Thermo dynamics for hot water that runs off atmosphere

[jason121]

Vegelen should of been £10000 for typical house

 

[The Solar King]

Domestic RHI will be deemed, not metered, unless the proposals in the Consultation have radically changed. See items 175 to 182 in Consultation document.

 

[jason121]

Are you installing the valves for the RHPP solarking

 

[The Solar King]

I don't install heat pumps at this time, but did quite a bit of work with my trade body on the Domestic RHI consultation, so am familiar with its contents. This was principally for ST, but a great deal of it applies to all technologies including a uniform method of heat measurement/deeming.

 

[jason121]

Like i said 16kw heat pump, 10kw at -4 typical house 8.3kw heat load 13000kwh
looking around £10000 in RHI at the high rate of 11.5 pence.

Yes or no

 

[jason121]

I had to laugh
I have already installed a renewable heating system in my home. Will I be able
to claim support from the RHI?
The current proposals are that provided
your system was commissioned on or after the 15th July 2009 and it meets all the
other eligibility criteria for RHI, then it should be eligible for support.
However, if you have already received RHPP or other government support then the
amount received will be taken into account when calculating your RHI
payments.
I have already received RHPP for a
renewable heating system in my home. Will I still be able to claim RHI when it
starts?
The current proposals are that provided your system meets the
other eligibility criteria then it will be eligible for RHI support. However,
the money you received from the RHPP will be taken into account when calculating
your RHI payments.

For example, if you received £850 RHPP towards the cost of your heat pump and
the RHI calculations suggest you are due £5,000 RHI over the life of the system,
then you will be paid £4,150 from the RHI to bring the total payment, including
RHPP, up to £5,000.

What are the tariffs going to be for the
domestic RHI?
Final tariffs have not been decided, but indicative ranges
have been suggested:

• biomass boilers: 5.2 to 8.7 p/kWh
  
• ground source heat pumps: 12.5 to 17.3 p/kWh
  
• air to water heat pumps: 6.9 to 11.5 p/kWh
  
• solar water heating: 17.3 p/kWh

These tariffs will be paid for seven years for every kilowatt hour of heat
that is deemed to be produced and used.

Will I have to insulate my home in order
to be eligible for RHI payments for a renewable heating system?
The
current proposal is that to be eligible for RHI support, applicants must have a
Green Deal Advice Report for the property, and they must have installed all of
the proposed heat saving measures in the report that are fully fundable under
the Green Deal (known as Green Tick measures) with the exception of solid wall
insulation. For example, if the report recommends loft insulation, solid wall
insulation, draught-proofing and fitting low energy light bulbs, then the
householder will have to fit the loft insulation and the draught-proofing before
they can claim RHI.

How will payments be calculated for the
RHI?
The current proposals are that in most cases, the useful annual
output of the heating system will be deemed (estimated) in kilowatt hours per
year. The owner of the system will then be paid the relevant tariff for each
kilowatt hour (kWh) for the first seven years. For example, if the deemed
heating requirement is 15,000 kWh per year, and the tariff is 6 p/kWh, then the
householder will receive 15,000 x 6 pence per year = £900 per year, or £6,300 in
total.

 

[TedM]

The one thing missed from that list is that DECC are proposing that if a fossil heating system is kept as back-up then deeming is not allowed and a heat meter must be fitted to the new system. (In the first RHI consultation DECC were saying that any existing fossil heating system had to be removed.) RHI payments are then paid based on the meter readings but also the total will be capped at whatever the deemed figure is. This doesn't apply to solar thermal DHW.

The tariffs are set to provide a return in 7 years based on 20 years heat demand. This, of course, will lead to the situation where people install a system and benefit from the RHI and then sell-up after 7 years at which point the new occupant will have the increased costs of fuel to meet with no RHI payments to offset that at all. I would hope that DECC forsee this and put something in the final RHI to cope with it.

 

[Vegelen]

DECC were saying that any existing fossil heating system had to be removed.

So you install a Thermodynamic heating system to heat your home, which will be most likely to fail or become ineffectual (expensive to run) in winter when you most need heat, removing any backup fossil fuel system on the insistance of DECC to heat your home in winter should it go belly up, in the quest for a short term 7 year payment.

Is this an example of a "gambling guineapig" following a blind, foolish man just because he's got lots of money hanging out of his back pocket, in the quest for short term gain?

My crystal ball is showing me lots of people, complaining about increased electricity bills in cold winters, expensive compressor repairs, high long term maintenance costs,
Lawyers rubbing their hands with glee for the next mis selling scandal.

 

[SolarRoofSols]

RHI isn't something I have had to look into before, but now the occasion arises that I need to gen up on it and this thread has been useful.

Am I right in thinking that RHI for commercial properties isn't available yet and will there even be one? Will the green tick measures also be applied?

 

[The Solar King]

The tariffs are set to provide a return in 7 years based on 20 years heat demand. This, of course, will lead to the situation where people install a system and benefit from the RHI and then sell-up after 7 years at which point the new occupant will have the increased costs of fuel to meet with no RHI payments to offset that at all. I would hope that DECC forsee this and put something in the final RHI to cope with it.

The original aspiration for the domestic RHI was full capital cost recovery within the seven year period. As long as the COP/SPF is high enough to compensate for the higher cost of electricity in relation to the displaced fuel, after seven years, there are only the maintenance costs to consider.

If it is an inefficient, unreliable heat pump, you could be worse off. However, if it has a high COP/SPF and is reliable, you could be quids in purchasing the house.

It will all depend on the level at which tariffs are set and the deeming mechanism.

 

[The Solar King]

Commercial RHI almost a year old, but has not been a great success. It is being reviewed to see what can be done to improve take up.

Domestic RHI likey to be conditional on completed green ticks except solid wall insulation.

 

[Vegelen]

you could be quids in purchasing the house.

"Or quids out".

I am not against this technology per se.
I am against companies releasing expensive, "work in progress technologies" onto the UK market, with bold claims, customers actually being "unofficial guinea pigs" attracted to short term financial carrots - dangled in front of them, for short term gains at the expense of potentially long term liabilities.
People installing these systems should install them alongside fossil fuel back up systems until they are confident that they work reliably, through successive winters without massive increases in electricity bills or they may find they have made a very large monumental mistake - the purveyors of these systems long gone into the hills.

 

[Gavin A]

"Or quids out".

I am not against this technology per se.
I am against companies releasing expensive, "work in progress technologies" onto the UK market, with bold claims, customers actually being "unofficial guinea pigs" attracted to short term financial carrots - dangled in front of them, for short term gains at the expense of potentially long term liabilities.
People installing these systems should install them alongside fossil fuel back up systems until they are confident that they work reliably, through successive winters without massive increases in electricity bills or they may find they have made a very large monumental mistake - the purveyors of these systems long gone into the hills.

what systems do you have in mind?

About the only systems that really fit that bill are exhaust air heatpumps where there actual maximum output is a set figure related to the maximum energy that can be extracted from the outgoing air, though this scientific factoid seems to have passed most UK designers / installers / policy makers by who seem to view them as some mysterious magic box capable of supplying whatever heat might be required.

I suppose thermodynamic panels are a bit more difficult to predict the average COP for, and this in turn probably depends a lot on usage patterns and installation methods, but they're hardly work in progress technoogies (actually IMO neither are, it's just that the competence level of UK heating installers / designers is woeful compared to elsewhere, so they keep being installed in totally inappropriate situations that result in the immersion providing most of the heating).

 

[Renewables NW]

I was also sceptical about the training and have been curious about this product for a while, so I decided to go to their training day. I gave them a run for their money but as it happens the guy giving the presentation was very knowledgeable and they clearly have a very good product. They don’t have MCS yet but it is going through and I don’t see any reason they won’t get it. The product is a little pricy but it is far better than thermodynamics or any of the other hot water heat pumps that are on the market. I am fitting one in my house next week to test it for myself to see if it really is as good as it seems.

 

[Worcester]

I was also sceptical about the training and have been curious about this product for a while, so I decided to go to their training day. I gave them a run for their money but as it happens the guy giving the presentation was very knowledgeable and they clearly have a very good product. They don’t have MCS yet but it is going through and I don’t see any reason they won’t get it. The product is a little pricy but it is far better than thermodynamics or any of the other hot water heat pumps that are on the market. I am fitting one in my house next week to test it for myself to see if it really is as good as it seems.

Confused ... So what product are YOU talking about?

 

[Renewables NW]

I was referring to the Austria Email hot water heat pump comments

 

[Dan]

Don't mind me while I bump some threads in the solar PV forum. If they're not current or applicable topics, just ignore the threads; they'll drop off the page. If they are, feel free to chip in and chat solar stuff in the solar panels forum.