RCD trips every morning between 08.00 and 09.00

[pgrbff]

I live in rural Italy. You get to chose your max KW here and pay accordingly. Most home have 1.5-3.0 kw, I pay extra for 5kw. I am at the end of the low voltage lines, one of only a few on this circuit. I constantly have voltage problems, according to my fluke multimeter it can go from 190v to 234v over a few minutes without me changing the loads at home. Every time you switch something on you can here it from either the bathroom fan, cooker fan or oven fan slowing down or speeding up.
My main problem is that the RCD often trips, picture attached. Currently it is tripping nearly every morning between 8am and 9am. There are currently no devices on time clocks. I thought it might be the solar pump coming on but it isn’t. It trips when there is no sun and the pump is off.
I was considering installing a “restart” RCD but would be interested to know what you think. My electrician, although quite good does little more than shrug his shoulders.

 

[Lister1987]

Central heating? Time clock firing immersion on? Thermostat firing immersion on temperature drop?

 

[pgrbff]

The 3 central switches all go together.

Central heating? Time clock firing immersion on? Thermostat firing immersion on temperature drop?

Central heating? Time clock firing immersion on? Thermostat firing immersion on temperature drop?

No central heating or hot water other than solar. Solar not on clock. Pump kicks in when panels hot enough. Have stood and watched temp go up and pumps kick in without causing rcd to trip. Rcd has also tripped on days when too cloudy for solar pump to fire.
No immersion, gas boiler also off as not needed. Time is also not always exactly the same, just between 8am and 9am, never at any other time of day

 

[DPG]

Do any of your neighbours have something that switches on at these times?

 

[pgrbff]

I'm not even sure if there are any other properties on these lines, but it is perfectly possible. I assume a restart RCD would solve the problem? How do I determine if it is 2 or 4 pole?
The unit on the right is an RCD, what is the two gang switch on the left? Justa an MCB?
The wiring here is very different to the UK.

 

[static zap]

Thoughts try narrowing it down to the 3 central switches , as "a way in" for mystery current , by leaving one /or /other off and see if still trips.
(also watch supply volts-)
----Dafter thoughts---
One piece of equipment may be clever and shut down if volts are too low...Messily.
Any security ,daylight sensitive lights turning off ?

 

[GBDamo]

Whats on the C20 breaker?

If you can leave it off and see if RCD still trips.

Could be compression fault, as the sun comes up and the building expands, a cable somewhere is pinched and trips causing both on earth and short circuit fault.

 

[Toneyz]

I went to a house that had the same problem every morning the RCD tripped it turned out that every morning her husband had a shower in the master ensuite and water was finding its way past the tray seal through the joint in the floorboards and into the garage batton holder.

 

[Des 56]

Link to a previous discussion
This

 

[pgrbff]

I went to a house that had the same problem every morning the RCD tripped it turned out that every morning her husband had a shower in the master ensuite and water was finding its way past the tray seal through the joint in the floorboards and into the garage batton holder.

Wiring in Italy is all in conduits. As you build/rebuild walls are chased and conduits installed. 99.9% of floors are solid so conduits are laid before floor is poured. When the general building work is finished the electricians use a fish to pull the wiring which is always stranded here, through the conduits. If the distances are long you have to install larger intermediate boxes throughout the building.

 

[pgrbff]

As much as I would like to discover what is causing it, and I will continue to look, I need a solution soon. If I go out for the day, leaving before 8am, I’m likely to come home to a defrosted fridge and freezer.
The house wiring is divided into two, this is the main board, there is a granny flat which has its own distribution board. The RCD in the granny flat has been tripping randomnly for years, we have never discovered the reason.
The overhead low voltage cables to the house were replaced three years ago. Many houses here still only have 1.5kW supplies, the lines could not cope with my 5kW. I complained about low voltage, they made me pay for a device to be installed to monitor V for 10 days, and then replaced them. I still get very low voltages and have regular short power cuts.
This problem is relatively new and fairly consistant. Nearly every day.
I would like to buy a restart RCD but I’m not sure what to buy.

 

[marconi]

Some thoughts:

1. You have a 5kW supply. At 230V this is a current of 5000/230 = 22A.
2. Your Main disconnector - ABB ds642p - has three protective current detetction functions in one device - short circuit, prolonged over current and residual current through 'earth leakage'.
3. The short circuit function is obvious - could there be an intermittent short circuit i your home? If there was then other mcbs would likely operate - are there?
4. Prolonged over current. To protect wiring and not draw more than 5kW for 'too long' there is thermal device in ds642P which heats up and eventually will trip the disconnector. Might you be drawing more than its rating which is 20A during 0800-0900? As I said at (1) if your load is 5kW or more then the current flowing is 22A or more. Normally a 20A mcb would stay closed for a constant 20A. For an over current of 13%, ie: 1.13 x 20A =22.6A it is designed to not trip within an hour but could/will do after an hour has an elapsed. For an overcurrent of 45% ie: 1.45 x 20 = 29A it must trip within an hour. 22.6A and 29A are at 230V power consumptions of 5.2kW and 6.7kW. Might you be overloading your supply and the disconnector unknowingly?
5. Earth leakage is a fact of wiring and electricians and appliance makers try to keep it low. But when many things are energised and/or if wiring is not in its prime or been installed well, earth leakage can accumulate and be a high standing current. Although it says 30mA difference to trip the disconnector, a standing current of say 20mA has meant the earth leakage trip is operating within 10mA of its must operate threshold. For some earth leakage trip a lower current passing for longer will cause them to trip. You could asl your electrician to d a ramp test on the earth leakage detection function of the disconnector to discover if it is simply over sensitive or operating close to the threshold of tripping. Some electricians have a sensitive ammeter which will measure earth leakage by measuring the difference current in the two incoming lines or passing down the earth conductor. A way to overcome tripping due to accumulated earth leakage is to dispense with a single residual current detector(rcds) 'up front' and to protect sub sets of final circuits by two ore more rcds or to protect each final circuit with its own combined residual current breaker and overcurrent (rcbo) in lieu of the separate circuit breakers you have now.
6. Last, for now, some rcds are active types which means they trip when the electricity supply is lost or dips below a threshold. Your disconnector is designed to function normally for UT 125-230V - if an active type it may trip when the voltage drops below a threshold (125V?) Other rcds are passive types and don't respond to a loss of supply - I cannot quickly find out what type your disconnector is - do you have to reset it when you have a full blown power cut?
7. Ok, not quite the last - the disconnector may be suffering from old age or previous high current trips which can make it lazy and more sensitive. Loose/poor connections before or after the disconnector can also cause trouble to residual current detectors and so are worth checking thoroughly or remaking. And by connections that is all of them including where breakers connect to busbars and in/out of meters and intakes.

Hope this helps you a little. I would not support an auto remake disconnector. That would be an unsafe bodge.

Please keep us posted on progress if you would.

 

[static zap]

My thoughts were with @marconi No 6
(or a feature of outage triggering RCD)
Based on probable peak activity of others !
..No 4 is another of my plausible favourites.

 

[mattg4321]

Any insulation resistance testing been done? Ramp testing of the RCD? Earth leakage clamp meter?

I would do those tests in that order.

 

[marconi]

When my auntie lived in a farming hamlet near Aquino, she and her neighbours 'knew' the local electricity supply had its limitations. My British auntie had to learn to be more careful about what she used and when, and co-operate with neighbours to deconflict and spread out their heavier loads. No-one wanted to be the person who caused everyone nearby to be plunged in to darkness! Not a bit like the way be British do things without any real care for what, when and how much load we turn on. Her supply capacity was 25A but would not dream (nor would her neighbours) of using all that.

My auntie had a tariff that was dirt cheap 1900 to 0700 each week day and all weekend to encourage off peak usage. So for example she turned on the 1kW(!) over bath immersion heater when she went to bed and her washing machine at 6am when she got up.

As an extra, when I visited her with my father I had a butchers at the 'update' a local electrician had done. I found he had dug and installed the earth electrode, but forgotten to come back and run the cable between it and the CU. No mandatory testing and certificates. To be fair, this is not a story against Italian electricians - he knew it was required - the poor chap's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer and this meant travelling a very long way to the hospital (Gemelli in Rome) where she had her successful treatment - and at the same time work and look after their 3 junior school children and her mum(84 partially sighted) and dad(86 dementia) in the same home. He was exhausted by it all. He returned to do the work and invited my Aunt round for dinner to celebrate his wife's homecoming. Make sure you nag your wife to check her -----!

I have Italian blood so have a great fondness for Italy.

 

[pgrbff]

The house has been rebuilt over the last 3-4 years, all the wiring is new as is the conduit it has been pulled through. It has been a total rebuild and I am very hands on, so I know what has been done and how it has been done.
The electrician came highly recommended, I have no doubt they would not cut corners and I trust them. Having said that, as far as I am aware they did no earth leakage tests when each stage was completed. I do not know if they are considered necessary or infact reqd. according to local regs. There are a couple of pics attached of main distribution board to give indication of quality of work. You will see that there is probably less detail than UK. You can still put a switch and a 240V socket next to a sink in a bathroom here.
In the last hour, with only 2 fridges, a freezer, modem and router plugged in the voltage has been as low as 200V and as high as 236V.
I have had a month to try and work out what might be causing it but there really isn’t anything I can think of.
My gut feeling is that it is external.
I am not trying to avoid the issue by fitting a restart, we regularly have short power cuts that cause the RCD to trip, I am trying to make life a little easier/safer while I try to determine the cause.
During the winter we operate a wood fire boiler and during power cuts I have to manually start the generator to stop the boiler, which is a sealed system, overheating. The restart would help here too.

 

[marconi]

Studying the wiring inside the consumer unit and the legends on the front, the main income is into the ENEL disconnector top left. It feeds the ds642p I referred to earlier. To determine if it is an active or passive type could you do a quick trial?

1. Turn off all the mcbs to the right of the ds642p.

2. Turn off the ENEL disconnector. Does the ds642P trip? If 'yes' it is an active and if 'no' it is a passive type.

3. Return all mcbs to closed.

if you discover it is an active type then you could ask the electrician to swap it for a passive type which does not trip for a'black out' = no voltage or 'brown out' = low voltage (which your fluke readings show you suffer).

 

[pgrbff]

Thank you. As soon as I can I will do as you suggested.
Just for a change the RCD in the granny flat tripped this morning, and the one in the main board didn’t. It is the switch top left corner in images attached.
The relays are for 2 plus switching of lights which operate on push to make light switches. Normal practice here.

 

[telectrix]

nice to see other european countries complying with the harmonised colours,...NOT..... like seems it's only the UK that does.

 

[pgrbff]

I don’t know UK or Italian regs but if I have understood the idea behind your comment; all wiring is single strand here, pulled through conduits. The way they wire lighting especially is completely different. You end up with a vast number of different colours to differentiate between circuits. Every bedroom has a switch either side of the bed to control the room lights amongst other things.
Maybe I have missed the point altogether.

 

[telectrix]

the basic "harmonised" colours are brown for L, blue for N. black or grey can be used for either but must be sleeved with appropriate colours. so where for example you have blues for L, it's totally non-compliant with the stupid eu colour scheme.

here we've been perfectly happy with red for L and black for N till eu made us use the all colours are grey in the dark idiocy. than God we're out of the eu as soon as the politicians get their arses moving.

 

[pgrbff]

I’m often surprised by the huge difference in rules given the EU. You still get 240V light switches and sockets in bathrooms here, i was also told that the Italian regs insisted I have a TV aerial socket in every room or the electrician couldn’t sign off on the job.
I used to live on the “high street” of a small town, there was a butcher next door. Twice a week at around 5am, right below our bedroom on the 1st floor, a small lorry would back up and unload a live cow. I would then hear the chains running through pulleys as it was pulled up by its back legs.
For years In the UK farmers complained about the long distances their livestock had to travel for slaughter and the stress it caused, all because of EU rules. They don’t seem to apply here.

 

[marconi]

I can only see one perhaps two Green/Yellow conductors inside the annex CU. None visible in the main CU. Are final circuits provided with an earth (circuit protective conductor cpc) which is insulated GY?

Do you have an earth electrode close to the house and connected by a thick GY conductor to the Main Earth Terminal(MET) one in each CU?

Do you occasionally water (yes) the earth electrode? The plastic inspection cover should also have holes in it to allow rain water in.

 

[pgrbff]

Yes we have a new earth electrode, it has a lid which isn’t waterproof.
Immediately below each consumer there is a box through which all the cables are pulled. The brighter image is the box below the main consumer unit.
All the GY in the consumer units are tied together, main one too, and pass down to the boxes below.
I once stayed in a small house in Greece where every time you touched the shower knob you received that little fizzle! They insisted all we had to do was water the earth rod. We moved out.
We are not in a particularly dry area. We have never felt it necessary to water the rod. The earth rod is directly below the consumer unit one floor below.

 

[telectrix]

Yes we have a new earth electrode, it has a lid which isn’t waterproof.
Immediately below each consumer there is a box through which all the cables are pulled. The brighter image is the box below the main consumer unit.
All the GY in the consumer units are tied together, main one too, and pass down to the boxes below.
I once stayed in a small house in Greece where every time you touched the shower knob you received that little fizzle! They insisted all we had to do was water the earth rod. We moved out.
We are not in a particularly dry area. We have never felt it necessary to water the rod. The earth rod is directly below the consumer unit one floor below.View attachment 50702View attachment 50703

those pics are very appropriate for Italy. spaghetti nightmare,coloured as a meat feast pizza.

 

[pgrbff]

I installed all the sockets, working alongside the electricians, they all have earths as do all the light fittings. They did all the switches.

 

[pgrbff]

It is also a very expensive way to wire a house. On the upside it does allow you to modify the wiring.

 

[pgrbff]

It is also a very expensive way to wire a house. On the upside it does allow you to modify the wiring.

 

[pgrbff]

My electrician left me a voicemail today and I think the problem of the main CU is solved.
The two black switches on the left, main switch, and the RCD are combined.
If the main switch fires, it takes the RCD with it. I assume that the main switch might go for either a low or high voltage?
If on the other hand, the RCD detects a fault the main switch will remain on.
The problem with the voltage fluctuations will be a difficult one to solve, they say the lines to my house are the heaviest permissible.
So a restart seems to be the only option?

 

[pgrbff]

those pics are very appropriate for Italy. spaghetti nightmare,coloured as a meat feast pizza.

I thought you might like a look at some of the plumbing too.

 

[marconi]

The voicemail is not correct, or not totally correct. Let me explain.

The top left ENEL Arriva is where the main supply enters. It is a 32A circuit breaker which will trip on short circuit and prolonged overcurrent (as I described earlier). In its case, the 32A will hold for 1 hour at 1.13 x 32A and definitely trip after one hour on 1.45 x 32A. It is not sensitive to black out or brown out that is voltage because it is a passive device concerned with current effects(-but see later at # below). If it trips then you either have a short circuit fault happening or you are drawing too much current - see the hour figures I mentioned. The output of this circuit breaker supplies the RCD breaker (F202?) immediately to its right and the ds642p.

For clarity the ds642p is three in one unit as I explained in my first message, so this is all one device and the black switches will trip down on shprt circuit, overload or high earth leakage:



Did you do my test to discover if the RCD breakers (F202 and DS642P are active or passive types. If they are active then when the 32A ENEL breaker trips so will these two RCDS - so as the electrician said. But....if they are passive types then they should not trip if the ENEL breaker trips.

Now to # I mentioned above. If you have a short black out or brown out there may be such a brief surge in current upwards as the voltage returns or rises that the ENEL breaker is momentarily passing such a high current that it trips the short circuit mechanism - it is electromagentic functionality so fast acting (immediate) for currents from 3 to 5 times 32A or more (whereas the overload is thermal mechanic slow acting). If it trips it will need to be reset. If this is the case you may be able swap it for a less sensitive characteristic - we will discuss this once we know what kind of rcds you have.

 

[pgrbff]

The Enel Arrivo has never tripped to my knowledge.
The F202 to its right supplies the workshop downstairs which is physically disconnected from all machines and lights when it is not in use.
The single switch, Allogio, next supplies the granny flat.
It is only the ds642p and the elletrostop that all switch off together.

With all the mcbs to the right of the ds642p off, when I switch the Enel arrivo off the ds642p does not trip.

 

[marconi]

This indicates that the F202 and ds642p is a passive rcd devices - good.

The fact that the ENEL Arriva C32A does not trip indicates you have not drawn too much prolonged over current through it or had a short circuit - good.

You are back to checking background leakage current, ramp tests of RCDS wiring insulation resistances, testing individual equipments and appliances, connections, etcetera which have been mentioned by others. A competent, methodical electrician with the right test equipment, knowledge and experience and a bit of an Italian Sherlock Holmes in his nature.

Do your neighbours suffer like you or are you 'unusual'?

Had you thought about inviting out someone on the EF to take a look?

 

[marconi]

If I remember correctly some rural Italian single phase supplies do not have an earthed neutral which is why they mandate two pole circuit breakers. A single phase supply is derived from any pair of L1, L2 or L3. Do your electricity poles have three or four wires strung between them?

What you might ask ENEL is for them to move your home from the current two lines to another pair of lines to see if it makes any difference. You might just be connected to a heavily loaded line. You may have to swap again to try all the pairs of lines.

if it is three phase plus neutral (4 wire) you could still ask ENEL to move you to a lighter loaded phase.

Are you convinced you are not drawing more than 20A through the 642P 0800-0900 and in the run up to this period?

 

[pgrbff]

I don't have neighbours, we are at the end of the line. When they replaced the cables 2-3 years ago it was just for us. I'm not even sure if there is anyone else on this "spur". If there are it would only be small residential. I think we are fed directly from a substation and there are 3, I believe aluminium, twisted cables, possibly 80mm(2), but my memory has always been appalling so don't take my word for it.
It is hard to estimate but the line is probably around 2km long. It crosses a valley so is difficult to measure.
From what I understood there are 3 because I have the option of 3 phase and the non-earthed neutral does ring a bell.

 

[marconi]

I am going to let others follow up on whether you might be better off having a three phase supply and what would be required. It has great merit. Over a long distance lower currents in more conductors is beneficial to reduce volt drop and deliver the same power.

 

[marconi]

0800 to 0900.......

You have 2 fridges and a freezer. Are they frost-free?
To be frost free they have a heater controlled by a timer which is either a 24 hr clock with on/off settings or a stopwatch recording how long the compressor has run and after a predefined time turning on the heater.

 

[marconi]

Rather unusually, all your circuit breakers are Type C eg they are marked C20. In the UK, in the domestic setting they would normally be Type B and marked B20 for example. You might want to ask your electrician why this selection has been made and let us know what he says.

Here is an estimate of the volt drop for each amp of current flowing along the supply to your home where 0.33 V/A/km is the resistance per km at 25C of 85m2 aluminium conductor:

2 x 2km x 1 A x 0.33 V/A/km = 1.32 Volts

using Pigeon cable at:

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So, when you draw say 10A the volt drop is 13V, 20A it is 26V, 30A it is 39V.

Thus if the supply line is energised at say 230V, the voltage at the end of the line will be 230 - 13 - 217V at 10A and 25C ambient. Volt drop will be more in higher ambient temperature.

Items with a motor draw some 5-10 times there normal running current when they start. Your Fluke may be reading very low readings because on the min/max setting the meter captures these brief but large dips in voltage as the motor runs up (on top of any other current being drawn).

 

[marconi]

Is there any socket you can plug temporarily the fridges and freezer in to which is not covered by the ds642P in order to see if the trip stops and moves to another rcd which trips?

 

[pgrbff]

The fridge freezer combo in the area that covers the tripping RCD is not frost free. It is a basic small fridge with freezer above. I do not think there are any sockets not covered by the ds642p that wouldn’t require a 50m extension. Surely there is no time function on such a fridge that would lead the RCD to trip more or less at the same time? Yesterday it did not trip, but the granny flat did. Today it ha not tripped. My feeling is that it is becoming more infrequent.
There are 3 elements that are timed in some way on the ds642p.
A small bronze pump circulating the hot water which comes on for 10 minutes at 06.30 and twice more during the day.
A gardena watering timer that when it operates causes a shallow well pump, less than a year old, to come on for 10 minutes around 06.30.
The solar pump which comes on when the panels reach a preset temp. Usually around 08.30. However I have been present on more tha one occasion when the pump came on without tripping the RCD and the RCD has tripped when there has been insufficient sun to cause the pump to turn on.

 

[marconi]

No a timer is for a frost-free fridge or freezer.

It may not be when equipments turn on that causes the trip but when they turn off. You might want to check the off times for the things you just mentioned.

Is your hob or oven electric? it is a common problem for the electric elements to have earth leakage which can cause rcds to trip. The ds642p supplies your cucina. Might you turn the hob and oven off at its isolator switch when you aren't using them to see if the 0800-0900 aspect of the problem 'goes away'. (I don't want to explain the electrical reasoning just now 'cos I have not the time).

I still think it a good idea (ie. I would do it if I was you) to invite soon an electrician to do the testing and inspection I and others have mentioned because it would rapidly establish the state of your wiring installation and loads connected to it. It also has value in both quality and safety assurance for your peace of mind and your insurers. The Brains Trust which is the EF need some hard information in the form of electrical measurements to consider your problem further. Money well spent. That's my professional opinion - gratis.

I am going out now 1000 UK and will look again after lunch.

 

[pgrbff]

There is no hob or oven beyond the ds642p yet. We currently live in the granny flat. Almost all of the sockets beyond the ds642p are vacant. Bo the timers, watering and water circulation are only on for 10 minutes. Once the solar pump starts it will run all day, but the ds642p has never tripped in the afternoon-evening when the pump would stop.
Given all the problems I have had over the years with the supply, I still can't help think it is the problem.
I am waiting for the electrician to call me. Amongst other things, I'll ask him if he can do some testing.
Can you tell me again what tests@ I'll have to try and work out the translations.

 

[marconi]

I too think you have a poor supply. But first you need to clear your installation of any faults if they exist before remonstrating with ENEL. You may have both installation and supply problems.

DPG - would you advise pgrbff please on I & T, as I see you have been reading the posts. Or someone equally good?

 

[Wilko]

Hi - I know I’m late to the party, so apologies if this has already been covered
1. What type of earthing do you have?
2. Tell us about this solar pump thing you mentioned in the first post. Do you have solar panels? An invertor? Is it attached to your Consumer Unit? If so, I’d disconnect it all and see what happens tomorrow morning .

 

[marconi]

pgrbff: I have more time now and I don't think DPG has seen my post to him.

If you look at Mattg4321 #14 he has listed the important tests and the order in which to do them - the key words to translate are in bold. I will see if I can find some youtube clips you might look at too:

1. Insulation resistance of wiring between L and N, L and E and N and E at 250V and then 500V

2. Ramp testing of the RCDs.

3. With ENEL ARRIVA closed, total earth leakage current measurement using a clamp meter around the incomers and then around the earth conductor to the earth electrode.

and I would add a fourth and fifth

4. Check all connections are tight in consumer unit and kWh meter and do a 'tug' test on all ferrules to check conductors are indeed gripped inside them.

5. Check insulation resistance of appliances both portable and fixed which are normally energised on the circuits protected by the RCDs.

 

[marconi]

electrical wiring - cavi elettrici

electrical testing equipment - apparecchiature per prove elettriche

test di resistenza all'isolamento

250 Volts - 250 Volt

500 Volts - 500 Volt

test di rampa di interruttori differenziali

corrente di dispersione verso terra totale

incomers - cavi di alimentazione principale

earth electrode current - corrente dell'elettrodo di terra

tightness of connections - tenuta delle connessioni

pull test on ferrules - tirare il test sulle ferrule.

 

[marconi]

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[marconi]

I have asked an eminent electrician of the Electricians' Forum how much he reckoned these tests would cost and how long to do them. For a typical 3 bed house no more than £100 and a couple of hours at most with the right test equipment and competency in its use - this does not include searching for any faults, just the testing.

 

[pgrbff]

Many thanks for all your help. Much more than I would have expected. It has now been 3 days since the last time the RCD tripped, something has changed.

 

[marconi]

I don't want to overly alarm you but could you have a problem with rodents eating cables under the floor or in the loft or in outbuildings? Or ants getting into connections and electrical enclosures?

Have you had a period of wet weather followed by hot weather which has dried out everything?

Could you walk the length of the 2km line and check the conductors are in free space and not bothered by trees, etcetera. Or that no-one is pinching electricity by clamping on to the cables directly.



Please keep us posted.