RCD on socket outlets

[Dazza1976]

Hi all,

i have heard so much difference of opinion on this subject, and im sure it has been discussed many a time on this forum, but can anyone clarify a couple of questions i have on the subject please.

Do all new sockets installed have to be RCD protected, or is it only mandatory if they are likely to be used for powering anything outside or in a special location ?

When carrying out an electrical condition report, if none of the sockets installed have any RCD protection, would you put that down as a C1 code, or would you take into account the fact it was installed before the use of RCDs and was wired according to the regulations at that time and just put it down as a reccomendation to bring it inline with the current regs.
I have heard a few people say that its an instant fail, but im sure you have to give consideration to whn it was installed ?

Many thanks in advance

 

[telectrix]

Hi all,

i have heard so much difference of opinion on this subject, and im sure it has been discussed many a time on this forum, but can anyone clarify a couple of questions i have on the subject please.

Do all new sockets installed have to be RCD protected, or is it only mandatory if they are likely to be used for powering anything outside or in a special location ? read bs7671 reg. 411.3.3

When carrying out an electrical condition report, if none of the sockets installed have any RCD protection, would you put that down as a C1 code, or would you take into account the fact it was installed before the use of RCDs and was wired according to the regulations at that time and just put it down as a reccomendation to bring it inline with the current regs. C2 if for use outside. otherwise a C3 if installed to previous regs. and compliant at the time.
I have heard a few people say that its an instant fail, but im sure you have to give considerationto whn it was installed ?

Many thanks in advance

my thoughts in red. for the 2nd answer,to the inspector as to whether or not in constites a real or poptential danger. though, it's always down

 

[Andy78]

With this lack of knowledge about something very basic and widely known, you maybe shouldn't be carrying out this EICR.

 

[Hobsoni]

With regard to a condition report:-

as a minimum items installed prior to 7671:2008 without an RCD should be classified as C3 (improvement recommended). For me personally, if I enter a property that does not have any previous testing records (however obvious the age of the installation) then I would (using judgement) elevate such matters to a C2.

Obviously the installation premises type should give you a good idea of the level of protection required. If for example it was a hotel, and you were referring to the hotel rooms which are to be used by general members of the public then I would classify not having RCD protection on sockets a fail (C1 or C2) irrespective of previous testing records being satisfactory.

 

[Dazza1976]

Hi thanks for your reply,

I wouldnt say i have lack of knowledge on the subject as I too would have coded it a C2 or C3, I just wanted to hear your opinions on here, as i recently had the debate with a guy who was Niceic registered and he was adament that if it didnt comply with the current regs you would put it down as a C1 if the sockets had no RCD protection.

I will be honest, im not as knowledgebale as some of you guys on here, but im no Electrical Trainee either and did a full 3years City and Guilds

I appreciate your feedback though

 

[snowhead]

From the Electrical Safety Council guide;

Code C1
‘Danger present’. Risk of injury.
Immediate remedial action required.

Code C2
‘Potentially dangerous’.
Urgent remedial action required

Code C3
‘Improvement recommended’.

Can't see where a perfectly innocent Socket with no live wires hanging out of it can be a Code 1

 

[D Skelton]

Hi thanks for your reply,

I wouldnt say i have lack of knowledge on the subject as I too would have coded it a C2 or C3, I just wanted to hear your opinions on here, as i recently had the debate with a guy who was Niceic registered and he was adament that if it didnt comply with the current regs you would put it down as a C1 if the sockets had no RCD protection.

I will be honest, im not as knowledgebale as some of you guys on here, but im no Electrical Trainee either and did a full 3years City and Guilds

I appreciate your feedback though

Even still, your knowledge at this point it time is far too basic to be conducting periodic inspection and testing. Such a fundamental gap in your knowledge when it comes to design principles is evidence enough, and if someone doesn't know how to design, then they shouldn't be inspecting and testing. Going by some of your past posts you've only had your regs book for less than a year!

Do you hold a 2391 or 2394/2395 qualification? I'd steer well clear of EICRs fella, you could end up in a whole world of grief!

 

[Hobsoni]

From the Electrical Safety Council guide;

Code C1
‘Danger present’. Risk of injury.
Immediate remedial action required.

Code C2
‘Potentially dangerous’.
Urgent remedial action required

Code C3
‘Improvement recommended’.

Can't see where a perfectly innocent Socket with no live wires hanging out of it can be a Code 1

Agree, but the inspector should be competent enough to determine 'when' a certain 'type of accessory' May be fit for purpose in one environment type and not fit for purpose in a different environment type.


On a lighter note, there is an argument to say that everything should be classified as a C2............Anything is potentially dangerous in the wrong hands!

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

I think the new amendment will make thinks clearer on the installation of sockets.

 

[dingledong]

It's only by learning that you can move forward

.I have seen many reports that that have failed a properly which I would have passed with less remedials

 

[Hobsoni]

.I have seen many reports that that have failed a properly which I would have passed with less remedials[/QUOTE]


Obviously earns too much money

 

[nickblake]

If it were a student house then I would say a C2 how ever its not potentially dangerous its additional protection , so a risk assessment should be carried out, if the installation is rented / student let then its a higher risk as most students need a C2 for them selves , so to get a land lord to carry out works to protect himself you need to C2 it so it becomes an unsatisfactory inspection , really its all about risk assesment

 

[telectrix]

Hi thanks for your reply,

I wouldnt say i have lack of knowledge on the subject as I too would have coded it a C2 or C3, I just wanted to hear your opinions on here, as i recently had the debate with a guy who was Niceic registered and he was adament that if it didnt comply with the current regs you would put it down as a C1 if the sockets had no RCD protection.

I will be honest, im not as knowledgebale as some of you guys on here, but im no Electrical Trainee either and did a full 3years City and Guilds

I appreciate your feedback though

then he's either a numpty or fishing for extra work. that's like failing a car's MOT for dirty bodywork

 

[Silly Sausage]

a guy who was Niceic registered and he was adament that if it didnt comply with the current regs you would put it down as a C1 if the sockets had no RCD protection.

Being NICEIC registered and being competent/know what one is talking about are not necessarily mutually inclusive! :smilielol5:

 

[nickblake]

then he's either a numpty or fishing for extra work. that's like failing a car's MOT for dirty bodywork

And to right to !!!

 

[dingledong]

Or making money ! ! #

 

[dingledong]

:angel_smile:Hobsoni unfortunately I am honest and would never rip anyone of at all

 

[telectrix]

well, poor bugger's got to reclaim his exorbitant scam fees somehow.

 

[Dazza1976]

Even still, your knowledge at this point it time is far too basic to be conducting periodic inspection and testing. Such a fundamental gap in your knowledge when it comes to design principles is evidence enough, and if someone doesn't know how to design, then they shouldn't be inspecting and testing. Going by some of your past posts you've only had your regs book for less than a year!

Do you hold a 2391 or 2394/2395 qualification? I'd steer well clear of EICRs fella, you could end up in a whole world of grief!

Well thanks for your replies everyone.

Constructive criticism I havent got a problem with, but blatantly jumping in and putting people down with wrong assumptions I do.

Andy 78 and D Skelton, I appreciate you are both trusted members on this site and clearly have a wealth of experience and knowledge which i respect you for, but you jumped in and tried to belittle me without obviously even reading my post properly.

Where in the post did I say that I was carrying out an EICR myself or was about to do so ?? I havent and never said i did, as i wouldnt feel fully confident doing one on my own at this stage in time. Although i did a 3 years City and guilds course and have a fairly decent level of experience, i will be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn, and wouldnt put my name to anything like that until im fully experienced and feel confident to do so.

I was asking the questions as I am still learning and trying to better myself and improve my knowledge every day, and as i mentioned i have heard quite a few differences of opinion on the subject and wanted to hear what some of you experienced fellas on here had to say.

If a more experienced guy who is registered with Niciec tells you something different to what you believed, you are going to ask questions about it arent you ?

At the end of the day I am only trying to better myself, and make sure that Im doing things the correct way, as I too would like to be fully competent and be doing my own EICRs one day.

D Skelton why did you think it was necessary to read my past posts and then comment I have only had my reg books for a year ?? I had the old Brown 16th edition books for a good 7 years before that, and was also borrowing my friends 17th edition ones before i bought my own. You are implying that i only started reading the regs a year ago ?!

I love this site, as it has been an extremely valuable tool for gaining extra knowledge, I just dont like the way some people on here are always putting down others accusing them of being incompetent e.t.c when all they are trying to do is get advice and better their understanding of a very complexed trade.

You guys with the wealth of experience and knowledge should maybe think back to the days when you knew far less and were greatful to get any help and advice from others, instead of shooting people down and trying to make them look stupid.

 

[davesparks]

For a start I strongly recommend reading the guidance for people carrying out EICRs which is included in the standard forms at the back of bs7671.
It makes the position on older installations quite clear.

Also, an installation does not pass or fail an EICR, it is only a report on the condition of the installation. The report includes an overall conclusion of either satisfactory or unsatisfactory.