Smart meters, pulling fuses, what’s the latest?

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Rpa07

Rpa07

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Was searching around previous threads going back into 2016 reference to pulling the fuse upstream of the meter. Trying to find whether it makes the meter go doolally with self preservation!
I’ve only pulled the fuse on one modern smart and it was ok, we’ll it didn’t shreak at me!
I’ve got a stand alone RCD that I can leave in place until I’ve done all my CU change and the time to do it but wondered if anyone has any stories or are they all mythical tales. Cheers
 
Rpa07 said:
Was searching around previous threads going back into 2016 reference to pulling the fuse upstream of the meter. Trying to find whether it makes the meter go doolally with self preservation!
I’ve only pulled the fuse on one modern smart and it was ok, we’ll it didn’t shreak at me!
I’ve got a stand alone RCD that I can leave in place until I’ve done all my CU change and the time to do it but wondered if anyone has any stories or are they all mythical tales. Cheers
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"Game of Meters" a new TV extravaganza.
 
Pete999 said:
"Game of Meters" a new TV extravaganza.
Click to expand...
@Vortigern will be along in a minute with the tin foil hat he keeps in his sock drawer. Reading the posts from 2016/17 was quite amusing. Haven’t heard much lately though there must have been hundreds of seals (missing) and fuses pulled for CU changes.
 
Murdoch said:
Whats the difference between a power cut and the fuse being removed and replaced?
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That’s what I’m getting at - do they scream when you cut them or is it a myth?
There were posts about meters locking themselves out in tamper mode.
 
It's always handy when they fit SP mains blocks after the meter but if the meter tails in your case go straight from the meter to the board which is to be changed there's no sensible option but to pull the fuse- better than taking the terminal cover off the meter as that has a tamper switch ! :eek:
 
So what happens in that instance - will it lock the meter?
freddo said:
If you are replacing the tails many smart meters have a tamper switch operated by the terminal cover.
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As I have the in line RCD I may DP Henley it - quick fuse pull to help with Health and safety! I would prefer non broken tails though!
 
Going back to those last year threads members were saying that because it would be real time then there wouldn’t be time for it to report the cut of power and that’s the reason I’m asking - as Lee says, he’s had no problems and except for the tamper door issue - how much is real not speculative?
 
I have had one of the early smart meters make a sad beeping noise.. was like an episode of casualty... but fuse was only out whilst i fitted an isolator, as soon as it was back in it stopped. from what i have found doing a bit of digging on t'interweb... the energy firms can if they set the system up monitor the meters to alert them to things such as loss of supply, faults.. the fuse being pulled an example as they dont know if its blown or been pulled... at the same time these firms pay the call centre staff a pittance and cut back most things so i cant see them paying staff to monitor these things... the meters do have an event log on one of the chips in side which could if they bothered to extract the data show the supply was interrupted.. again its the cost of doing this. only if something went belly up would they bother.. if you are really worried about them noticing the fuse has been pulled in real time. put a tin or something metallic over the meter! will act as a Faraday cage blocking the phone signal. in the event the software in the energy firm alerts them to it being pulled, when somebody gets around to looking at it, there is a good chance the fuse will be back in and everything normal. so they will just carry on as they were before.
 
Gavin John Hyde said:
I have had one of the early smart meters make a sad beeping noise.. was like an episode of casualty... but fuse was only out whilst i fitted an isolator, as soon as it was back in it stopped. from what i have found doing a bit of digging on t'interweb... the energy firms can if they set the system up monitor the meters to alert them to things such as loss of supply, faults.. the fuse being pulled an example as they dont know if its blown or been pulled... at the same time these firms pay the call centre staff a pittance and cut back most things so i cant see them paying staff to monitor these things... the meters do have an event log on one of the chips in side which could if they bothered to extract the data show the supply was interrupted.. again its the cost of doing this. only if something went belly up would they bother.. if you are really worried about them noticing the fuse has been pulled in real time. put a tin or something metallic over the meter! will act as a Faraday cage blocking the phone signal. in the event the software in the energy firm alerts them to it being pulled, when somebody gets around to looking at it, there is a good chance the fuse will be back in and everything normal. so they will just carry on as they were before.
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Nice one Gavin, point is if the supply is interrupted and is restored after however long and all readings are the same before and after, then there should be no issue. I just wanted to make sure there was no annoying meter ‘shutdown until unlocked’ affair which would really annoy. Sounds like there isn’t save the tamper cover on the tails, meter to CU, so thanks for the inputs.
 
7029 dave said:
they can tell if there is an DNO outage, if not supply has been de energized unauthorized.
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For this to work conclusively, all the energy suppliers need access to a master database of DNO outages, and all the DNOs need to populate details of all their outages.... that all seems rather far fetched. We are in a rural area and experience frequent short (up to a couple of minutes duration) outages, particularly on windy nights, sometimes just on one phase. I doubt very much there is any record of these, as on the odd occasion I've reported them, the DNO are unaware and they don't appear on the SSEPD Power Track map. Agreed that major outages covering hundreds of premises for longer periods of time will be documented.
 
TonyMitchell said:
For this to work conclusively, all the energy suppliers need access to a master database of DNO outages, and all the DNOs need to populate details of all their outages.... that all seems rather far fetched. We are in a rural area and experience frequent short (up to a couple of minutes duration) outages, particularly on windy nights, sometimes just on one phase. I doubt very much there is any record of these, as on the odd occasion I've reported them, the DNO are unaware and they don't appear on the SSEPD Power Track map. Agreed that major outages covering hundreds of premises for longer periods of time will be documented.
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I agree, lets be sensible about this, if seals are cut by sparkys to do their job, CU changes etc I have no problem with that see it all the time, what gets my goat up is when I see the wire on.!! We all pay for that. This is why the tamper device is in place on the new tech meters.
 
I recall a case a year or two back where somebody had racked up huge water bill debts and point blank refused to pay... for some legal reason they cant cut off your water for non payment except in very very rare reasons as water is essential for life... likewise for the energy firm to shut off a smart meter remotely with no knowledge of the reason for an alert is a bit iffy.. for all they know somebody is tucked up in bed on a ventilator or in a lift etc... shutting it off remotely opens them up to failing in the duty of care should somebody come to harm... these firms have legal depts bigger than most american nfl teams... if they want to shut the meter down then i would be almost certain they would need to send an engineer around to check first in order to cover there backsides. then they might phone back to hq to send the kill signal or just plug in and do it on site...
 
7029 dave said:
Correct, and they can tell if there is an DNO outage, if not supply has been de energized unauthorized.
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I asked this question the other day just before the fuses on a 3 phase supply with a brand new half hour reporting meter all fell out. My youngest is responsible for many power outages being a dno sap (he authorises work on the network) and he said he does nothing different since the introduction of smart meters. He communicates with their control centre in Wales and nothing more. DNO procedures have not changed
 
a
Murdoch said:
Yup ........... the muppets who came up with multiple types of smart meters also failed to include isolation switches as part of the solution ............. so no sense from the suppliers IMHO
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gree. all smart meters should be of the type that has a flick switch on the output so that safe working practice is simple without having to cut seals. it's not rocket science, is it?
 
At a guess a lot of the smart meters that have already been installed will be ripped out and replaced with a newer version soon so all suppliers can use them.

It will again be another missed opportunity to fit an isolator for us to use...
 
As an ex dno employee, I would doubt that there would ge much of a problem. If the meter registered an unauthorised disconnection, as some one else has said, how would it discriminate between the main fuse geing pulled and a supply disconnection. Even if the meter somehow could be set to do this, most mains outages or power cuts would affect a whole area, not just one property.
 
Murdoch said:
Yup ........... the muppets who came up with multiple types of smart meters also failed to include isolation switches as part of the solution ............. so no sense from the suppliers IMHO
Click to expand...
I have had 3 smart meters as i switch every year for the best deal. the first barely got a signal and i had to manually give them readings still, the second meter was eon, i switched to npower so it stopped working and resorted to a dumb status, start of last year i switched back to eon due to the discounts and promo's. the meter that was once an eon meter could no longer be read by them having somehow lost its smart features!?? they could manually call it to get a reading but it would no longer auto send data. so they came out and fitted a new smart meter. I recently switched to edf who then proceeded to fit another smart meter! none had an isolation switch you could operate!
 
Cut Out fuse removal is classified as a Network Switching Operation and therefore should only be carried out by personnel trained and authorised to do so.
Do you have the correct PPE for removing and refitting cut out fuses.
How do you establish if a cut out is operating hot? Do you check the fuse carrier and cut out for signs of physical damage,correct fuse rating and terminal tightness?
How do you approach metal clad cut outs which may contain asbestos?
Does your liability insurance cover this operation, should there be a cut out fire this will be investigated by the DNO.
How do you re-seal the cut out to prevent that curious child that was watching you earlier removing the fuse and placing their fingers in the cut out?
By venturing on the “other side” you are leaving the realms of 7671 and getting involved in Mocopa and DNO rulebooks, it is strange that when a DIYer generally asks for advice on these forums the first recommendation tends to be “get an electrician in” so in this case I would advise getting the DNO or MOP in and get a DP isolator fitted prior to your visit.
 
Yes of course that's the textbook way of doing things but in my experience trying to organise this with the DNO is a nightmare,even when you get some sense at the other end of the line the timescales given are ridiculous, so why not offer competent electricians a little training with a test if deemed necessary then give authorisation ?
 
stevels4 said:
Cut Out fuse removal is classified as a Network Switching Operation and therefore should only be carried out by personnel trained and authorised to do so.
Do you have the correct PPE for removing and refitting cut out fuses.
How do you establish if a cut out is operating hot? Do you check the fuse carrier and cut out for signs of physical damage,correct fuse rating and terminal tightness?
How do you approach metal clad cut outs which may contain asbestos?
Does your liability insurance cover this operation, should there be a cut out fire this will be investigated by the DNO.
How do you re-seal the cut out to prevent that curious child that was watching you earlier removing the fuse and placing their fingers in the cut out?
By venturing on the “other side” you are leaving the realms of 7671 and getting involved in Mocopa and DNO rulebooks, it is strange that when a DIYer generally asks for advice on these forums the first recommendation tends to be “get an electrician in” so in this case I would advise getting the DNO or MOP in and get a DP isolator fitted prior to your visit.
Click to expand...

In the ideal world yes that is the way Steve. Not always entirely feasible in reality though.

As a slight aside you question whether the typical sparks liability cover would include risks associated with the cut out. I would hazard a guess not, partly due to insurers being slippery so and so's, and partly due to not being 'trained up' in this area... But then again am I to presume my indemnity insurance covers me for the first six items on an EICRs inspections.... As I understand it these items are not within the scope of 7671...yet there they are in the model forms...
I am in no way having a go, just curious as to yours and others take on this.
 
I love all the debates but if i come across a smart meter i just remove the load from the supply, cut the tails and then tape over the ends, when ready i strip the tails and terminate into 100Amp D/P block or new consumer unit and away we go...
All the debates of removing/tampering of seals, working live etc etc
After working with electrics for around 30 years there is ways we should do things and ways we just get on with it.
 
Totally agree with Stevels4, stick to what you know. If you are not lv authorised then you should not be messing with the the dno's system, whether you think you are capable or not. Having said that I still don't think that dnos are being awkward, as I have said before it was a regular job for me to isolate an installation for the sparks, sometimes calling back later in the day to re-connect, and there was no charge as far as I know. That was with ENWL. Of course, you can always just take off the meter terminal cover and drop the tails out, nothing to do with dno then!
 
Percyprod said:
Totally agree with Stevels4, stick to what you know. If you are not lv authorised then you should not be messing with the the dno's system, whether you think you are capable or not. Having said that I still don't think that dnos are being awkward, as I have said before it was a regular job for me to isolate an installation for the sparks, sometimes calling back later in the day to re-connect, and there was no charge as far as I know. That was with ENWL. Of course, you can always just take off the meter terminal cover and drop the tails out, nothing to do with dno then!
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But then it does become something to do with the MOP with no seal on the meter, routine safety checks are carried out on meter installations and a missing seal could result in Revenue Protection becoming involved. Worse still it would result in an audit fail for the meter technician.
 
ashrow said:
I love all the debates but if i come across a smart meter i just remove the load from the supply, cut the tails and then tape over the ends, when ready i strip the tails and terminate into 100Amp D/P block or new consumer unit and away we go...
All the debates of removing/tampering of seals, working live etc etc
After working with electrics for around 30 years there is ways we should do things and ways we just get on with it.
Click to expand...
So live working with no PPE......interesting.
 
stevels4 said:
So live working with no PPE......interesting.
Click to expand...

It used to be that the electrician was able, competent and used to working with electricity,he was expected to and was often experienced working live

It now seems that whole emphasis is on personal protection after you set the bomb off:oops:

I suppose given the whole H+S obsession that permeates society, it is an expected response that the majority would agree with
 
stevels4 said:
But then it does become something to do with the MOP with no seal on the meter, routine safety checks are carried out on meter installations and a missing seal could result in Revenue Protection becoming involved. Worse still it would result in an audit fail for the meter technician.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is a good idea to befriend your local DNO guys when out and about. They are good guys generally I have found and have given me a few seals to reseal a meter after I have finished working on the tails. I asked them about this subject and they told me that they are always attending sites and finding missing seals but it is too much hassle to report. They just reseal along with any other work they are there for and then away they go.
 
Gavin John Hyde said:
I have had 3 smart meters as i switch every year for the best deal. the first barely got a signal and i had to manually give them readings still, the second meter was eon, i switched to npower so it stopped working and resorted to a dumb status, start of last year i switched back to eon due to the discounts and promo's. the meter that was once an eon meter could no longer be read by them having somehow lost its smart features!?? they could manually call it to get a reading but it would no longer auto send data. so they came out and fitted a new smart meter. I recently switched to edf who then proceeded to fit another smart meter! none had an isolation switch you could operate!
Click to expand...
I just bypass the meter every so often and create my own "discount" tariff, saves all the faffing around.
 
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