Qs from a newbie

[lynneinjapan]

Hiya, I'm new to the forum and am thinking of retraining as a domestic electrician/installer (am I right in thinking that strictly speaking you can't call yourself an electrician unless you're qualified to do commercial as well?), and would like to know what folks here think of the idea, given my circumstances.

Bit of background: I'm 41, female, married with 2 young kids (5 and 2 tomorrow), live in Birmingham and have recently taken redundancy from my teaching job. I have a degree in electronic engineering, though all that means is that I'm good at exams - I've forgotten pretty much all of the content and, anyway, my knowledge of domestic electrics is practically non-existent.

Together with my husband I'm a landlord - portfolio grown organically up to now (he moved in with me, his parents moved to a retirement flat, we moved house, and we rented out each vacated house in turn) but we're hoping to grow further over the next few years, including doing some refurb work, so I thought that being able to do my own rewires, PIRs and PAT testing would be useful, and I could also generate a bit of income from doing other domestic electrical work. I've been assured that there's lots of demand for female sparks and I'll never be short of work, and told that the going rate is £60+ per hour (which I'm sure is very optimistic)... but that was by the people offering the training, who of course have a vested interest in getting me to sign up.

I've been looking at what courses are around for mature entrants from outside the trade, and the RF Training 7-week one looks quite good, albeit pricey at £5K + VAT (that does include all the relevant books, exam fees & kit, including a Megger MFT1710). I'm pretty sure I wouldn't qualify for any kind of retraining grants or discounts, so would have to pay full whack. The course includes C&G 2382, Part P, 2392 and Logic Cert. Domestic Periodic Inspection & Testing Award, which I'm told will mean I can do landlords' electrical safety certificates - though I gather from my research on this site that there's no such thing, so I guess he meant PIRs! I also asked about PAT testing and he said they'd include that at no extra charge, although it's not listed as part of the course content.

I understand that employers normally ask for 2391, but given my circumstances and aims, would there be any need for me to do it? They do offer it as an optional extra.

I appreciate that the course doesn't include any on-site experience - there's a lot of practical work but it's all in purpose-built training bays - so I'd hope to spend a bit of time alongside a practising spark before going it completely alone (although the course adviser assured me that I'd be fully competent and confident after just the 7-week course).

Also local to me is the OCLI Domestic Installer course: includes 2382, Part P, 2392-10 and 2377 plus solar PV. So it sounds much the same except that it would enable me to do solar PV (which I can't see myself making much use of, given the imminent drop in FIT payments) but not PIRs. I haven't yet enquired as to course fees or timescales for that one, but I imagine they'll be similar.

What would the additional ongoing / one-off costs be? I'm aware of:
Trade body membership (NICEIC / NAPIT / ELECSA etc.) - £400ish pa
Public liability insurance - about £100pa
Typical additional costs to maintain qualifications???

I'd have £240pw to pay for childcare on top of the course fees, so wouldn't want to spend any longer than necessary with the course not paying for itself! Once qualified, I'd also prefer not to work more than about 3 days a week on a regular basis.

Sorry about the length of this post - if you're still with me then thanks for sticking with it!

What do you reckon - good idea or waste of time & money? RF package better than OCLI one? Any better ideas?

 

[Octopus]

£60 per hour, who told you that?????????

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but I reckon maybe £20 per hour for Brum. 2011 hasn't been good and 2012 - who knows

There's loads of threads about this on the site so please brouse away - good luck.

 

[Markshaw169]

Just for info Think the domestic installers package from Olci is about £3500. Just signed up with them for the 2357. They were trying to throw goodies in for Xmas as well!!

 

[trev]

You would probably get a better deal taking these courses at your local college, true you won't get the test gear at the end of it but with the money you would save you could get some.
£60 ph is way way optimistic and I question that you would be fully competent and confident after 7 weeks but if it's what you want to do go for it

 

[Engineer54]

(the course adviser assured me that I'd be fully competent and confident after just the 7-week course).

You assumed correctly Lynn, there is no-way on this earth that you will be anything close to being a Competent electrician in just 7 weeks!! (Mind, that is a little better than the usual 5 weeks!! lol!!!) This is the typical sales talk they use, that brings in the saps, and to relieve them of there cash... Same goes, ...as far as i can see, for the 60 quid and hour hype...

 

[pjcomp]

After the course you'd probably be technically competent, but when you're house bashing (which it looks like will be your main direction of work) there's only about a third of the work is actual electrics. What they won't tell you on the course is how to route cables from where they are to where the customer wants them, the many different sorts of block and brick you'll find behind the plaster (and how to cope with them), and all the other day-to-day joys that only come from on-the-job experience. Which isn't intended to put you off, quite the opposite - just want you to go into it knowing what's ahead so you don't waste those course fees. Good luck if you do go for it.

PJ

 

[GLENNSPARK]

An evening course at one of the local colleges may be the way forward here methinks....by the way....i commend your enthusiasm and the fact that you have achieved much already.......but check the local colleges first....get the sylabus from em all and spent time studdying em all at your leisure without interference from pushy marketing teams or intimidating sales staff (that will go to considerable lengths to get you to part with cash).....and dont forget....that colleges act as non-profit making organisations as far as i know.....so all funds accrued go back into the college......ready for the next generation/intake to benefit from (new training equipment etc)........loads of helpful folk and useful info in here n all...so welcome to the forum and take a look around......

 

[lynneinjapan]

Thanks for all your replies! Glad I wasn't completely taken in by the sales pitch. I did look at local colleges initially but (a) I was completely bamboozled by what was on offer (I have a better idea of what the quals are now) and (b) what I saw seemed to be stretched out over several years. Will investigate further, and might also get some more detail from OCLI.

£60 per hour, who told you that?????????

The course adviser (i.e. salesman) of course - who else?!

He also said the going rate for a PIR on a 2-bed house is about £150, for no more than an hour's work. The £150 sounds realistic based on what I've read, but again I think he was being very optimistic on the time taken!

 

[trev]

A PIR in a 3 bed house takes an hour!? Tell him from me he is either an idiot or a cowboy.

 

[Engineer54]

A PIR in a 3 bed house takes an hour!? Tell him from me he is either an idiot or a cowboy.

Far more likely Both Trev...

 

[Engineer54]

After the course you'd probably be technically competent, but when you're house bashing (which it looks like will be your main direction of work) there's only about a third of the work is actual electrics. What they won't tell you on the course is how to route cables from where they are to where the customer wants them, the many different sorts of block and brick you'll find behind the plaster (and how to cope with them), and all the other day-to-day joys that only come from on-the-job experience. Which isn't intended to put you off, quite the opposite - just want you to go into it knowing what's ahead so you don't waste those course fees. Good luck if you do go for it.

PJ

How many 5/7 week wonders do you know that are technically competent?? lol!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I dont know if some of these posts to your thread will have convinced you lynne..but you should pay them considerable thought.......its just impartial advice being offered here.......i mean..... "a PIR in about an hour".....you cant give this credit.......

 

[dingledong]

i think murdock was being optomistic with £20 an hour unless your self employed a firm would not pay that and if you did rewire your property you would need certification if its rented and that would take a year at least

 

[TPES]

I always tell customers that the PIR will take between half, to a full day. Today I got the PIR Finished by 2.00pm

 

[Octopus]

I always tell customers that the PIR will take between half, to a full day. Today I got the PIR Finished by 2.00pm

And then you went home to generate the report??

 

[trev]

i think murdock was being optomistic with £20 an hour unless your self employed a firm would not pay that and if you did rewire your property you would need certification if its rented and that would take a year at least

Dingle she was asking our opinion about doing the knowledge and going self employed, how could rewiring and certification take a year?

 

[dingledong]

if she did a rewire and wanted to sign it off for renting ( as some agencies require this ) i would have thought she would have to show work to qualify to join an oprganisation of some sort

 

[lynneinjapan]

Well, I've looked at my four local colleges, but it's not very promising.

First one charges £890 for Part P and £315 for 17th Edition (cf. £1440 + VAT for these two at RF, so a bit cheaper), and from the course descriptions they seem to expect that anyone starting these courses is already a tradesperson doing some electrical work. I get the impression that the courses are largely theoretical too, in which case I might be as well to do it by distance learning (which I've also considered but I know I NEED the practical side.) I've sent off an enquiry anyway but I doubt if it'll work for me.

Second and third only do 17th Edition, theory only (and one also does 2391). The only other Electrical Installation courses they do are 2330 and 2357.

Fourth one doesn't seem to do anything at all of that ilk.

Dingle, yes, I realise that I'd have to get accredited by one of the trades bodies to be able to sign work off, and I imagine there'd have to be some kind of on-site assessment of my work for that. Would this take long once I'd got the relevant quals?

 

[dingledong]

it would depend on hpw much work you could get to show them . if you get 2 jobs and thats all they more than likely would not visit you , so it could take a year

 

[GLENNSPARK]

look.....the only thing that part p needs is for the applicant to hold the 17th edition....a crap state of affairs in itself really......its up to the o/p as to what route to take.....but i can see disappointment (and an empty purse) on the horizon here.......

 

[trev]

Dingle the 17 is a 10 week course (I believe) that is the minimum requirement for the NICEIC DI scheme. So after the 10 weeks the op gets the 2 major works required by the scheme, they come out to inspect and jobs a goodun she is an NIC DI.
Where does the year come from mate?

 

[D80]

From NIC requirements:

The business must also:
• Be directly engaged in domestic electrical installation
work and have experience of completing this type
of work for 12 months.

 

[Engineer54]

Geezus, ..... I wonder how many of these 17th Ed only DI's are out there, working in peoples houses?? frightening when you think about it!!!!

 

[trev]

They've waived the requirement for a trading history. You can even go straight for approved contractor now without a history. It must have been cutting down on their money making.
Yes E54 it is a scary thought how many people are running around with only the 17th, I know of 3 operating near me. Their work is disgustingly bad, I've cleared up a few of their messes and still they go on and they seem to be really busy. To add insult to injury they are pretty expensive too

 

[GLENNSPARK]

we come across stuff by em nearly every day eng.....do quite a bit for this letting agency and you know how tight landlords can be.....they will just go for the cheapest and that usually means one of these 17th only types that go round......so you can imagine some of the places we have to PIR....ffs.....:ninja:

 

[alarm man]

Hiya, I'm new to the forum and am thinking of retraining as a domestic electrician/installer (am I right in thinking that strictly speaking you can't call yourself an electrician unless you're qualified to do commercial as well?), and would like to know what folks here think of the idea, given my circumstances.

Bit of background: I'm 41, female, married with 2 young kids (5 and 2 tomorrow), live in Birmingham and have recently taken redundancy from my teaching job. I have a degree in electronic engineering, though all that means is that I'm good at exams - I've forgotten pretty much all of the content and, anyway, my knowledge of domestic electrics is practically non-existent.

Together with my husband I'm a landlord - portfolio grown organically up to now (he moved in with me, his parents moved to a retirement flat, we moved house, and we rented out each vacated house in turn) but we're hoping to grow further over the next few years, including doing some refurb work, so I thought that being able to do my own rewires, PIRs and PAT testing would be useful, and I could also generate a bit of income from doing other domestic electrical work. I've been assured that there's lots of demand for female sparks and I'll never be short of work, and told that the going rate is £60+ per hour (which I'm sure is very optimistic)... but that was by the people offering the training, who of course have a vested interest in getting me to sign up.

I've been looking at what courses are around for mature entrants from outside the trade, and the RF Training 7-week one looks quite good, albeit pricey at £5K + VAT (that does include all the relevant books, exam fees & kit, including a Megger MFT1710). I'm pretty sure I wouldn't qualify for any kind of retraining grants or discounts, so would have to pay full whack. The course includes C&G 2382, Part P, 2392 and Logic Cert. Domestic Periodic Inspection & Testing Award, which I'm told will mean I can do landlords' electrical safety certificates - though I gather from my research on this site that there's no such thing, so I guess he meant PIRs! I also asked about PAT testing and he said they'd include that at no extra charge, although it's not listed as part of the course content.

I understand that employers normally ask for 2391, but given my circumstances and aims, would there be any need for me to do it? They do offer it as an optional extra.

I appreciate that the course doesn't include any on-site experience - there's a lot of practical work but it's all in purpose-built training bays - so I'd hope to spend a bit of time alongside a practising spark before going it completely alone (although the course adviser assured me that I'd be fully competent and confident after just the 7-week course).

Also local to me is the OCLI Domestic Installer course: includes 2382, Part P, 2392-10 and 2377 plus solar PV. So it sounds much the same except that it would enable me to do solar PV (which I can't see myself making much use of, given the imminent drop in FIT payments) but not PIRs. I haven't yet enquired as to course fees or timescales for that one, but I imagine they'll be similar.

What would the additional ongoing / one-off costs be? I'm aware of:
Trade body membership (NICEIC / NAPIT / ELECSA etc.) - £400ish pa
Public liability insurance - about £100pa
Typical additional costs to maintain qualifications???

I'd have £240pw to pay for childcare on top of the course fees, so wouldn't want to spend any longer than necessary with the course not paying for itself! Once qualified, I'd also prefer not to work more than about 3 days a week on a regular basis.

Sorry about the length of this post - if you're still with me then thanks for sticking with it!

What do you reckon - good idea or waste of time & money? RF package better than OCLI one? Any better ideas?

why not just look after the kids,they need it at that age,or look after the inlaws instead of sticking them in a home and taking their house...just a thought like..

 

[lynneinjapan]

Well thank you for that lovely warm welcome, alarm man. Good to see that misogyny is alive and well. Oh, and don't you know the difference between a retirement flat and a home?

Everyone else, thank you for your helpful posts.

 

[trev]

I think that was him having a laugh as he has written in the past supporting more women coming in to the trade.
Made me giggle anyway

 

[alarm man]

Well thank you for that lovely warm welcome, alarm man. Good to see that misogyny is alive and well. Oh, and don't you know the difference between a retirement flat and a home?

Everyone else, thank you for your helpful posts.

i was only replying in the manner of the original post..

 

[Mad Spark]

Hi, and welcome to the forum,
I am also an electrician based in Birmingham and am fully aware of the training provider in question, I don't want to put any providers down in any way what so ever but just as a word of warning, I have recently, and would like to say foolishly, have taken on some hired help from a guy who has been and gained his qualifications from the very same company. He has done exactlly what you want to do and feels from what he has been taught to believe that he is now a 'FULLY QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN'.

However when asked to extend the ring main in a kitchen, he doesn't have a clue from where to begin, and after explaining it to him umpteen number of times he still cannot grasp that behind each socket there is an incoming and an out going leg, he seems to believe that the incoming is in the socket closest to the board and the out going at the furthest socket from the board.

The point being is that we all learn and start of somewher, some of us it takes a long time on the tools to get to a standard where we can call our selves improvers, and some time later with experience and knowledge can we then call us an electrician. There is no way at all that anyone can convince me that they can becaome an electrician in 7 weeks.

I also tested my mate on a few basics, what type of supply, whats zs, why we measure it, what to do when its too high, etc, each of these question he went arounfd and around the block but did not have the foggiest.

My sister is a teacher in a secondary school, and after comparing both our income, I also want to become a teacher, with all the holidays, finishing work by 3:30, I dont get home till gone 10 sometimes and thats with starting at 8:00 every morning. So my advice is to continue as a teacher, and if and when you need an electrician for your properties come along on this forum and advertise the job, I am sure some one on here will come out to help you out.

I hope I have helped in some way with real life examples

 

[alarm man]

I think that was him having a laugh as he has written in the past supporting more women coming in to the trade.
Made me giggle anyway

i like a laugh trev,but sometimes i wonder,nay sometimes i know that this industry is a complete joke..real sparks on the heap and people living in some kind of bubble thinking they can be what ever one day and a spark the next..

 

[Arnold Layne]

Lynne, good luck to you! I am sure that most of us wish you well. Just a couple of points not already made. Firstly to set the trade in context the route in to the commercial world is via a 4 year apprenticeship. Broadly speaking it is equally split between site work and theory. I am saying this just to highlight why so many are surprised that anyone thinks a 7 week course will do it. Electricians are one of the more highly educated/ skilled trades and electricians are justly proud of their achievements. The Part P
route you want to persue will allow you to undertake domestic work only. Its quality is questionable at best, but if that is what you wish to do press ahead. Be careful of relying on the training providers, they are selling courses nothing more. Frankly I question their claim on earning potential.

I think your challenge is going to be the practical work. I have a couple of suggestions. Ask around local companies to see if anyone is willing to take you on as an Adult trainee on a part P scheme. They would need to do domestic work and it won't be easy but you need to solve the problem of how to demonstrate that you are competent, so you need installs to show. By approaching local companies you will also get a real idea of your local labour market and what you can realistically expect to earn. You already have an associated qualification, so are more than capable on the theory. Someone may be able to suggest something.

My second suggestion is to contact the ECA. I read recently that they had just launched a scheme to get women into the trade and it was aimed specially at training them to do domestic work. The scheme they launched combines qualifications and a work face, but it does take 2 years. However it is worth a call to them as it will cost you nothing and may assist you in your choice.

As I said good luck, I hope it works out for you. But it is better to be properly qualified whatever you decide.

 

[High Tower]

Lynne,

Im a NICEIC Approved contractor based in birmingham, and i can assure you that the only reputable way to become a qualified spark is to go through the 2330, pm me and ill send you my number and if i can offer any ad ice , i will.

 

[simpson93]

managed to get my 17th and 2392 for £350 both however that came without training for the 2392.

 

[Deltron]

Far more likely Both Trev...

I agree, my old firm run by a cost cutting greedy but very successful man would make us do 1hour tests in 3 bed properties all over Sussex. Also done by apprentices who had to go out on their own. Can't believe how some bosses get away with it :veryangry2:

 

[supasparxs]

A PIR in a 3 bed house takes an hour!? Tell him from me he is either an idiot or a cowboy.

no I dis agree.
If I have tested the installation before, and I had a complete set of test sheets, drawings at my disposal and I was carrying out a sample test. I think it could be done in that time.
however, how often does this happen????

 

[parker56]

it takes me more than an hour just to do paper work

 

[lynneinjapan]

Thanks all for your advice - yes, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that a fast-track course isn't the answer. Will definitely try the ECA as suggested (it mentions "a new electrical qualification for the domestic market which is expected to be launched in early 2012" so I guess they're referring to the 2357 - but it sounds as if they're just sponsoring 12 women who've already started the process), but I might end up abandoning the idea altogether.

My sister is a teacher in a secondary school, and after comparing both our income, I also want to become a teacher, with all the holidays, finishing work by 3:30, I dont get home till gone 10 sometimes and thats with starting at 8:00 every morning. So my advice is to continue as a teacher, and if and when you need an electrician for your properties come along on this forum and advertise the job, I am sure some one on here will come out to help you out.

The grass is always greener, eh! I can assure you that although teachers may appear to have a light workload, that is most definitely not the case. Your sister could well be fairly well paid but as a part-time teacher employed for 0.64 fte (i.e. nominally about 24 hours a week) I was working about 35-40 hours a week on average during term time, so the hourly rate didn't work out all that great overall once all the unpaid overtime - and teachers never get paid overtime - was taken into account. A full-time teacher typically works 55-60 hours a week during term time, and that's not to mention the constant pressure you're under to improve results, behaviour, attendance, etc. Granted, the holidays are good, but even then you spend a fair bit of that time doing preparation and marking (plus you don't get any choice in when you take them).

 

[Octopus]

Hum, the grass being greener. If you're a self employed sparky you will gross between £20 - £35 per hour. You have all the admin to do, all the overheads to cover and still try and work 40 hours per week to make a decent wage, for 46 weeks a year. Guess what all the admin tasks need to be done in the evenings, at the weekends or like me at the moment, during the day when you're not earning.

The grass may be greener but you know why its greener don't you?

 

[trev]

no I dis agree.
If I have tested the installation before, and I had a complete set of test sheets, drawings at my disposal and I was carrying out a sample test. I think it could be done in that time.
however, how often does this happen????

How long would it take if you hadn't tested it before and had no prior reports and test schedules and not just a sample test? Full PIR, no info to hand just you, your test gear a set of blank forms and a pen.

 

[lynneinjapan]

Hum, the grass being greener. If you're a self employed sparky you will gross between £20 - £35 per hour. You have all the admin to do, all the overheads to cover and still try and work 40 hours per week to make a decent wage, for 46 weeks a year. Guess what all the admin tasks need to be done in the evenings, at the weekends or like me at the moment, during the day when you're not earning.

The grass may be greener but you know why its greener don't you?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that electricians have it any easier - I'm just tired of hearing people who've never stood in front of a class of kids trotting out the old chestnut that a teacher's job is a doddle. I've worked in industry (mostly an office environment, so I'm still not trying to compare with an electrician's job) for several years too, and I found the teaching a lot more stressful and exhausting for a similar salary. It has its rewards, but it's not an easy option, and whether the rewards outweigh the frustrations is debatable.

 

[Octopus]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that electricians have it any easier - I'm just tired of hearing people who've never stood in front of a class of kids trotting out the old chestnut that a teacher's job is a doddle. I've worked in industry (mostly an office environment, so I'm still not trying to compare with an electrician's job) for several years too, and I found the teaching a lot more stressful and exhausting for a similar salary. It has its rewards, but it's not an easy option, and whether the rewards outweigh the frustrations is debatable.

Believe you me I wouldn't be a teacher for all the tea in China! especially a secondary school teacher. Its not necessarily the kids its the parents who don't teach their kids right from wrong and respect for their elders, teachers etc

 

[TPES]

If I total all the hours a week I put into my work & running my business it may come to about 100 hrs a week, my mind is never off work, in the evenings it's paper work, invoices, quotes, test sheets and keeping my books.. If you break my hours down into my pay I would probably earn more working in asda! I honestly think at the moment that any other job will be financially rewarding than being a spark.

Just think..I could be any other trade...

Have No test equipment, No part P yearly fees, No books to keep buying, No regs courses to keep studying, No 4 years in collage with all the course fees, Not having the responsibility of putting my name on test certificates to say your house is safe, not risking my life day to day, without all these things I can still earn the same day rate as a spark and customers will pay it no problem, it's ridiculous!

If you want to get a trade behind you because you want to earn a living... Don't become an electrician..