NYY Buried Cable - Legit job?

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Discuss NYY Buried Cable - Legit job? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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OsramMyers

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Hi, Ive had a NAPIT qualified electrician out to install a new feed to the garage along with a new consumer unit in there. Its a short distance of around 6m and the cable he used was a 16mm NYY cable, it has been directly buried around 300mm depth with yellow warning tape, It goes under a few paving slabs but mostly its a graveled area.

Is this installation totally 100% in accordance with current building regulations/standards?

When he came to quote I asked for armored cable, he even specced SWA in the written quote but on the day I noticed it was this NYY cable. He said its all OK and he has passed the Part P certificate onto my local authority. When I questioned him after the job he said its easier to use and bend and things have changed over the years and this cable is fine to use in the installation. He said there is no price difference too.

What are people's thughts?
 
The NYY cable range includes NYY-J and NYY-O cables. These are widely used European power and control cables designed for fixed wiring installation with a voltage rating of 600/1000V. They can be safely deployed in most applications where mechanical stresses are not anticipated – indoors, outdoors, direct burial underground, in concrete, or submerged in water. When NYY cables are required to comply with the UK wiring regulations BS7671 for burial in the ground, they require installation in a conduit or duct to provide protection against mechanical damage. They are not suitable for installation in concrete which is shaken, vibrated or compressed.

It would look like it may not be suitable for the job.
 
NYY cable is not suitable for direct burial imo.

However I have seen it done numerous times with no ill effect years later. That said I wouldn’t be too happy if someone used it at my house, especially if I had specified swa.

I’ve just moved house and someone wired a water feature in SY! Some people have some funny ideas.
 
No, it should be armoured. Hi tuff is OK but shouldn't be laid underground, unless protected.
Armoured cable explains itself......
and the armour should be earthed, protecting the cable and whoever may be involved if any damage occurs.
 
mattg4321 said:
NYY cable is not suitable for direct burial imo.

However I have seen it done numerous times with no ill effect years later. That said I wouldn’t be too happy if someone used it at my house, especially if I had specified swa.

I’ve just moved house and someone wired a water feature in SY! Some people have some funny ideas.
Click to expand...
not just your opinion,
also mine,
also @ipf
also the manufacturers
also BS7671

Not got many votes to say otherwise either!!
 
DPG said:
It's even worse if he quoted for SWA in the first place. He really needs to come back and redo this.
Click to expand...
I've had an email confirmation now from him that it conforms with current regulations. I really can be arsed with it and whilst Id rather it was SWA he has confirmed it conforms so it seems like it would be a struggle.

I can and will sue him if there is a problem in the future, subject that he doesn't emigrate abroad or something!

As a side question do NAPIT or NICEIC assist you in any way if the original electrician is no longer registered or company dissolved etc/ not trading etc.
 
OsramMyers said:
I've had an email confirmation now from him that it conforms with current regulations. I really can be arsed with it and whilst Id rather it was SWA he has confirmed it conforms so it seems like it would be a struggle.

I can and will sue him if there is a problem in the future, subject that he doesn't emigrate abroad or something!

As a side question do NAPIT or NICEIC assist you in any way if the original electrician is no longer registered or company dissolved etc/ not trading etc.
Click to expand...

So he says it conforms. Well, it's up to you whether you believe him, or the opinion of several respected electricians on here.

But bear in mind he quoted for SWA, and you paid for SWA.

And even if it doesn't bother you, there is now a potentially dangerous cable in place.
 
Last edited:
You need to contact NAPIT now. In complaint situations they suggest you contact the contractor first, you have done this and have proof. NAPIT should now be able to act because that type of cable requires additional mechanical protection if buried according to the UK requirements for electrical installations, BS7671.
 
Your concern that it is not up to the correct standards is justified.

so the first question is

Is this installation totally 100% in accordance with current building regulations/standards?

Answer NO, it is not compliant with BS7671 (electrical installations) so therefore it is NOT compliant with building regulations.

When he came to quote I asked for armored cable, he even specced SWA in the written quote but on the day I noticed it was this NYY cable. He said its all OK and he has passed the Part P certificate onto my local authority.

NYY is not armoured, you have been given a product that in this application is inferior to the specification.

They may have passed the certificate onto the local authority for part P compliance but it is not compliant in the first place.

The contractor has made a mistake, feel free to email them a link to this post.
in my opinion, they should just bite the bullet, come back and replace the cable with SWA or if they prefer, install some ducting to run the cable in.

We all get things wrong every now and then. a mistake can be made, it is how we deal with them that sets the good tradesmen (and women) above everybody else.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.
 
I'd imagine that if he became aware that you were entertaining talking to NAPIT about the job, and given that he has hung himself by writing an email saying it complies, he'd prefer to get the opportunity to put things right.
Maybe just say that other electricians are questioning the compliance of using that cable with that installation method, and you would either like it replaced, or would like to approach NAPIT to be 100% sure.
It's only 6m not the channel tunnel so I'd have thought he'd bite the bullet and get digging.
 
OsramMyers said:
I've had an email confirmation now from him that it conforms with current regulations.
Click to expand...
It doesn't comply with bs7671:

522.8.10
Except where installed in a conduit or duct which provides equivalent protection against mechanical damage, a cable buried in the ground shall incorporate an earthed armour or metal sheath or both, suitable for use as a protective conductor. The location of buried cables shall be marked by cable covers or a suitable marker tape.
Buried conduits and ducts shall be suitably identified. Buried cables, conduits and ducts shall be at a sufficient depth to avoid being damaged by any reasonably foreseeable disturbance of the ground.
NOTE: BS EN 61386-24 is the standard for underground conduits.
 
Wilko said:
Another no vote from me, sorry. There has been a misunderstanding of the Regulations to think unarmored cable is suitable for direct burial.
Click to expand...
Also it is often not clear from the cable suppliers that this is the case, for example here it has no mentioned of the BS wiring regs:
www.superlecdirect.com

IEC60502-1 VDE 0276-603 NYY-J CABLE

NYY-J Cable is a non armoured mains cable that can be installed indoors where there is little chance of mechanical damage. It can be installed in open air, underground, in water and also in brickwork and concrete with the exception of shaken, vibrated or compressed concrete. IEC60502-1 VDE...
www.superlecdirect.com www.superlecdirect.com
"NYY-J Cable is a non armoured mains cable that can be installed indoors where there is little chance of mechanical damage. It can be installed in open air, underground, in water and also in brickwork and concrete with the exception of shaken, vibrated or compressed concrete."

Where has here they say the cable is suitable for direct burial in many cases, but point out the BS regs don't allow it without additional physical protection:

NYY-J & NYY-O Cable | Eland Cables

View Eland Cables' comprehensive range of NYY-J and NYY-O European fixed installation PVC cables. Technical support, fast quote and fast delivery.
www.elandcables.com www.elandcables.com
"These are widely used European power and control cables designed for fixed wiring installation with a voltage rating of 600/1000V. They can be safely deployed in most applications where mechanical stresses are not anticipated – indoors, outdoors, direct burial underground, in concrete, or submerged in water. When NYY cables are required to comply with the UK wiring regulations BS7671 for burial in the ground, they require installation in a conduit or duct to provide protection against mechanical damage. They are not suitable for installation in concrete which is shaken, vibrated or compressed."

The armour of SWA is not just for mechanical protection. In the event of a cable penetration accident with a spade, pick, mechanical digger, etc, it serves to short out the supply and cause it to disconnect on the over-current protection (supply fuse or MCB). Often such sub-mains do not have RCD protection as it is down-stream in the garage CU, etc, making that a very important point.
 
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It's a 'no' from me if there's no mechanical protection, unfortunately.

Think the OP was hoping for nothing but good news though if they've been given advice against what has been done and isn't going to do anything with it. Would have been better off not asking and sticking with ignorance is bliss! ?
 
Give him a chance to report the guy!

It was late last night that the 100% confirmation that this is wrong, and most people sleep overnight.

He may give the electrician one more chance to put right (all correspondences in writing!) before going to NAPIT.
 
littlespark said:
Give him a chance to report the guy!

It was late last night that the 100% confirmation that this is wrong, and most people sleep overnight.

He may give the electrician one more chance to put right (all correspondences in writing!) before going to NAPIT.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean, but also read post 8.
 
Yes. I read #8, and no reply from him since then, even though there was plenty input from the forum.

I’m hoping he is thinking about it, and will confront the spark ASAP.

I just don’t think we should assume he’s ignoring us just because he hasn’t replied from 7pm yesterday. You never know, he might have a life that doesn’t involve sitting on a forum all night.

All I’m saying is wait a few days. ?
 
I've been thinking of playing devils advocate and trying to come up with reasons why it may possibly be ok.... but I can't think of any.

It needs to have mechanical protection in order to comply with BS7671.

Chances are it may be fine under slabs and gravel, but that's not really the point. It's a bit like saying it'll probably be fine if you drive around without a seatbelt, probably will be, but you wouldn't do it for various reasons.

I feel uncomfortable judging about someone who I have never met, and only hearing one side of the story. We may be missing something. @OsramMyers I would ask for a copy of his complaints procedure which is mandatory to have for a registered electrician. I would then follow that procedure. As part of that process you could ask him to change the cable. If he again says it's ok to use you can then quote regulation 522.8.10 (from BS7671) which clearly shows it is not acceptable in its present state.
 
littlespark said:
Yes. I read #8, and no reply from him since then, even though there was plenty input from the forum.

I’m hoping he is thinking about it, and will confront the spark ASAP.

I just don’t think we should assume he’s ignoring us just because he hasn’t replied from 7pm yesterday. You never know, he might have a life that doesn’t involve sitting on a forum all night.

All I’m saying is wait a few days. ?
Click to expand...
Eh? ?
 
OsramMyers said:
Update -

Thank you for all the replies. I have dropped an email just a moment ago to NAPIT via their website and will await their response.
Click to expand...
When you hear back from them @OsramMyers , could you let us know their reply please? We like updates ?.
 
OsramMyers said:
Update:

Spoke to NAPIT on the phone and the installation is fine. Because its 300mm deep and its a tough cable its OK. Bit shocked really.

I've asked the electrician to replace it all with SWA anyway as outlined in the quote.
Click to expand...

Strange, NAPIT seem to be over cautious on certain other things.

Good that the sparky is going to come back to correct things though. Thanks for the update.
 
OsramMyers said:
Update:

Spoke to NAPIT on the phone and the installation is fine. Because its 300mm deep and its a tough cable its OK. Bit shocked really.

I've asked the electrician to replace it all with SWA anyway as outlined in the quote.
Click to expand...
Everything's OK then.....it's a 'tough cable'.

Basically, 'If being installed underground, a cable must be tough'. I like that statement from a UKAS scheme????
 
OsramMyers said:
Update:

Spoke to NAPIT on the phone and the installation is fine. Because its 300mm deep and its a tough cable its OK. Bit shocked really.

I've asked the electrician to replace it all with SWA anyway as outlined in the quote.
Click to expand...

I wonder if you would do me a great favour mate.
Can you get them to send you that they are happy with the installation in writing.
It's funny how people like to say things on the phone but when you ask for written confirmation then things go silent..
 
OP if you are still reading you should quote them the relevant section of their code breakers book.

I think that would then be ‘game set and match’ and I would expect them to swiftly apologise and say what a big mistake they have made and offer to put it right.
 
Afternoon all, Napit have just phoned me back, they have thoroughly looked into it, and listened to the recorded call from the OP. After ascertaining the cable type and installation methods from the customer they did infact tell them it was incorrect, however at approx 6 minutes into the call after being told basically the slabs etc all need to come back up to replace it, the OP began asking if it was unsafe or dangerous, which it obviously in real terms isn't, which the tech support told him, and it seems that final part of the conversation was all he then wanted to soak in as it were. This wasn't mentioned to us us full in the posts. They have provided him a follow up call to clarify and given a tech sheet showing that NYYJ is suitable for direct burial, but that's not compliant with BS:7671 unless in a duct as we know.

So overall, seems we didn't get the full picture initially, the installer now knows it's wrong and is rectifying, and Napit have followed it up with the customer too which is good.

Well handled Napit, you shall have another £474 from me next year and a handful of notification fees ?
 
suffolkspark said:
Afternoon all, Napit have just phoned me back, they have thoroughly looked into it, and listened to the recorded call from the OP. After ascertaining the cable type and installation methods from the customer they did infact tell them it was incorrect, however at approx 6 minutes into the call after being told basically the slabs etc all need to come back up to replace it, the OP began asking if it was unsafe or dangerous, which it obviously in real terms isn't, which the tech support told him, and it seems that final part of the conversation was all he then wanted to soak in as it were. This wasn't mentioned to us us full in the posts. They have provided him a follow up call to clarify and given a tech sheet showing that NYYJ is suitable for direct burial, but that's not compliant with BS:7671 unless in a duct as we know.

So overall, seems we didn't get the full picture initially, the installer now knows it's wrong and is rectifying, and Napit have followed it up with the customer too which is good.

Well handled Napit, you shall have another £474 from me next year and a handful of notification fees ?
Click to expand...

Great stuff, thanks for the update. Always good to get the full story. Good that NAPIT looked into it.
 
ToonSparky said:
Would NYYJ have the CCC of an armoured cable or a PVC/PVC cable?

Ref A for cable type or ref F?
Click to expand...
It would basically have the same rating as SWA, though probably reaching final temp a little faster as no armour to provide thermal inertia.

This NYY-J case is odd because it really comes down to the BS spec saying (these days) you must have earthed armour (or separate duct) if buried so it is not compliant, and the cable (and EU usage) saying it is OK if not likely to be damaged by digging, etc.
 
ANOTHER UPDATE -

Did anyone get on the phone to NAPIT about this and report this thread?

The person I spoke to on the phone called me back yesterday afternoon out of the blue and said he reviewed our conversation on Tuesday with a colleague as it was recorded and wanted to go through what we said.

Basically from saying on Tuesday the depth makes it OK yesterday he just said plain and simple it is NOT compliant and this is why -

"The NYY cable range includes NYY-J and NYY-O cables. These are widely used European power and control cables designed for fixed wiring installation with a voltage rating of 600/1000V. They can be safely deployed in most applications where mechanical stresses are not anticipated – indoors, outdoors, direct burial underground, in concrete, or submerged in water. When NYY cables are required to comply with the UK wiring regulations BS7671 for burial in the ground, they require installation in a conduit or duct to provide protection against mechanical damage. They are not suitable for installation in concrete which is shaken, vibrated or compressed.
NYY-J & NYY-O Cable | Eland Cables - https://www.elandcables.com/cables/nyy-j-pvc-pvc-0-6-1kv-power-cable"

When my NAPIT electrician comes to replace the SWA I will be confronting him about this. I will present this email from NAPIT to the electrician. At the moment I have to assume my electrician is misunderstanding the regulations. If I get any sense that he has put this NYY cable in because he was lazy (I know its more hassle to bend and gland SWA's) and has knowingly signed off this installation as safe and conforming with regualtions I will be putting in a formal complaint to NAPIT.
 
suffolkspark said:
Afternoon all, Napit have just phoned me back, they have thoroughly looked into it, and listened to the recorded call from the OP. After ascertaining the cable type and installation methods from the customer they did infact tell them it was incorrect, however at approx 6 minutes into the call after being told basically the slabs etc all need to come back up to replace it, the OP began asking if it was unsafe or dangerous, which it obviously in real terms isn't, which the tech support told him, and it seems that final part of the conversation was all he then wanted to soak in as it were. This wasn't mentioned to us us full in the posts. They have provided him a follow up call to clarify and given a tech sheet showing that NYYJ is suitable for direct burial, but that's not compliant with BS:7671 unless in a duct as we know.

So overall, seems we didn't get the full picture initially, the installer now knows it's wrong and is rectifying, and Napit have followed it up with the customer too which is good.

Well handled Napit, you shall have another £474 from me next year and a handful of notification fees ?
Click to expand...


That is not true.

Then guy on the phone had not heard of an NYY cable I ended up explaining it was basically unarmoured. He then asked how deep it was and what was covering it, 300mm deep 5m distance, mainly gravel, a bit of paving. He said it was fine as its a spade depth. He said my issue was a contractual one.
 
OsramMyers said:
ANOTHER UPDATE -

Did anyone get on the phone to NAPIT about this and report this thread?

The person I spoke to on the phone called me back yesterday afternoon out of the blue and said he reviewed our conversation on Tuesday with a colleague as it was recorded and wanted to go through what we said.

Basically from saying on Tuesday the depth makes it OK yesterday he just said plain and simple it is NOT compliant and this is why -

"The NYY cable range includes NYY-J and NYY-O cables. These are widely used European power and control cables designed for fixed wiring installation with a voltage rating of 600/1000V. They can be safely deployed in most applications where mechanical stresses are not anticipated – indoors, outdoors, direct burial underground, in concrete, or submerged in water. When NYY cables are required to comply with the UK wiring regulations BS7671 for burial in the ground, they require installation in a conduit or duct to provide protection against mechanical damage. They are not suitable for installation in concrete which is shaken, vibrated or compressed.
NYY-J & NYY-O Cable | Eland Cables - https://www.elandcables.com/cables/nyy-j-pvc-pvc-0-6-1kv-power-cable"

When my NAPIT electrician comes to replace the SWA I will be confronting him about this. I will present this email from NAPIT to the electrician. At the moment I have to assume my electrician is misunderstanding the regulations. If I get any sense that he has put this NYY cable in because he was lazy (I know its more hassle to bend and gland SWA's) and has knowingly signed off this installation as safe and conforming with regualtions I will be putting in a formal complaint to NAPIT.
Click to expand...
Winner, winner.
 
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