "this is an important cable and it can help limit the amount of electric shock you get if there is a fault".

Lee posted this up a few days ago which shows Main bonding will not be required (18th ed) in some cases so that will help a little . See 411.3.1.2 below

The impact of the 18th Edition (BS 7671:2018) – Chapters 41, 46, 53 and Regulation 542.2.2 - IET Electrical - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/66/impact-18th-cha-41-46-53/index.cfm

 

[johnduffell]

I didn't mean to dislike your post, it's just my fat finger pressing the wrong emoji
Thanks for your input ,

Didn't even notice! I do that all the time even when I'm trying to scroll on my phone, one time saw a post marked dumb, wondered who said that, then found it was me! Must have been the previous day by mistake

 

[davesparks]

Heating Engineers, Plumbers, Gas Fitters do have a responsibility to check for supplementary and equipotential bonding. Particularly where we alter pipe-work and services. A lot don't seem to bother though.

.

Very few of them actually understand bonding or have knowledge of the current regulations and what the requirements for bonding are.
There is a tendency amongst plumbers to demand that gas pipework be bonded at the meter regardless of whether it is needed or likely to make the situation more dangerous!

 

[JK-Electrical]

I do a lot of EICRs and discover issues regarding the bonding more often than not, particularly in older properties. It's either undersized or not present at all.

Before I proceed with any additions or alterations I always check the bonding. If there isn't any present, I include it within my quotation and explain this clearly to the customer. Should they object to the additional cost then I simply walk away. What else can you do under the circumstances?

I regularly come across bonding that has been disconnected, or even cut away altogether. I often wonder whether the people who commit this electrical crime are completely illiterate, or just plain stupid. Although the label on an earth clamp quite clearly states: SAFETY ELECTRICAL EARTH: DO NOT REMOVE, some people appear to interpret this as UNNECESSARY PIECE OF METAL THAT SPARK WASTED TIME AND MONEY INSTALLING: PLEASE DISCONNECT OR CUT AWAY.

 

[Midwest]

Perhaps someone's tested the installation, and decided it wasn't necessary.

 

[leep82]

I like to carry this around with me and let my customers have a read. Probably explains it better than i can to them.