PAT - Selling Used Goods - Authoritative Body?

[machineage]

Hi all!

I am looking to sell some used electrical items (eBay), and am considering (unlike the vast majority of eBay business sellers) testing them for electrical safety prior to sale. The items will be a mix of class 1, 2 and 3. Having carried out some preliminary research, I have rapidly found this to be an absolute minefield, with opinions and disagreements aplenty. So, at the risk of opening a can of worms here, is there an official / governing body in the UK overseeing portable appliance testing?
I want to know the official requirements with regards to testing / equipment / records et al.

BTW, I have a history of interest and involvement in electrical / electronics from a very young age (55 now). I repair valve radios & all manner of electrical / electronic items for my personal use / pleasure. I think it’s fair to say I have a basic understanding above those with no electrical knowledge whatsoever, who attend the most rudimentary of courses to enable them to press a button on a machine.

Thanks!

 

[Rockingit]

Personally, I wouldn't. Obviously test them yourself as no-one wants to be a jerk and have the potential for blood on their hands, but I'd be putting a massive disclaimer that it's on the part of the buyer to satisfy themselves that they're safe for use otherwise you open a Pandora's Box of potential liabilities.

 

[DPG]

I'd tend to agree with RockingIt. If you put your name to them being tested and safe then it puts you in a more responsible position and open to possible future action.

Of course it doesn't stop you doing some basic tests to make sure nothing dangerous is sold. But unless you are fully versed in ISITEE (which is what 'PAT' is actually called these days) then I wouldn't take that route.

Nothing to stop you getting the latest (5th edition) of the ISITEE code of practice either.

Good to see you take an interest in safety. As you say, a lot wouldn't even consider it.

 

[LukeD]

Personally, I wouldn't. Obviously test them yourself as no-one wants to be a jerk and have the potential for blood on their hands, but I'd be putting a massive disclaimer that it's on the part of the buyer to satisfy themselves that they're safe for use otherwise you open a Pandora's Box of potential liabilities.

THis..Eben selling a normal toaster could cause a complaint or legal action if sold as"perfect" and then something happens ! Litigation is one funky world of madness

 

[machineage]

Thank you for the replies.

Seems the consensus here is the opposite of when I have asked the same question, but in a retail orientated forum. All agreed any used goods should be PAT certified, and records kept by the seller. The mention of a disclaimer came up, and it was agreed that the onus for any harm caused by electrical goods sold lies solely with the seller, and that any disclaimer is worth nothing legally, and in no way whatsoever would it protect or absolve the seller of responsibility. So I was surprised to see the opposite view here on an electricians forum.
Guess it proves again the widely differing views, and reinforces why I wanted to find the official body(s) for these questions in order to be fully aware of where I stand and what I should do.

 

[Rockingit]

Thank you for the replies.

Seems the consensus here is the opposite of when I have asked the same question, but in a retail orientated forum. All agreed any used goods should be PAT certified, and records kept by the seller. The mention of a disclaimer came up, and it was agreed that the onus for any harm caused by electrical goods sold lies solely with the seller, and that any disclaimer is worth nothing legally, and in no way whatsoever would it protect or absolve the seller of responsibility. So I was surprised to see the opposite view here on an electricians forum.
Guess it proves again the widely differing views, and reinforces why I wanted to find the official body(s) for these questions in order to be fully aware of where I stand and what I should do.

Fairly sure you won't find one, simply because you're not a manufacturer.

Why is it that you are so keen to be able to offer this?

 

[DPG]

Are you a trading as a proper registered business?

 

[machineage]

Yes, registered as a sole trader with HMRC.

 

[DPG]

Yes, registered as a sole trader with HMRC.

That changes my view slightly. I thought you were just selling 2nd hand items on ebay.

My view would be that items should be tested for safety in this case. I would suggest getting hold of the latest ISITEE code of practice (5th edition) and consider taking the ISITEE course.

Note, ISITEE is the correct term for 'PAT testing'. The term PAT causes confusion, since it doesn't only involve portable items, and most of the actual work is inspecting rather than testing.

Most testing is pretty easy, but some people get confused over leakage and alternative leakage testing. And also by the fact test machines internally connect live and neutral when performing tests. If you're not aware of this then it can mean some people end up performing tests which are actually doing nothing, but will still result in a 'pass'.

I can't see you having much trouble to be honest, given your background. Just make sure you know what tests need doing for each item, the reasons they need doing, and what results you should expect.

I've seen too many people just hitting that test button and waiting for the pass light!

 

[machineage]

Fairly sure you won't find one, simply because you're not a manufacturer.

Why is it that you are so keen to be able to offer this?

Because when I raised the question in retail forums, it was unanimously agreed that I must have all mains powered electrical goods PAT certified prior to offering them for sale. Just to add - another reason for my questioning this, I occasionally buy goods from retailers like Cash Converters. I am surprised to see many mains powered goods they sell have no PAT certification. Just last week I bought an integrated amp. It had no PAT label, and the guy just dug out a IEC lead from a box to go with it, again not tested. I've visited a number of these shops, and checked their electrical goods for PAT labels, and a good proportion of items had no PAT label.

 

[DPG]

Because when I raised the question in retail forums, it was unanimously agreed that I must have all mains powered electrical goods PAT certified prior to offering them for sale. Just to add - another reason for my questioning this, I occasionally buy goods from retailers like Cash Converters. I am surprised to see many mains powered goods they sell have no PAT certification. Just last week I bought an integrated amp. It had no PAT label, and the guy just dug out a IEC lead from a box to go with it, again not tested. I've visited a number of these shops, and checked their electrical goods for PAT labels, and a good proportion of items had no PAT label.

I've noticed the same in cash converters, and to be honest they ought to test the stuff they sell. No doubt there will be some small print somewhere saying it's down to the buyer to ensure they are tested. Not good though I agree.

 

[Mike Johnson]

As I see it the liability is with the seller at the point of sale and pass's too the buyer on the second power up of the appliance, if the appliance worked on the first power up then it is open to interpretation of what has happened to the appliance in between first and second power up, nice legal point of argument I feel.

 

[LukeD]

A good start would be to ask on a car forum about setting up as a car dealer.... ! See the responses about how it turns into a minefield super quick with so many consumer rights and laws etc

 

[machineage]

I just wanted to follow up on this re: retailers of used electrical goods. I've now visited three Cash Converters in my area, and none of the electrical goods I could access had been tested and labelled by them. The only labels I found were expired labels, likely from a previous owner. How do they get away with this? They must sell tens / hundreds of thousands of electrical items a year?

 

[DPG]

I just wanted to follow up on this re: retailers of used electrical goods. I've now visited three Cash Converters in my area, and none of the electrical goods I could access had been tested and labelled by them. The only labels I found were expired labels, likely from a previous owner. How do they get away with this? They must sell tens / hundreds of thousands of electrical items a year?

It's a dair point. No doubt is some small print / terms and conditions on the receipt that say goods are sold as seen and should be tested for safety.

 

[machineage]

@DPG There's no mention any anything like that on the receipt for an item I bought from them recently. That particular item required an IEC lead. The store assistant pulled up a large box of leads, and just randomly picked one out. None of the plugs I could see had labels.
The only thing I can find on their website in the Ts & Cs states 'All goods, where applicable, will be PAT tested.'

 

[R-fur]

A PAT test is like a MOT it is only correct at the time of testing, a brake light could fail as you drive out the garage but you still have a valid MOT
I think the OP is correct to test goods before sale but should say there is no guarantee.