ELECSA Certification Scheme Regulations Clarification (ELECSA Assesment)

[Nickj]

Hi All,

I have my ELECSA assessment in a few weeks time. I was going to install an in-line water heater at a friends house but am now considering a board change at another friends house as this seems to be what they really want to see.

I am trying to back up everything I do with regulation numbers (in case I get asked questions relating to it).

I have had a brief look at the house and have found the following:

- Switch wires at light switches are not identified: the house is currently entirely red and black cabling, the black switch wires at the sockets should be sleeved in red? Electricians guide to building regs 11.2.1 (a) The CPC is sleeved in solid green. Should I change this to green/yellow?

- Cooker isolator is directly above the cooker, it should be at least 100mm from the cooker - Part P - elec guide to building regs figure 5.2.2 (Incidentally how would you reference this on an EICR?)

To rectify this I think I will run a new cooker cable as it is a small house, however, is it acceptable to join new cabling onto existing inside the current isolator,put blank plate on and run the new length in trunking 100mm+ from cooker and re-terminate into new isolator? From what I can see in the regulations this would be fine as the reason for it not being above the cooker is to do with people reaching over.

-Main earth conductor undersized, currently 6mm^2, need to be 16mm^2 - 542.3.1 BYB
-Main bonding conductors undersized, currently 4mm^2, need to be 10mm^2 Table 54.8 BYB
-Meter tails undersized, currently 16mm^2, need to be 25mm^2 514.3 BYB, OSG 2.2.3

The issue I have here is an issue of demarcation. Where is the demarcation point to which I need to ensure the above complies. I have attached a photo of the incoming supply. I have read somewhere that my demarcation point for the meter tails is the isolator, I cannot find a regulation or official guidance for this? Or do I need to take it to the meter?

For the earthing conductor do I take it only to the connection shown in the picture or do I need to ensure it goes into the cut out?

-The meter tails currently run out of the back of the fuse board through the cavity and into the supply enclosure outside. Research is once again proving difficult on this, some say this is allowed for meter tails only but they must be in flexible conduit? Others say no cables allowed in cavity..I can find nothing in the guide to building regs about it. Any pointers would be much appreciated.

One final point is about maximum demand:
The house currently has:
- One ring final
- One lighting Circuit
- One cooker circuit
- One immersion heater

After a board change that would be: 32A ring final, 6a Lighting, 32A cooker, 16A immersion

Applying diversity, as per OSG, to cooker gives (10.8Kw cooker with plug) 26A, diversity to lighting (9 pendants in house - 100w per (osg)) - 3.5A, no diversity for ring final or immersion heater allowed (32 +16)
Total: 77.5A
The OSG states other methods are allowed to be used and their method is only a guide. Clearly this installation is not overloaded and so I here others use what is apparently a DNO rule of thumb of 40% of the total value of breakers, this brings it down to 34.5A. Would an assessor allow that?

Sorry for the wall of text and thanks in advance for any help,

Nick

 

[Richard Burns]

Good luck with the assessment.

A CU change is a useful thing to have as an assessment job as it covers a lot of checks.

It is worth remembering that the CU change is the job you are doing and the circuits you re connect have to be safe to use, i.e. no immediately dangerous items.
This means for example that the cooker switch that has presumably been in place for a long time is not immediately dangerous and could be left as it is, though of course if you can change it then this is an advantage.
Switch wire identification/ green and yellow sleeving is something that is normally done as and when a circuit is updated as the labour is excessive for the gain otherwise. To sleeve something in red is not actually an option in the current regulations but sleeving in brown does not match the basic colour scheme. I would sleeve brown if I were doing it. The green sleeving indicates that the age of the cables may well be imperial sizes, worth noting for when completing the schedule of test results.
Cooker switches are recommended 300mm away from the cooker not 100mm, it might be an observation that a cooker switch is in a position unsuitable for external influences other than that it is not a wiring regulations issue. I would try and avoid running trunking above a cooker as it could soften easily in the heat, a chase would be much better, the blank plate could stay there so long as there is no evidence of heat damage previously.

Because the meter head and cut out is sealed (or meant to be in the picture above) you cannot change things connected to them, though the tails from meter to isolator (or CU) are your responsibility.
UKPN produced this responsibility diagram for reference.

Check the minimum sizes required for the various conductors, not the catch all sizes given in the OSG.
Tails limited to 60A so 16mm² OK. A calculation will show that the main earth is probably OK (looks like 10mm² from the terminal block), the bonding (and main earth) do need to be at least 10mm².

Cables are not recommended in the cavity as they may bridge the space between the walls, but this is rarely a problem and not worth addressing, but try and avoid installing it new.

The demand is less than 60A as the fuse has not blown! so I would go for the *0.4 approximation, it is all very variable and only a clamp meter on the tails with every possible item switched on and running can really tell you maximum demand and then it would change with what is plugged into sockets.

 

[westward10]

Why can't existing switch line conductors be sleeved red?

 

[Richard Burns]

Why can't existing switch line conductors be sleeved red?

I am just being specific about the regulations. Whilst I can see that a red sleeve is easily understandable, if you consider that you are doing new work, i.e. sleeving conductors as a job, then this work must be compliant to the current regulations and there is no provision in the regulations to allow the colour red to be used as conductor identification.
If someone is doing an assessment they should be complying with the regulations, however it would be easy to say the red sleeving was already there (though is is very rare to find red sleeving in domestics, not a popular action at the time it seems!).

 

[Nickj]

Thank you very much for a detailed response.

There are a few broken switches and the bathroom light is a standard pendant and so I am going to change these as a matter of course.

The main earth definitely appears to be 6mm^2 so I should change it to at least 10mm^2? (Or 16). If I change it do I only need to change it to that connector or should I contact the dno to change up to the cut out?

Also I have noted that the kitchen sockets appear to be overloaded. There are only 2 double sockets in the kitchen and extension leads running everywhere for washing machine, fridge freezer, kettle, microwave etc. I was thinking of running a new separate ring for the kitchen so I can provide additional sockets. Would that be *required* or is it just a nice optional extra? (No signs of overheating etc)

Nick

 

[Midwest]

Firstly I'd give that meter box a dammed good hoover, and dispose of those rusty old seals, did WPD leave the temporary seal numbers behind?

Difficult to tell the size of the earthing conductor, if you do end up replacing it, I would terminate it into the cut out, or replace that plastic connector with a 'proper' eathing terminal. I also like to block up all the holes 'bashed' into the meter cabinet, with some expanding foam It's an attempt to keep out spiders, mices, seal fairies and other such wildlife that pooh over everything!

You could contact your DNO and ask about their main fuse policy (you pulling it), and also they may upgrade fuse and MAY recommend/require tails size.

You would have to upgrade the earthing conductor (if necessary) and the main protective bonding conductors, the rest of the installation only warrants attention if it is unsafe to energise and the customer is willing to pay (I've walked away when it is and they are not). You could put your observations on the EIC. What CU are you going to install?

Good luck with your assessment.

 

[Midwest]

I am just being specific about the regulations. Whilst I can see that a red sleeve is easily understandable, if you consider that you are doing new work, i.e. sleeving conductors as a job, then this work must be compliant to the current regulations and there is no provision in the regulations to allow the colour red to be used as conductor identification.
If someone is doing an assessment they should be complying with the regulations, however it would be easy to say the red sleeving was already there (though is is very rare to find red sleeving in domestics, not a popular action at the time it seems!).

I tend to agree with Westward, when finding missing sleeving on non harmonised coloured cable, i.e. use red on old black. As I would not be installing old cables, and therefore having to comply with current regs? This normally only presents itself when replacing luminaires & faceplates, often sleeving falling off! I therefore replace with what was there before, or should of been.

 

[Nickj]

I wanted to avoid contacting the dno if possible as they seem rather expensive however if it is needed then I will do it, unlikely they'd allow me to pull main fuse as they have a charge for it (western power).

For assessment if I changed the plastic connector block for a proper earth terminal and ran 16mm^2 to the board from that would I be complying/justified?

I'll upgrade the bonding as a matter of course as its undersized.

I'll be installing a very nice looking MK sentry 16-module 10 way split load consumer unit. It looks stunning in my opinion

 

[Midwest]

I wanted to avoid contacting the dno if possible as they seem rather expensive however if it is needed then I will do it, unlikely they'd allow me to pull main fuse as they have a charge for it (western power).

For assessment if I changed the plastic connector block for a proper earth terminal and ran 16mm^2 to the board from that would I be complying/justified?

I'll upgrade the bonding as a matter of course as its undersized.

I'll be installing a very nice looking MK sentry 16-module 10 way split load consumer unit. It looks stunning in my opinion

As you are starting out, I would quantify exactly where you stand with removing main fuse, i.e. in writing (email) with your local DNO. On your next CU, you may not have an isolator in the meter cabinet. I'm led to believe some DNO's will stipulate a certain size tails.

If the earthing conductor is the correct size, then a new earthing terminal would suffice. I tend to fix an earth warning label on or nearby.

With the number of existing circuits available, you may wish to reconsider your CU selection. For example a RCBO populated CU may be a consideration; this current thread discusses certain issues Consumer Unit Changes, options for Customers - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/consumer-unit-changes-options-for-customers.113293/

Re the kitchen issue, have you advised your customer and what do they want to do (is it your property or a friends?)?

 

[Nickj]

Hello,

It is a friends house and he his happy to do whatever I suggest, namely as I'm picking up the tab due to me using it for assesment and the inconvenience it'll cause wth council coming around at least twice, then assessor.

I'm inclined to run a new ring to the kitchen and will most likely do so although out of interest I wondered if it would be required.

I read that forum post last night regarding rcbos and my thinking is that it's overkill especially on such a small house. I was going to put the cooker and new kitchen sockets on one of the rcds and the sockets, immersion and lights on the other rcd.

I could have gotten away with a smaller consumer unit but thought this would be more suitable as allows for additional circuits in future, if needed.

Does this sound ok to you, from an assesent point of view?

Nick

 

[westward10]

I am just being specific about the regulations. Whilst I can see that a red sleeve is easily understandable, if you consider that you are doing new work, i.e. sleeving conductors as a job, then this work must be compliant to the current regulations and there is no provision in the regulations to allow the colour red to be used as conductor identification.
If someone is doing an assessment they should be complying with the regulations, however it would be easy to say the red sleeving was already there (though is is very rare to find red sleeving in domestics, not a popular action at the time it seems!).

Just wondered, I still carry red and black sleeving. If I replace a switch, light or fan I will sleeve it to the existing colours to save any confusion.

 

[Midwest]

Hello,

It is a friends house and he his happy to do whatever I suggest, namely as I'm picking up the tab due to me using it for assesment and the inconvenience it'll cause wth council coming around at least twice, then assessor.

I'm inclined to run a new ring to the kitchen and will most likely do so although out of interest I wondered if it would be required.

I read that forum post last night regarding rcbos and my thinking is that it's overkill especially on such a small house. I was going to put the cooker and new kitchen sockets on one of the rcds and the sockets, immersion and lights on the other rcd.

I could have gotten away with a smaller consumer unit but thought this would be more suitable as allows for additional circuits in future, if needed.

Does this sound ok to you, from an assesent point of view?

Nick

Sounds like your friend is getting a good deal, if you don't mind and he's not paying, do whatever you feel will improve things for your friends property. But it's not necessary for you assessment, as long as the existing is safe etc, remember the reg. that the circuits must be safe to energise. Could you split the lighting circuit, if money and time are not a concern?

If you were not to do the new kitchen ring, I would tend to install an RCBO CU with just four circuits, might even do it with new RFC. Price difference only about £60. You statement about which circuits to go on which RCD, just needs think about again.

 

[westward10]

Hello,

It is a friends house and he his happy to do whatever I suggest, namely as I'm picking up the tab due to me using it for assesment and the inconvenience it'll cause wth council coming around at least twice, then assessor.

I'm inclined to run a new ring to the kitchen and will most likely do so although out of interest I wondered if it would be required.

I read that forum post last night regarding rcbos and my thinking is that it's overkill especially on such a small house. I was going to put the cooker and new kitchen sockets on one of the rcds and the sockets, immersion and lights on the other rcd.

I could have gotten away with a smaller consumer unit but thought this would be more suitable as allows for additional circuits in future, if needed.

Does this sound ok to you, from an assesent point of view?

Nick

Well personally I would use separate rcbos due to the amount of circuits which achieves better division of circuits, but you have already read of us going on about this!
Before ripping out the old board test it first in case there are problems which you may want to resolve first, nothing worse that fitting the new board and spending all night to find out why one of the circuits trips the rcd.
From my experience of Elesca they are obsessive about covering the new board in the correct stickers. Good luck.

 

[Midwest]

One thing perhaps needs clarifying, does the install have an isolator switchfuse because of length of tails?

 

[westward10]

H

One thing perhaps needs clarifying, does the install have an isolator switchfuse because of length of tails?

His pic shows a 60A switch-fuse.

 

[Midwest]

H

His pic shows a 60A switch-fuse.

Just wondering why, is it a long cable run and perhaps inappropriate cable or DNO sw/fuse (does seem a bit old for DNO)?

 

[westward10]

I suspect the reason/ ownership of the switch-fuse is long forgotten.

 

[Midwest]

I suspect the reason/ ownership of the switch-fuse is long forgotten.

I don't know, might be some clues on that WPD bit of paper

 

[Nickj]

It's not there because the run is too long, definitely <<3m. Unsure why it's there but works well for my assessment as no need to arrange de-energisation, assuming we all agree that I can just upgrade the main earth to where the connector is currently (changing it to a proper earth terminal).

It's an ex council house that he bought a few years ago. Last inspection 1998!

 

[westward10]

Well that Wylex standard board will have a 60A switch so maybe it is to protect that along with the 16.0 tails?
You can probably get away with a 10.0 earth seeing as circuit protection is provided by the fuse at the switch-fuse.

 

[Nickj]

As he new board will have 100A main switch should I upgrade the tails between CU and the switch fuse?

I think not as the cable is still protected by the switch fuse?

Im now going along the lines of just needing to upgrade main earth from CU to the earth connector in the enclosure and upgrading bonding to 10mm^2.

I'll check all wiring before I go ahead with the swap so that if there are any issues I can address them before switching over.

Still in shock that council want £164 for me to notify!

 

[Midwest]

Have you thought how to run the new tails, room behind the door frame?

 

[Midwest]

Still in shock that council want £164 for me to notify!

Errgh?

 

[westward10]

Existing tails should be okay, have you checked the fuse? Upgrade bonds and earth to CU, 10.0 is fine.

 

[Midwest]

As he new board will have 100A main switch should I upgrade the tails between CU and the switch fuse?

!

Will the old tails be long enough?

 

[westward10]

Have you thought how to run the new tails, room behind the door frame?

Pull new earth through using the old one, that's always straight forward ain't it

 

[Nickj]

Will I need to run new tails? If I was going to would running it through the cavity as they are currently but in flexible conduit suffice?

There would be space behind the door to run some trunking with tails in. I could run it in trunking and then drill diagonally into the box...

 

[Midwest]

Pull new earth through using the old one, that's always straight forward ain't it

Twas thinking they are currently in the cavity

 

[Midwest]

Will I need to run new tails? If I was going to would running it through the cavity as they are currently but in flexible conduit suffice?

There would be space behind the door to run some trunking with tails in. I could run it in trunking and then drill diagonally into the box...

Putting the tails in some flexible conduit, may prevent damage as you install them. If you can find another way, it would be better IMO

PS you mate needs to get his paintbrush out, or are you having to do that as well!

 

[Nickj]

I could come across and down I trunking then through the wall into trunking for 50mm or so then straight out into enclosure. It wild be less than 3m (much less). I hate the look of trunking and so will my friend. Is it more regs friendly to do it this way?

We are definitely in agreement that if I replace tails I only need to replace to the switch fuse? Similarly wth the main earth to the connector?

 

[Midwest]

PPS and you need to consider how you will run the new tails into new CU, without having to afford RCD protection, i.e. you can't flush them in.

 

[westward10]

PPS and you need to consider how you will run the new tails into new CU, without having to afford RCD protection, i.e. you can't flush them in.

Mmm, good point. I would utilise the old ones if possible.

 

[Nickj]

Indeed thus trunking. That would be compliant? (Ugly as sin but compliant).

Hopefully the current tails are long enough in which case I only need to replace the earth conductor for 10mm^2?

 

[Midwest]

We are definitely in agreement that if I replace tails I only need to replace to the switch fuse? Similarly wth the main earth to the connector?

Without the 60amp switchfuse (take it's 60a?), you would have to size the tails to main fuse, 100amp - 25mm tails. Also depends if you mate adds to the swanky new CU you going to install for him in a few years, 10.5kw shower and a hot tub!

 

[Midwest]

Indeed thus trunking. That would be compliant? (Ugly as sin but compliant).QUOTE]

QUOTE]

Nice bit of 50x50mm in the corner behind the door would look okay, floor to ceiling?

Nice bit of 50x50mm in the corner behind the door would look okay, floor to ceiling?

 

[Nickj]

Without the 60amp switchfuse (take it's 60a?), you would have to size the tails to main fuse, 100amp - 25mm tails. Also depends if you mate adds to the swanky new CU you going to install for him in a few years, 10.5kw shower and a hot tub!

The switch fuse is 60A. If I need to run new tails (hopefully not) I'll run 25mm^2 so if upgrades are wanted in a few years that take us above 60A then we can arrange for supply upgrade

 

[Nickj]

Without the 60amp switchfuse (take it's 60a?), you would have to size the tails to main fuse, 100amp - 25mm tails. Also depends if you mate adds to the swanky new CU you going to install for him in a few years, 10.5kw shower and a hot tub!

The switch fuse is 60A. If I need to run new tails (hopefully not) I'll run 25mm^2 so if upgrades are wanted in a few years that take us above 60A then we can arrange for supply upgrade

 

[Midwest]

You going to have fun terminating any size cable in that manky old switch fuse mind, being so close to the top of the cabinet!

 

[Nickj]

It wouldn't need to be floor to ceiling trunking, but I could put it floor to ceiling to make it look a little better

 

[Midwest]

Suns above the yardarm, so I'm off to inspect the ships galley.

 

[Midwest]

It wouldn't need to be floor to ceiling trunking, but I could put it floor to ceiling to make it look a little better

Yep that's what I was thinking!

 

[Nickj]

Let's hope current tails are long enough then. Pulling a 10mm earth through cavity will be ok? Or should I go trunking route for that? Would you contact dno to upgrade all the way to cut out or just to the connector?

 

[Midwest]

You delaying my G&T! I see WPD charge £157.26 + vat, to provide a new isolator. Has your pal got the pennies?

 

[Nickj]

You delaying my G&T! I see WPD charge £157.26 + vat, to provide a new isolator. Has your pal got the pennies?

If it's needed for my assesment I'll have to find the pennies. I don't think it is though?

Enjoy your G&T! Nothing better on a Saturday night

 

[Midwest]

If it was me. New WPD isolator. You can then do you bit at your leisure! New 25mm tails & 16mm earth conductor run horizontally through the wall (in flexible conduit) into hallway, then into trunking into ceiling back done in trunking, into RCBO populated CU or High Integrity CU. But then its not my money we're spending. Now that's it, off to the galley. :gru:

 

[Nickj]

Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?

For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?

Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.

 

[Midwest]

Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?

For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?

Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.

Nope ask away. Yep, except if you do replace tails to 25mm, the earth needs to be 16mm.

Personally I would do what I said in #45. The switch fuse is gonna be a nightmare to terminate into, you can't move it without pulling main fuse, which WPD won't let you do without a bill for £57 + vat (what does their bloke do sit in his van all day, waiting for you to do you bit!), by the way entry into the top of a meter cabinet is a carp. By the by, what was that 100 squids the council wanted, about?

 

[Nickj]

If the current meter tails have enough slack on them to terminate into new CU would you just run a 10mm earth to that connector point and call it a day?

I am going to phone WPD and NPower Monday morning (did try earlier, both closed - unsurprisingly).

The council want £164 inc vat for me to notify, this is an expensive assessment! Costing me a fortune overall

 

[westward10]

Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?

For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?

Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.

You are overthinking this, if I was to assess the job and you had left the existing tails in place, upgraded earth and bonds to 10.0 I would not find a problem with it. I would definitely recommend separate rcbos though due to the limited amount of circuits.
The assessor is not there to catch you out, he/she will not ask mind bending questions. They may question your methods but be confident in what you have done.

 

[Nickj]

Thank you westward10, I am seriously stressing over this!

If you could take a look at the first picture I posted where the is a connector block on the earth going to cut out and then onto CU, would you just run a 10mm earth to that block (and upgrade with a proper earthing terminal)? Or would you arrange to have it run all the way to cut out? I'm sure I read somewhere that the demarcation point is that earthing terminal.

There will be 4 or 5 circuits:

Current socket ring
New kitchen ring (if I run one)
Cooker
Immersion
Lights

You'd run 5 rcbos?

I'll check the cost :O

EDIT: Just checked cost and MK is very expensive. Could go BG 10 way board and 5x rcbos for £130 or so.