The great pat testing scam

[davie spark]

I would have fully explained this scam to the authorities if I was you purely from the point of view of 'it's the principle of the fact that they are getting away with this scam'. Having said that I would also have to personally consider that I myself could be contributing to the death of a child by NOT reporting these electrical impersonators. NAME AND SHAME THEM NOW.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Davie spark...if you are referring to the OP...I did report my findings to the school via the maintenance caretaker guys,and I understand some action was taken while they were still on site.As the pat testing is nothing to do with me I was cautious not to blunder in and upset the wrong people,with possible consequences to the regular work we do get at the school....It could be seen as sour grapes due to the fact that someone else was awarded the contract. But I am certain that the school would not pay the cost of a proper pat test every year,there are many thousands of appliances,and the cost would be astronomical,this is why we dont even get asked anymore and why they will always just get a stickering only job.

 

[UNG]

Hi I give 2 quotes one is for a full itemized list of all equipment with serial numbers and make and model fuse size and if changed what was one in it and any other repairs done and a certificate for each item.

Or a certificate just for all items tested with no full details done

But I am certain that the school would not pay the cost of a proper pat test every year,there are many thousands of appliances,and the cost would be astronomical,this is why we dont even get asked anymore and why they will always just get a stickering only job.

I think these two comments show both sides of PAT testing, cost seems to be the priority over a proper job and those authorising the work in most cases seem to be ignorant of their responsibility under the relevant legislation yet the companies carrying out PAT testing offer no, little or poor advice to prospective customers as to what the legislation requires or the possible penalties when something goes wrong. It would make an interesting court case if a fatality occurred as to where the duty of care lay as ignorance is not a defence and who would end up with the fine or imprisonment for failing to meet the requirements of the legislation or providing a sub standard PAT testing service

 

[davie spark]

I wasn't going to reply in a thread again in this forum as there are one or two people in this forum who get upset with the 'advice' I post. They seem to think that over-compliance with B.S. 7671 is something to be frowned upon even when a safer installation is the outcome. I can understand where you're coming from and to be given a contract for 'stickying only' is a contract for disaster if they are not as you say doing the actual testing.

 

[dingledong]

but this is the same in all jobs even electrical . where people get the job as they are the cheapest even electricians i know of two er electrical people who could rewire a house no earths at all no proper ring just bodged, but it all worked the customer was happy as the job was cheap and everything was working !!!!

 

[oldtimer]

Dave I am like you want to do the job right but in this current environment the people who work for the local councils in education are bitching about the cuts on their gold plated pensions that you and I as taxpayers have been paying for and they are now being instructed that there will be a crackdown on the amount of sickies they take even though it was the norm to get yourself off for another 2-3 wekks a year so right now they are in a big sulk plus no one will put there head up above the paripit when they know full well things are not right

 

[davie spark]

Dave I am like you want to do the job right but in this current environment the people who work for the local councils in education are bitching about the cuts on their gold plated pensions that you and I as taxpayers have been paying for and they are now being instructed that there will be a crackdown on the amount of sickies they take even though it was the norm to get yourself off for another 2-3 wekks a year so right now they are in a big sulk plus no one will put there head up above the paripit when they know full well things are not right

You are a bitter oldtimer aren't you? Let me tell you something, First of all, the teacher's pension fund was 'robbed' by Thatcher to the tune of £40 million to fund tory election campaigns, you will remember being an 'oldtimer' that Robert Maxwell did the same thing and was castigated by Thatcher and her cabinet of legal highwaymen to such an extent that he couldn't take it and committed suicide, if only Thatcher had the same level of remorse and done herself in for the sake of the country. The teacher's pension is index linked to keep up with inflation which is sensible and logical. The teacher's pension funds with started in 1923 currently has £46.3 BILLION more than what's been paid out since 1923 so it has a massive surplus and is not in danger of running out. Now the reason YOU are moaning about teacher's pensions (which incidentaly has absolutely nothing to do with this PATtesting thread, so I don't know why you mentioned it in here, you're in the wrong forum), is because you may have or have had a pension which was not index linked. When the teacher's pension which is compulsory, was conceived teachers and lecturer's were a respected part of society and rightly looked after by the government of the time in terms of pensions. Just because you didn't have or don't have a decent pension is not the fault of teachers. It is more likely to have been a non index linked pension system adopted by your employer and by being non index linked means his payments to you would ALWAYS be minimal and guess what, 99.9% of employers of comanies are........yes you've guessed it, Tories. I really surprised that an 'oldtimer' chooses to ignore the damage caused by previous tory goverments and decides to slate teachers, your priorities are all wrong. The tories are attempting to convince the majority of the electorate that teachers are bad people and when the tide turns against the teachers the tories will rob the pension funds again. It time people in the U.K. woke up to the fact that ANY tory's sole purpose is to rob and destroy the working class and by definition the ordinary hard working man in the street. Don't forget that this is a tory party that says the U.K. has a massive financial deficit which taxpayers must foot the bill for. If that's true then WHY for example have we given £7 billion to Eire, £500 million to greedyincompetent bankers yet again this year and £40 billion to help keep the Euro afloat? Why are these supposedly 'affordable' amounts of money not being used to pay this deficit off? I'll tell you why, there's no deficit, this country is relatively prosperous and the tories want the money for themselves. They pass laws for everything under the sun which helps feed our money into their own personally owned companies and government coffers to fund themselves. Enough said.

 

[davie spark]

I should have added to the last post, the stuff I've highlighted in RED which is 'oldtimer's comments' is crap, the very large majority of teacher's and lecturer's do not take a large amount of 'sickies'. Teacher's pensions are not 'gold plated', bankers and MPs pensions are 'gold plated' and they still get them for gross incompetence. Finally, as for people i.e. teacher's 'sulking'. I'm afraid is blatently obvious that it's you who sulking regarding the non pension you have.

 

[oldtimer]

Well Dave i am glad you got your venom out but I seen this mentality first hand I failed to mention the firefighters who got a deal that they could go to bed on a nightshift and run as they put it a wee business on their days off or the guy who used to live next door and self certified himself every 13 weeks as he also had a taxi business now I am not say they were all at it but there has been a crackdown on sickies not because they have been persecuted but because they had the highest levels of sickies across the board so come off it this is real life we are talking about here and as for me being Bitter well lets just say I am calling a shovel a spade here sadly if the last crowd ie Labour had got this situation under control we would not be having this conversation as they put it public workers are on a lower wage but get a good pension but move on 13 years and their conditions are the same or even better than the private sector and now well I dont blame them for screaming their heads off and I suspect that you have a toe dipped in that pool somewhere but like the story with the golden goose to little to late yes they have had no pay rise for 2 years but wake up neither has anybody else so think on here in Ireland, Spain ,Portugal all public sector workers have had no pay rise for 3 years and between a 15%-20% pay cut Mind you its your opinion and I respect that but I have lived in the real world I will retire on what I retire on and I will not be bitter because someone has a better pension why ? because thats the cards life deals so hang on to your hat because if the Euro zone does implode the same public workers screaming their heads off will be just as happy to agree with a 20% paycut just to keep their jobs

 

[alarm man]

ive had to take a days holiday for the 30th as the kids are off,angry! not at all,you cant just change peoples pensions to suit while sitting on a great one yourself,so while it doesnt affect me directly i support their action..

 

[netblindpaul]

I have just trawled through this.

Those who are not testing to a know and accepted industry CoP will find themselves the wrong side of the dock if something goes wrong.

Those who employ them will be in the next room in the same situation.

There is a statute law responsibility for clients to select competent contractors, selection on price is not an option.
There have been successful prosecutions under statute law on this point, and there have been successful common law prosecutions on the same principal of law.

 

[jaresquire]

Whilst I've made light of NBPs weilding of The Law he is correct. I can't see where the grey area is with PAT, the COP is easy to read with pretty pictures, the C&G exam is simples.

 

[UNG]

You are a bitter oldtimer aren't you? Let me tell you something, First of all, the teacher's pension fund was 'robbed' by Thatcher to the tune of £40 million to fund tory election campaigns, you will remember being an 'oldtimer' that Robert Maxwell did the same thing and was castigated by Thatcher and her cabinet of legal highwaymen to such an extent that he couldn't take it and committed suicide, if only Thatcher had the same level of remorse and done herself in for the sake of the country. The teacher's pension is index linked to keep up with inflation which is sensible and logical. The teacher's pension funds with started in 1923 currently has £46.3 BILLION more than what's been paid out since 1923 so it has a massive surplus and is not in danger of running out. Now the reason YOU are moaning about teacher's pensions (which incidentaly has absolutely nothing to do with this PATtesting thread, so I don't know why you mentioned it in here, you're in the wrong forum), is because you may have or have had a pension which was not index linked. When the teacher's pension which is compulsory, was conceived teachers and lecturer's were a respected part of society and rightly looked after by the government of the time in terms of pensions. Just because you didn't have or don't have a decent pension is not the fault of teachers. It is more likely to have been a non index linked pension system adopted by your employer and by being non index linked means his payments to you would ALWAYS be minimal and guess what, 99.9% of employers of comanies are........yes you've guessed it, Tories. I really surprised that an 'oldtimer' chooses to ignore the damage caused by previous tory goverments and decides to slate teachers, your priorities are all wrong. The tories are attempting to convince the majority of the electorate that teachers are bad people and when the tide turns against the teachers the tories will rob the pension funds again. It time people in the U.K. woke up to the fact that ANY tory's sole purpose is to rob and destroy the working class and by definition the ordinary hard working man in the street. Don't forget that this is a tory party that says the U.K. has a massive financial deficit which taxpayers must foot the bill for. If that's true then WHY for example have we given £7 billion to Eire, £500 million to greedyincompetent bankers yet again this year and £40 billion to help keep the Euro afloat? Why are these supposedly 'affordable' amounts of money not being used to pay this deficit off? I'll tell you why, there's no deficit, this country is relatively prosperous and the tories want the money for themselves. They pass laws for everything under the sun which helps feed our money into their own personally owned companies and government coffers to fund themselves. Enough said.

Strange!!! How is it you seem to miss out Labours achievements of the late 1970's and then the achievements of Blair and Clown between 97 and 2010. In the late 70's with wage restraint we worked without a decent pay rise for years. In the last term they robbed private pensions doing it year on year and also want tax when it's paid out, how many times can you tax something before it's worthless, coupled with Clowns fiscal ( put interest rates up till the mortgage is not affordable) policy and the bankers greed they crashed the banks and made many homeless in the process so Labour are not exactly whiter than white

I have just trawled through this. Those who are not testing to a know and accepted industry CoP will find themselves the wrong side of the dock if something goes wrong. Those who employ them will be in the next room in the same situation. There is a statute law responsibility for clients to select competent contractors, selection on price is not an option. There have been successful prosecutions under statute law on this point, and there have been successful common law prosecutions on the same principal of law.

Back on topic the whole PAT testing industry will come under scrutiny sooner or later as the quality of what is being sold in most cases is not fit for purpose and will end in somebody being seriously or fatally injured. It is unfortunate that those procuring the PAT testing are not usually sufficiently skilled to know whether they are getting the work done correctly and are not fully aware of their responsibility yet will be liable if someone is injured. Generally I am against regulation but this is one area that does need it, may be it would be a good one for rogue traders or one of the other consumer shows to look into

 

[IQ Electrical]

Strange!!! How is it you seem to miss out Labours achievements of the late 1970's and then the achievements of Blair and Clown between 97 and 2010. In the late 70's with wage restraint we worked without a decent pay rise for years. In the last term they robbed private pensions doing it year on year and also want tax when it's paid out, how many times can you tax something before it's worthless, coupled with Clowns fiscal ( put interest rates up till the mortgage is not affordable) policy and the bankers greed they crashed the banks and made many homeless in the process so Labour are not exactly whiter than white



Back on topic the whole PAT testing industry will come under scrutiny sooner or later as the quality of what is being sold in most cases is not fit for purpose and will end in somebody being seriously or fatally injured. It is unfortunate that those procuring the PAT testing are not usually sufficiently skilled to know whether they are getting the work done correctly and are not fully aware of their responsibility yet will be liable if someone is injured. Generally I am against regulation but this is one area that does need it, may be it would be a good one for rogue traders or one of the other consumer shows to look into

Well said UNG (both paragraphs).

The whole inspection business is heading in the wrong direction, whether it's PAT or Periodic.

The average client has no idea of his/her responsibility in terms of selection of a competent contractor.

I'd be firmly in favour of any legislation/campaign that would illustrate and reinforce the responsibilities of a duty holder but I don't anticipate it happening soon!

Until then, we'll just continue hearing of the 50p PAT and the garbage 'Google Earth' Periodic Inspection Reports.....

 

[davie spark]

Well Dave i am glad you got your venom out but I seen this mentality first hand I failed to mention the firefighters who got a deal that they could go to bed on a nightshift and run as they put it a wee business on their days off or the guy who used to live next door and self certified himself every 13 weeks as he also had a taxi business now I am not say they were all at it but there has been a crackdown on sickies not because they have been persecuted but because they had the highest levels of sickies across the board so come off it this is real life we are talking about here and as for me being Bitter well lets just say I am calling a shovel a spade here sadly if the last crowd ie Labour had got this situation under control we would not be having this conversation as they put it public workers are on a lower wage but get a good pension but move on 13 years and their conditions are the same or even better than the private sector and now well I dont blame them for screaming their heads off and I suspect that you have a toe dipped in that pool somewhere but like the story with the golden goose to little to late yes they have had no pay rise for 2 years but wake up neither has anybody else so think on here in Ireland, Spain ,Portugal all public sector workers have had no pay rise for 3 years and between a 15%-20% pay cut Mind you its your opinion and I respect that but I have lived in the real world I will retire on what I retire on and I will not be bitter because someone has a better pension why ? because thats the cards life deals so hang on to your hat because if the Euro zone does implode the same public workers screaming their heads off will be just as happy to agree with a 20% paycut just to keep their jobs

Oldtimer, make your mind up please, you're now talking about firefighters but in your last post you were specifically targeting people in education and mentioned the 'long' holidays they get which by inference is teachers and lecturers. I'm telling you, because I work in exactly that field, that 99.9% of teachers and lecturer's DO NOT have abnormal absenteeism rates. As for firefighters, if their bosses can't keep them occupied during a shift it's their bosses fault not the firefighters fault and I might add here that if their bosses were as competent as their salaries suggest they are we would not be reading about the death of a woman who was trapped down a well/large hole or whatever it was for eight whole hours whilst these same bosses discussed health and safety. Also you may like to consider that one of these 'no-good' fire fighters was actually down the hole with her for six hours comforting her while his absurdly incompetent superiors debated what to do. If was deemed safe enough fhe tor one firefighter to go down but apparently not safe enough to rescue her, as I said in my last post, get real. As for your last sentence above, in real terms, most public sector workers have already suffered massive paycuts over the last 4/5/ years because they've been denied any increase in wages in that time. What about you? If you are in employment when did you last get a pay increase?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Welcome back Davie the place as not been the same without you, I'm glad to see that you have given me a mention in a previous post.

 

[davie spark]

Please unsubscribe me from this forum, i've tried to do so without success.

 

[UNG]

As for your last sentence above, in real terms, most public sector workers have already suffered massive paycuts over the last 4/5/ years because they've been denied any increase in wages in that time. What about you? If you are in employment when did you last get a pay increase?

A pay rise for the self employed usually working longer and harder than the previous year and if any of the extra money is left after all the schemes, public sector pensions and hangers on are paid then you have a pay rise, Simples

Please unsubscribe me from this forum, i've tried to do so without success.

Obviously the heat on the forum was too much so he's left the room

 

[Guest123]

Please unsubscribe me from this forum, i've tried to do so without success.

Request Granted.

 

[netblindpaul]

One last comment, I wish that people would use the term Engineer correctly.

Some of us have studied long & hard for our qualifications, and I have spent more time studying at under & post graduate level than that required for a Medical Doctorate.

I have had my qualifications, experience and competence independently assessed by strangers to get my professional recognition.

Yet someone who has done 1/2 a days training can title themselves Engineer.

One of the best things that Europe could ever do is to make the title Engineer protected in law across Europe as it is in some European countries and other countries around the world.

Please if you are not registered as a Professional Engineer, don't try to be something you are not, because you will be found out oh so easily and this will just discredit yourself and your employer.