No paperwork following new bathroom installation

[Hayley Roebuck]

Hi am new to forum. Just had 4.5day bathroom installation. Bathroom v good however was told on initial survey we wont need to touch your electrics - was keeping original Mira Sport shower and spotlights. Day 1 was then told "our sparky wont pass them, you need new spots, need bathroom rewire" this then led to "need new fuse board with rcd" ok. £480. Ok. We have a hotwater tank that was on a Diall timer (and worcester bosch CH only boiler) only moved in 1 month ago but worked perfectly timed at night on economy 7 tariff. Discovered to horror on thursday that timer been removed "cos its not safe" think timer fine, i still have it, but there was no trip for it on new fuseboard, something about incorrect current loop? So to stop a permanent tripping out theyve replaced timer with a fused manual on/offswitch? Wire from top of tank old and casing snapped of in places - not replaced. Ongoing argument about this but they say sparky says "its now safe". Other plumbing issues, leaking sink, stole my existing shower head replaced it with naff plastic one. No reasons given.My husband has paid them in full my question is what is safe/advisable re hot water tank and what paperwork should i have re installation of fuse board/new spots/partial bathroom rewire/extractor etc. I spoke to the sparky on Tuesday in person he was knowledgeable but they got him to complete job wen i was out on Wednesday. (I was told Thursday and had booked the day off )Bathroom company say "there is no paperwork" they came highly recommended but since found out they never issue paperwork even receipts! What should i have been given and how do i get it tested to make sure its now safe? Electrician said on Tuesday i ideally need a whole house rewire this would be "£3to5k"? It looks like its black/red cabling which is ok but been diy-ed. Family member who does commercial looked it over before the bathroom debacle started when on old fuse box said it was safe but didnt test sockets etc. Tearing hair out here, please help. They sending sparky back next week as gesture of goodwill but i dont know whether to use him/report to trading standards? I've no leverage cos husband paid thank you

 

[diditrain]

You should have got an Electrical Installation Certificate for the replacement fuseboard

 

[Midwest]

I'm not sure if I can follow the opening post, to make any comment. But agree any electrical installation work needs certificating, and possibly notification to local building control (in England & Wales).

 

[Andy78]

Ask the electrician in person for the certificate and building control notification. Might just be the bathroom company being awkward.

You should get invoices/receipts for the work though.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - as per @Andy78 .
Regarding E7 - I suspect he's bundled the heating into the new Consumer Unit, which removed the separately timed and metered capability. No reason this can't be repaired / restored, in my Internet view. Here's a link to a short explanation of how it works etc.
https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/economy-7/#step2

 

[littlespark]

Paid or not, you can still get a solicitor involved to argue that work was done that you did not agree to.
Keep any emails, invoices, receipts etc.
Bottom line.... they had no reason to touch the electrics, they shouldn't have.

 

[The Ghost]

Well if they said in the first place nothing is to be done electrically you would not need a sparky to pass them much less not pass them. What is he passing? Nothing as there is nothing to do.

 

[UNG]

Trying to understand why you would have economy 7 water heating and gas central heating unless there are other high load appliances making use of the off peak electric
That aside it sounds like there may be a number of issues with this electrical installation including the "spark" doing the alterations.
An "incorrect current loop" is this what the spark said or the OP's interpretation and not fitting a large enough CU to accommodate all the circuits start to make alarm bells ring

 

[Cid]

Bathroom fitters were correct in having the fuse board upgraded. However you get what you pay for. The electrical installation should have been tested before and after changing the consumer unit. Economy7 should ideally be on a separate board and the costs would have been a lot higher.
From a home owners perspective you should consider getting rid of the economy 7 and getting a combi boiler some time in the near future.

 

[solarsavings]

stole my existing shower head replaced it with naff plastic one.

I've to come across a shower head that's worth nicking. Perhaps it went in the trash having come from a mira sport.

 

[UNG]

Bathroom fitters were correct in having the fuse board upgraded. However you get what you pay for. The electrical installation should have been tested before and after changing the consumer unit. Economy7 should ideally be on a separate board and the costs would have been a lot higher.
From a home owners perspective you should consider getting rid of the economy 7 and getting a combi boiler some time in the near future.

Just trying to work out why someone living in Brighouse would use a London based contractor

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Just trying to work out why someone living in Brighouse would use a London based contractor

Don't understand this the fitters are based in Dewsbury the Electrician in Morley, Leeds i believe though not confirmed.

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

I've to come across a shower head that's worth nicking. Perhaps it went in the trash having come from a mira sport.

you should see what it has been replaced with! Mira sport has a special hosee i believe that works in conjunction with the unit. Perhaps this why its now spitting etc

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Well if they said in the first place nothing is to be done electrically you would not need a sparky to pass them much less not pass them. What is he passing? Nothing as there is nothing to do.

I know it is weird but they just lied at the beginning, decided to take the ceiling down that we had agreed would stay put - cos it will look better, which it does to be fair. Took it down uncovered myriad of wiring issues etc

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Ask the electrician in person for the certificate and building control notification. Might just be the bathroom company being awkward.

You should get invoices/receipts for the work though.

Is it a legal requirement to issue EIC /be Niceic registered to fit new consumer unit and do rewiring?

 

[Andy78]

Is it a legal requirement to issue EIC /be Niceic registered to fit new consumer unit and do rewiring?

The legal requirement in this case is for the consumer unit job to be notified to the local building control office. Ultimately that responsibility falls upon the householder.

An EIC should be issued with a consumer unit change but this is not in law.
There is no requirement to be registered with any scheme to do electrical work, although if your electrician is registered with a scheme (this is searchable online) then you can complain to them if you feel the work you have received is not up to scratch.

If you feel the work you have had done has been done without real cause to or done misleadingly then trading standards is where you want to be.

 

[UNG]

An EIC should be issued with a consumer unit change but this is not in law.
There is no requirement to be registered with any scheme to do electrical work, although if your electrician is registered with a scheme (this is searchable online) then you can complain to them if you feel the work you have received is not up to scratch.

Good luck with a complaint to a scheme, there all about collecting money and not spending it on investigating complaints

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

The legal requirement in this case is for the consumer unit job to be notified to the local building control office. Ultimately that responsibility falls upon the householder.

An EIC should be issued with a consumer unit change but this is not in law.
There is no requirement to be registered with any scheme to do electrical work, although if your electrician is registered with a scheme (this is searchable online) then you can complain to them if you feel the work you have received is not up to scratch.

If you feel the work you have had done has been done without real cause to or done misleadingly then trading standards is where you want to be.

Very useful thanks. Do you think i have a case to complain to them or trading standards that i dont have an EIC if when I agreed for their electrician to carry out the work i had just assumed he would be registered(big company £6k job in total)?! I had not realised it was a voluntary scheme! My fault for minimal research I know but i was put on the spot - "if we don't do this now we can't continue with bathroom work etc". I think consumer unit is ok, electrician knew his onions! Issue was more what the bathroom ppl were prepared to let him do for his money as he was subcontracted not paid directly. They've made a huge thing so far out of "he works for us not you" one more question! To get the building regs approval will i require an EIC? How can I get one/can I get one now? I am an ex legal assistant, cross with myself I've been so naive here! Assumed too much! Allowed myself to be bullied into a poor decision by 3 builders!

 

[Wilko]

The EIC is on a list of things the Buildings Inspector will ask to see to give a final sign off. If for some hardship reason an EIC is not available (Electrician won lottery and moved to Spain) they usually have some local work around.

 

[The Ghost]

This is a bit of a mess and recrimination of yourself will do little of use. So the way forward now is you must get BC certificate and you will probably have to get an EICR which is normally acceptable to building control in order to satisfy BC. I know that by rights an EIC should have been issued by the persons undertaking the work but it has not been and while you can take various actions over the matter is it worth it. After all you need to regularise the situation. If it comes to your selling the house this will be a problem if it is not done properly.
An EICR may cost around £150 to £250 dependant on how many circuits being checked. This will in one action regularise your situation, forestall any future problems and highlight any shortcomings in the work you have had done. Then you could always make trading standards aware of the situation after having settled the matter. In the future you will no doubt be more circumspect. Having said that it is so often the case where you start a job and problems pop up which have to be addressed so ce'est la vie.

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Amazingly they came round here this morning, fixed the leaky sink. Also brought our shower and hose back - shower now fab! They are arranging for their sparky to come out on Friday free of charge and fix a timer (that we need to supply) onto the hot water systen/sort ts wire out. Big surprising turnaround from them but very welcome!

 

[DPG]

Excellent news. Keep us posted. And it would be good to see photos of the new consumer unit they have fitted if you could post some on here.

 

[littlespark]

Do you think they've been reading this thread?

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Excellent news. Keep us posted. And it would be good to see photos of the new consumer unit they have fitted if you could post some on here.

Do u want photo of bathroom too?

 

[DPG]

Do u want photo of bathroom too?

Not especially. Maybe shower.

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Do you think they've been reading this thread?

Maybe, we had an effective email exchange about the cost of a new Mira sport and conversation about negative publicity.

 

[Markyd]

Amazingly they came round here this morning, fixed the leaky sink. Also brought our shower and hose back - shower now fab! They are arranging for their sparky to come out on Friday free of charge and fix a timer (that we need to supply) onto the hot water systen/sort ts wire out. Big surprising turnaround from them but very welcome!

shaming them on their facebook page usually gets a good result

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

shaming them on their facebook page usually gets a good result

No i talked to them to resolve it. Didnt want to rubbish them on fb cos the bathroom is superb and they are nice ppl generally. I suspect just out of depth as company only formed last March. Having said that they brought final receipt on Saturday and costs of hardware are hidden and no receipts from supplier. We picked items from supplier in 25% off sale, I've tried to ring them to see if they did indeed use that supplier, what paperwork should i have re bath etc actual cost of package to compare to their figure but ringing out. Its Easy Bathrooms. We only found out after this from Mother in law that she got no paperwork. Which is ridiculous as they had new spots, fan, moved a window etc and her husband is a sparky so you'd think he'd have raised it!! Also overheard bathroom guy on phone saying they wont do a job for less that 6k. They quouted 4500 for ours, it ended up at 5800. Deceptive? Probably. Good at bathrooms but there is some scam going on. Also they are vat registered but there is no vat on the receipt? Do they think we are as stupid as them? That shower they brought back had not been in a skip! Suspect he was going to ebay it, go for £60+

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

That is the shower they brought back

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Also on FB all reviews are 5* and loads of pictures so we would just look strange putting negative comments. The big difference here is the mice have played because the project manager didnt come on site til the last day. She was there every day at my mother in laws.

 

[45140]

Hayley, legally you have no right to see their receipts for materials unless you had an agreement on that basis. It is standard practice for Companies to make money on components/hardware on the basis of volume discounts and handling fees, after all someone has to order the parts and manage the process and this is an overhead cost to the business.

With regards to a VAT invoice, Article 13 of the VAT Regulations 1995 (SI 1995/2518) specifies that a VAT registered business is required to supply a proper VAT invoice when requested to do so by a VAT registered customer in order for the customer to reclaim the correct VAT amount. You are not a VAT Registered customer so therefore a VAT invoice of irrelevant as far as you are concerned. That said most invoicing systems include the VAT element simply to keep the software simple, otherwise there would be a need for two receipt systems.

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Hayley, legally you have no right to see their receipts for materials unless you had an agreement on that basis. It is standard practice for Companies to make money on components/hardware on the basis of volume discounts and handling fees, after all someone has to order the parts and manage the process and this is an overhead cost to the business.

With regards to a VAT invoice, Article 13 of the VAT Regulations 1995 (SI 1995/2518) specifies that a VAT registered business is required to supply a proper VAT invoice when requested to do so by a VAT registered customer in order for the customer to reclaim the correct VAT amount. You are not a VAT Registered customer so therefore a VAT invoice of irrelevant as far as you are concerned. That said most invoicing systems include the VAT element simply to keep the software simple, otherwise there would be a need for two receipt systems.

Thanks. I understand exactly what you are saying but I just have an odd feeling about this.the "receipt" is unlike anything Ive seen before and the figures dont mske sense. This is the fifth house we've done and never had an experience like this, albeit never done a bathroom but in the past had combi boilers fitted etc and always had receipts listing the price of the hardware eg boiler, sundries and labour and VAT. They are sending the electrician tomorrow afternoon re hot water wiring/timer. See what that brings, hopefully an end to the whole matter.

 

[Fitzy]

You’re more than entitled to ask for a receipt/invoice showing a breakdown of what YOU were charged, for labour, materials etc, whether you’re vat registered or not, you CAN ask for a vat receipt and once you request this, the company are legally bound to issue you with one (if they’re vat registered).

Been a while since I read the HMRC vat guidelines (been registered for over 20 years), but the usually stance was that for transactions under £100, there’s no need to issue an invoice with a breakdown of the vat, but if over £100, you MUST show the vat element on receipts/invoices.

 

[45140]

If the work was within the budget agreed, or was based upon a specific specification, unless the customer has requested a broken down estimate or they have a specific contractual arrangement that specifies this, then they have no legal basis upon which to demand to see the original invoices for materials. The Contractor is obliged to deliver the contracted works at the agreed price and provided they have done this then they have discharged their responsibilities under the Contract.

Costs associated with additional works instructed will normally fall under the original terms of the Contract unless agreed differently - for example a customer could require a broken down invoice that included the price materials were being charged for but that would still not extend to what the Contractor has paid as it is not relevant to the Contract. The Contract requires only a specified amount against an agreed work package.

Depending on the nature of the invoicing system used by a Contractor there may be an entry for materials or similar (simply because it is how the system is written rather then being a requirement) but there will never be a line by line breakdown of materials/components - just think of how big the invoice would be for a house require ??

As you rightly point out retail suppliers can issue a simply VAT Invoice for items under £250. Above £250 and either a full VAT receipt or a modified VAT are required to be issued.

As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement for any receipt to be issued to a customer, but custom & practice is different.

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

If the work was within the budget agreed, or was based upon a specific specification, unless the customer has requested a broken down estimate or they have a specific contractual arrangement that specifies this, then they have no legal basis upon which to demand to see the original invoices for materials. The Contractor is obliged to deliver the contracted works at the agreed price and provided they have done this then they have discharged their responsibilities under the Contract.

Costs associated with additional works instructed will normally fall under the original terms of the Contract unless agreed differently - for example a customer could require a broken down invoice that included the price materials were being charged for but that would still not extend to what the Contractor has paid as it is not relevant to the Contract. The Contract requires only a specified amount against an agreed work package.

Depending on the nature of the invoicing system used by a Contractor there may be an entry for materials or similar (simply because it is how the system is written rather then being a requirement) but there will never be a line by line breakdown of materials/components - just think of how big the invoice would be for a house require ??

As you rightly point out retail suppliers can issue a simply VAT Invoice for items under £250. Above £250 and either a full VAT receipt or a modified VAT are required to be issued.

As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement for any receipt to be issued to a customer, but custom & practice is different.

Thanks guys. Im so confused now! My issues now are three fold. We were told to make "economical choices" to keep the cost down, so we didnt choose tiles etc that we might have done because we wanted to stay in £4500 budget, however at the end we have been charged £5800 anyway, so why did we have to be economical with our choices?!
Secondly the invoice hides this stating £4700 + £1100 for additional work's. Only the additional works are itemised and they are steep.
I have no issue paying 6k for a bathroom, what i have issue with is being told on original quote we wont need to do your soil stack/toich your electrics etc so they could quote at £4500 only for them 2 days in to say we need to do all this work, right now or we will walk off the job.
No VAT!
Its dishonest and it felt bullying. I stayed out of my own home the whole of thursday as they were so bad. Theyve damaged carpet, a leather chair, had to repaint a freshly painted wall and so much dust never seen the like in 23 years of doing renovations.
Then the shower and hw tank to ice the cake.
Where would you go from here as ive had 3× different views on the vat. I dont want money back, i want them to be fairer with customers in future.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - Unfortunately it does often happen during renovation that things are discovered while the project is in progress. It's how this is handled that's remembered. I think you said your folks have not been together long. The important thing now is get the job completed to your satisfaction.

 

[45140]

Hayley,

Just to set the scene I spent about 15 years managing large Contracts for work up to £1bn so I am familiar with Contract Law. So to answer your questions and hopefully help you find a way forward here are some thoughts.

1 : What was your agreed price that you signed up to, and the scope of work that this price reflected?

2 : Prior to the extra work being identified, what (if anything) was agreed in respect of additional or emerging works ?

3 : Was there any agreement as to how additional work / materials, etc would be charged ?

4 : Was anything formally communicated to you about the price changes for the additional work ?

5 : Was the quotation issued with the phrase E&OE or does the "Errors & Omissions Excepted" or similar appear ?

6 : What level of site survey was undertaken ?

7 : In your opinion could a competent contractor have been aware of the potential risk or likelihood of additional work being necessary - agreed anything that might suggest the work would be more involved/complicated ?

8 : Read their Contract Ts & Cs and see what it says about additional works. There may be something that requires prior written authority before incurring cost which you could argue makes the extra costs non-recoverable but this is a thin straw to grasp and may not succeed

9 : What is the Contractual basis of the Contract (IEE or Standard Form, or ICE, etc. Should say in the Contract).

Once you have the answers to these questions then you can embark on the next stage which is to ask them to explain their price.

You should write to either the project manageress, or if not happy at that level, the Operations Manager, state that you are unhappy at quantum of the final cost and ask them for a detailed breakdown of the work they have undertaken, clearly setting out the original materials and labour costs you had authorised and setting out separately the additional labour and materials costs with a justification of how these figures have been arrived at.

As it appears you may well have instructed them to proceed with changes verbally, they will probably argue that it was undertaken on the basis of time and materials or emerging cost. Unless you can prove that either (1) the work was not necessary, or (2) they have undertaken work without your authority then you really do not have a good position in all of this.

You could if you so wish tell them that you had overheard an operative making the £6000 statement but that is hearsay and would not necessarily be useful in any action. They may wish to speak with you and it may well be that they can demonstrate that they have acted fairly.

I fully appreciate all the pressures put upon you but were you to make a claim in Law then this will be looked at dispassionately and will purely proceed on the basis of Contractual Law.

If having obtained a detailed breakdown of the work you feel that the works have been overpriced then you could contact another reputable Company and ask them to give you a second opinion, or alternatively you could speak to your insurer and use the legal protection cover to arrange for an assessor to give you an opinion.

Finally there is a legal obligation on a Contractor to minimise the costs of additional work, in other words they have to act in a professional manner and cannot charge you excessively. There should also be some sort of trade association that can provide details of an ombudsman or an Arbitrator who could be contacted to give a binding opinion.

You should go this route in the first instance before resorting to a legal remedy.

I offer only an opinion above, and how you proceed is a decision for you but you should not proceed solely on the basis of my post here. I would strongly advise you to speak with a Solicitor with experience in Commercial Law at the earliest time if after you have asked them to justify their costs you still remain unhappy. You should give him the information I have suggested you collect above.

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Hi. Thanks 4 detailed reply. They sent their electrician out tonight free of charge who restored and mended the hot water tank and issued certification and has filed part P so all is good. Took him 1hr. Why he couldnt do that Thurs/fri save all that aggro. All issues resolved now. Not pursuing them now as chance of refund non existant. Steep learning curve but at least the bathroom is quality. Thanks

 

[Markyd]

So you will moan about and rubbish their work on this forum.......but not facebook......sent their sparky out for free......after charging you £1300 more than the quote.....I wouldn't call that free

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

What is your point here? There were things wrong - missing/stolen shower, leaking sink, hotwater tank not restored, no paperwork Eic etc and what i felt was unfair charging system.
They have addressed all the issues. Apart from I do not have a VAT invoice.
I have a busy life and no energy to pursue something that i know i wont win. (I worked in legal 10 years.)
I was asking for advice re electricals. Got some very useful advice. Not moaning as far as I am aware, providing the facts as I saw them.
What would you want me to do now that would make you happy? You obviously feel I've done something wrong?

 

[geordie]

Did you sign anything to say your agreed to the extra work.
Look at the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013:

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Have only had initial quote and verbal contract thereafter.

 

[DefyG]

was told on initial survey we wont need to touch your electrics - was keeping original Mira Sport shower and spotlights.

Cant quite understand how it got from quote in your original post to involving electrical work? Unless Ive missed something in the thread.
As someone previously said, if no electrical work then nothing to 'pass'!

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

Because they wanted to make it into a bigger job. We can leave your existing spots and ceiling became our sparky says your spots are not safe so we need to change them, which then became we need to change your ceiling to accomodate the new spots. It looks lovely now but wasnt what we wanted and this only came about once theyd ripped out existing bathroom so then what can you do other than sack them off mid job. That then became you need a separate circuit for bathroom which led to you might as well get a fuse board done...etc

 

[DefyG]

Because they wanted to make it into a bigger job.

THEY wanted to make it a bigger job?
Sounds like you were talked around too easily!
If the electrics didn't need to be touched (as you originally stated) there was nothing to turn into a bigger job or require certification/Notification!...…….. Think you've been mugged!

 

[telectrix]

could it be that the old fuse board had no RCD??? therefore this had to be addressed when fitting new downlighters in special location???

 

[Hayley Roebuck]

could it be that the old fuse board had no RCD??? therefore this had to be addressed when fitting new downlighters in special location???

Yes and I'm not disputing that. I even raised that when they quoted (do i need a new fuseboard before you can do the bathroom) and was told categorically "we wont need to touch your electrics to do this job". Then once on job changed their minds and price increase of £1300. Its not the increase so much as they appear to have lied to secure the job?

 

[ferg]

Contractors can only advise on works with the information they have at the time.

It's not unusual to come across unexpected problems during a refurb the key word being unexpected.

In order to leave a safe and compliant job behind them additional works were required.

Again it's not unusual to decide that additional works must be completed for the job to progress. It is often the case that contractors will opt to walk away from a job if these required works cannot be completed as without them the job would not be safe or compliant.

 

[DPG]

You would have thought an experienced bathroom fitting company would have done a quick recce of the consumer unit before quoting for works being done. It should not have come as a surprise to them once things got started.

 

[ferg]

I think the issue was poor installation of the original downlights requiring partial rewire which led to the addition works.