Overcharged RCD Work?

[HoveSeagull]

We have just had our small en-suite refurbished by a bathroom specialist. Part of the work was to replace a pendant light with 4 spotlights in a 1997 house. At the final account we have been presented with 4 variation account claims adding to around £1000 of which most are contestable. One of the claims may be partly valid but doesn’t feel right. An additional £280 is being claimed that urgent electrical work was required so as not to leave our house unsafe, without telling us what the work entailed or providing invoices. After several requests we were sent the electrical test certificate which shows that there was no RCD protection for the bathroom lights so by installing the 4 spotlights they also had to move a circuit in the fuseboard without RCD protection to an adjoining spare way that did have RCD protection. All the electrical work took 7 hours (one day) which included fitting the 4 spotlights, replacing an extractor fan and running a spur and socket out to the new shower pump which was part of the quote.
So the question is, being a bathroom specialist should they have included the RCD work in their quote or at least made us aware either before or during the project? Also is it really a £280 task? When we queried saying it could only have taken 1 hour max, the response was, it’s not the time taken but the value of the work. Btw when we queried whether we should be liable to pay this cost, we were advised that they would reduce our account by £100 but remove the “safety feature because we assess at zero value. As we are being threatened with legal action, we would be grateful for some comfort as to whether this £280 is fair if not what is a reasonable cost

 

[telectrix]

to move a circuit from 1 side of a CU to a RCD protected side is at most 30 minutes work. might need a new MCB at a cost of a fiver perhaps. this should have been included in the original quote.

 

[Deleted account]

The contractors are correct on the protection needed. The price they have charged to achieve this is acceptable. (See post 5)

However the quoting system is a legal matter and not an electrical one. Should they have informed you prior to works proceeding.
If they knew. Yes!
if they didn’t know then they couldn’t have.
maybe a disclaimer in quote saying if further electrical works are required then the final invoice may change.
But this is a legal contract question. I cannot answer.

EDIT - Darkwood - I have amended this post in reflection of a further comment by Paignton pete, I have not removed it as I believe it contains other valuable information for the OP to reflect on.

 

[suffolkspark]

Should have been in the quote. Or at least told you about it

 

[Deleted account]

I’d like to amend my original post above.

sorry I mis read.

£280 is rediculous. i would not have charged anything extra for that.

note to Mods: happy for post 3 to be removed. Oops!

 

[telectrix]

the first thing you do when works require RCD protection is to see if it's ther. similar to checking earthing and bonding. before finalising quote. the contractors have cocked up. they should stand the cost.

 

[westward10]

This should have been identified prior to the works being carried out and like @Paignton pete the moving of the circuit would have been done at no additional cost, five to ten minutes work. It is not clear what the £280 of additional works consist of or whether this was moving the circuit.

 

[mattg4321]

Am I reading OP correctly? Have they threatened to move the circuit back to the non RCD protected way?

If so then that is as much as you need to know about their level of customer service.

 

[HoveSeagull]

Many thanks for all your quick responses. I feel very re-assured. It is a shame because the quality of the work by his sub-contractors who did the work was very good. But the final account just appears to be made up to get more money out the job!

 

[HoveSeagull]

Am I reading OP correctly? Have they threatened to move the circuit back to the non RCD protected way?

If so then that is as much as you need to know about their level of customer service.

That is correct and my thoughts exactly. Project finished last Friday and was threatening legal action within 2 days!

 

[Dustydazzler]

When I did loads of bathrooms for a local contractor we rarely touched the consumer unit unless we had to. The method that they insisted upon was putting new lighting/new fan on a 13a rcd spur with a 3a fuse and an rcd spur for towel rails/ pumps etc.
I can'r remember exactly what they charged but it was something like £150 per rcd spur required. These were never ever quoted for as some houses already had rcds. The ones that didn't it was added as an extra on the final invoice. The average bill for the bathroom electrics often came to about a grand.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Pay the original invoice value and state in writing that you are questioning the additional variations cost to whit you are obtaining professional advice, its important not to say you refuse to pay the variation costs, just questioning them, then leave the ball in their court to take you to court if they so wish, in good faith you could pay them an extra £5.00 to cover the cost of moving the cables from one side of the CU to the other, but in any case let them take you to an independent arbitrator for the extra costs not instructed by you.

 

[westward10]

That is correct and my thoughts exactly. Project finished last Friday and was threatening legal action within 2 days!

I misread that part, that is the most bizarre threat considering the work involved initially time wise wasn't worth mentioning.

 

[Darkwood]

I would from here in do all correspondence in Email form so you have a papertrail of everything that is said or claimed from both parties here.
I would request a full breakdown of the costs and reasoning why at the quotation stage these extras were not identified and included.

The extras they are claiming here in my opinion should have been identified at the quotation stage, also there were alternatives too like having local rcd protection for the altered circuits as oppose to swapping the circuit across in the board (which I agree would have taken less than 30mins), even if by error on their part that this was missed I personally would have corrected it given the simple solution for no extra cost at all.

I would to be honest here pay the original agreed amount if the work is done as described and to your satisfaction and withhold any extra cost they claim, the fact they did not discuss these 'extras' during work and/or get your agreed consent to said 'additional' works means these were added as hidden costs at the billing stage.

I would pay the original invoice with a supportive email that you are taking legal advice on the matter and express to them all correspondence must be made via email, contest that the extra work should have been assessed at quotation stage and even in the light of error or unforeseen circumstances that any extra work should not have been undertaken if a cost was to be implicated without your knowledge or agreement, then suggest you are happy to come to an agreement where you will pay for an extra hours labour needed to resolve the oversight which is in your opinion an oversight that should have been identified at the quotation stage.

Note - I am not a lawyer here and this is simply advice based on my own experiences and knowledge of the industry, if they are making additions or alteration to any circuit then that addition or part of the circuit should comply to current regulations, given rcd protection was required here for said works then this should have been identified at quotation stage and I believe it is an oversight on their part and in no way should you be financially liable for this unless it was raised and agreed during the works.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Playing Devils Advocate for a moment, the contractor could have reasonably assumed that the existing installation conformed to the regulations and therefore the existing bathroom lighting was RCD protected, this immediately becomes void if the electrician visited the site prior to quoting for the works where they should have noted that the CU only had part protection, notwithstanding the above they are, under any type of contract obliged to agree extra costs outside the scope of the original quotation before carrying out extra works.

 

[UNG]

So it's not clear did you get a fixed price quote or an estimate for the works and what was in the small print about any unforeseen or additional works and what did you agree to
With regard to any legal action I would expect the contractor would have to provide an itemised invoice to the court for the work to justify his case so why not before it goes legal
While the cost of the additional work is contentious as @darkwood has said have you paid any part of the invoiced cost relating to the original quote if you do I would suggest you state that the payment is made "Without Predjudice" so as not to affect any possible legal case as any payment might be deemed as accepting liability for the full cost. Had this in the past when working for solicitors when try to be smart by not paying the full value of the work carried out, unfortunately for them I know how to get paid without going legal

 

[Strima]

Their original quote should have included any electrical work required, this should have been identified when a survey was carried out and any additional works required should have been discussed and agreed with you before taking place.

To move the lighting circuit, add additional lighting points, replacing the fan and additional outlet for the shower pump I would have been not far off that price depending on material costs etc.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Read the original post again, they are claiming £1000.00 of extra's.

 

[Strima]

Read the original post again, they are claiming £1000.00 of extra's.

I read that as the total amount was £1000's but the electrical was £280 of that.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I read it as the £280.00 was for moving the cables to the other side of the CU to make the lighting RCU protected.

 

[telectrix]

I read it as the £280.00 was for moving the cables to the other side of the CU to make the lighting RCU protected.

so did I.

 

[Darkwood]

I think we now need some feedback from the OP as many including myself have had to make a few assumptions, having limited info as we do and only one side of the story the reality could be very different or exactly as the OP described, either way, £280 to effectively shift a wire in a consumer unit is crazy unless we are lacking vital info here to give a fair opinion.

 

[telectrix]

I think we now need some feedback from the OP as many including myself have had to make a few assumptions, having limited info as we do and only one side of the story the reality could be very different or exactly as the OP described, either way, £280 to effectively shift a wire in a consumer unit is crazy unless we are lacking vital info here to give a fair opinion.

in reality it's 3 wires, so that's £93. 33 per wire at 2 minutes each equates to £2800 /hour. Pimlico Plumbers, yous too cheap.

 

[HoveSeagull]

Thanks to all whi have responded. Just to provide a bit more background, the work was a quote of £5,579.00 & VAT not an estimate. We paid 60% of the value with order in December for materials (I know deep breath) and the remaining 40% for the contract works on complete last weekend (work completed last Friday.) The final account was presented with 4 variation claims.
Changes to tile choice - £85.00 & VAT agreed & paid
Additional woodwork decorating to bedroom - £495.00 (a figure was quoted of £299.00 that was agreed, but is now claimed he forgot to add materials. We have paid £299.00 but refute the additional £196.00 on the basis a quote is a quote and surely not £196.00 materials for a 3.5m x 3.5m bedroom skirtings, architraves, window board & 4 doors, one side only.
Changes to sanitary ware of £290.00 which is ridiculous as we were careful to choose lower cost items than he had allowed from the same company. Also added delivery costs. We consider should be a saving if anything.
Then the £280.00 for the RCD work.
We have basically paid in full the agreed contract works and agreed variations. We had made an additional gesture offer of around £300.00 to bring to a conclusion, but when the threats, harassing language and insults continued as well as the 3rd of 4th threat of legal action in a week, we subsequently withdrew our additional offer and would like him to now take legal action.
I was confident on contesting all the claim other than then RCD claim. However, the responses I have received from all are very re-assuring and I believe makes our case even stronger. Thanks to all who have responded, what a great forum!

 

[Darkwood]

in reality it's 3 wires, so that's £93. 33 per wire at 2 minutes each equates to £2800 /hour. Pimlico Plumbers, yous too cheap.

Sarcastic bugger ?

 

[telectrix]

Sarcastic bugger ?

what else do you expect from a fully fledged Anfield Kop End hooligan.

 

[Deleted account]

I hate it when you go against another company on a quote. You quote more so loose the job. The other company then put the extras on and end up charging more than I quoted for.

the difference between them and me is I would have honoured original quote.

it’s a Quote not an estimate.

I Believe from what you have said this company clearly had no intension of charging you what they originally quoted. They always knew how much they where going to charge, but quoted less to get the hook in.

and there was no way you could have known that.

 

[Dustydazzler]

A £6000 bathroom ref-fit and they had the cheek to try to bill you £280 for an rcd

 

[westward10]

They didn't fit an rcd they juggled a circuit about.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Thats even more cheeky then...

 

[HoveSeagull]

I have also attached the extracted relevant sections from the test certificate and the response from the electrician.
"We had to re locate the circuit we worked on to the RCD side of the consumer unit due to the current consumer unit not compliant with current regulations so we had to reconfigure the layout" In fairness to the electrican, he may not know the main contractor is claiming £280.00 for the RCD element work. The main contractor states he is not obliged to show us his internal invoices. The court may determine otherwise.

 

[westward10]

Certificate seems fine. Be interesting to know how long it took the electrician to move said circuit.

 

[suffolkspark]

Theres a couple of minor iffy things on the cert, the extended circuit is said to be ref method B, possible but unlikely. Also the zs at db is recorded as 0.87ohm, but it seems a duplicated figure from the end of circuit zs test, also rcd type is recorded as RCD, should likely say AC

 

[Mike Johnson]

One solicitors letter to the contractor from you should solve it, but don't forget to send them a bill for the solicitors fees.

Do let us know what happens.

 

[Dartlec]

Theres a couple of minor iffy things on the cert, the extended circuit is said to be ref method B, possible but unlikely. Also the zs at db is recorded as 0.87ohm, but it seems a duplicated figure from the end of circuit zs test, also rcd type is recorded as RCD, should likely say AC

Insulation resistance Live-Live should really be LIM rather than N/A too I assume, though only a minor quibble

It would be interesting to know if the electrician added a new MCB on the RCD side of the consumer unit, which might have necessitated a new busbar or at the very least some re-jigging of existing breakers. Also whether he also checked every light on the existing circuit in addition to the new ones being installed(Upstairs lighting I would guess?) to ensure there were likely to be no tripping issues.

That could in theory take a couple of hours if done in parallel with the rest of the work, though the cost still seems excessive - and should have been notified in advance either when giving the estimate, or before completing the work.

But if the circuit was just moved across and a quick test done at the bathroom lighting end, then it would certainly be unsupportable (imo).

Threatening legal action within 2 days screams money making though - and I suspect the electrician was not seeing all of that claimed extra cost.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The certificate says "relocation of lighting circuit at the consumer unit so that the circuit extended from is protected by RCD" no mention of anything other than relocation of a lighting circuit in the CU and the spotlights hacked into an existing circuit, so no additional MCB or RCD, just re-locating of the circuit.