Thermo dynamics for hot water that runs off atmosphere

[Gavin A]

Do you mean Thermodynamic Laws formulated by the French physicist Carnot theories?

These laws?

More specifically, the First Law encompasses several principles:

• The law of conservation of energy.

This states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

You can raise the temperature of a gas in a fixed volume via a compressor, but you can't actually create energy itself, that has to come from somewhere in the first place, namely the panel extracting heat energy from the air and sun.

 

[jason121]

what would be the temp from the expansion valve and suction line

 

[peteheat]

what would be the temp from the expansion valve and suction line

They did manage to con their way onto the Irish grant scheme for renewables, at the time the grant for heat pumps was much higher than that for solar.

So we investigated why not call it what it was and qualify for the higher grant?

The consultants we hired came back with a report that basically said the COP was too low to qualify which meant the data supplied to us by the manufacturer was not "Complete" or inaccurate.

The system will work by absorbing any heat around the panel (top and back) which is why some claim the panel is actually twice it's size.

Too much smoke and mirrors being used for our liking so we took the consultants advice and left them, we do however advertise them simply because they are great for bringing visitors to our web site, we also price them for all to see at less than €5,000.00 including VAT supplied and fitted using a stainless steel cylinder (not mild steel) and with a coil for a second heat source.

If we were to sell them at that price we would be making a respectable profit not just a days pay.

 

[SibertSolar]

Always interesting to see such thorough discussions on new technologies, very interesting thread. Just spotted that Ecoskies are offering training courses on thermodynamic "solar" panels.....have they provided any input here as yet? According to their article in the current REI magazine, although "installers will need an F-Gas engineer to commission the system, the vast majority of work, once understood, can be carried out by any solar thermal installer already qualified to a standard recognised by MCS"

 

[Vegelen]

It automatically switches off the heat pump at 1 > 2c and reverts to the immersion.

Thus, Thermodynamic Solar Panels are currently very expensive, take an unrealistic

time to economically pay back and during periods of extreme cold weather,

UK householders will be saddelled with increased electric bills to heat their water.

 

[The Solar King]

We are still going round in circles on this. The theory of their working has been ably shown and discussed in this thread. We are still back to speculation as to their likely performance with contributors in one camp or the other. Things are still coming up that are already covered in the letters from MCS. The controls of the system is one of them.

This is getting to be like QI, where the answer to the question is 'nobody knows'. I feel like Alan Davis with a score of minus 46!

 

[Gavin A]

Thus, Thermodynamic Solar Panels are currently very expensive, take an unrealistic

time to economically pay back and during periods of extreme cold weather,

UK householders will be saddelled with increased electric bills to heat their water.

This is probably true for anyone on mains gas. It's definitely not true for anyone who's on full electric heating with no gas option, which is several hundred thousand households in the country. It's not a one size fits all solution, but then practically nothing is - it should however have a valid place in the market and could save a significant minority of people a significant amount of money.

 

[Gavin A]

The consultants we hired came back with a report that basically said the COP was too low to qualify which meant the data supplied to us by the manufacturer was not "Complete" or inaccurate.

did the consultants actually take measurements themselves for this report, or attempt to calculate the COP?

 

[Gavin A]

We are still going round in circles on this. The theory of their working has been ably shown and discussed in this thread. We are still back to speculation as to their likely performance with contributors in one camp or the other. Things are still coming up that are already covered in the letters from MCS. The controls of the system is one of them.

This is getting to be like QI, where the answer to the question is 'nobody knows'. I feel like Alan Davis with a score of minus 46!

indeed. I'm wondering if our finances will stretch to buying a unit we can set up to test through this winter.

 

[Vegelen]

Excerpts From A Consumer Focus Report: Off Gas Consumers

- "21 million homes in Britain are heated by mains gas (83 per cent of all homes): 84 per cent in England, 76 per cent in Scotland and 79 per cent in Wales."

- "2.3 million homes in Britain are heated by electricity (9.3 per cent), 1.1 million (4.4 per cent) by heating oil, 310,000 (1.2 per cent) by solid fuel and 170,000 (0.7 per cent) by LPG. In total, 3.9 million homes in Britain rely on other heating fuels to mains gas to heat their homes."

- "Electricity is the second most common heating fuel after gas in England and Scotland, whereas heating oil is the second most common in Wales. However, the largest number of heating oil consumers (828,000) live in England, reflecting its larger population."

 

[Gavin A]

odd, I thought it was less than that from the report I was looking at the other day, but I was trying to read it off a graph.

so 2.3 million homes heated by electricity...

 

[Vegelen]

odd, I thought it was less than that from the report I was looking at the other day, but I was trying to read it off a graph. So 2.3 million homes heated by electricity...

Your report may be more accurate, the information came from an online Consumer focus report.

If the data is accurate it illustrates the potential market for Thermodynamic Solar Panels.

Gavin, How much does an atypical electrically heated home without gas typically pay per annum in electricity bills?

 

[Gavin A]

I don't know, and don't really have the time to work it out. I'd not be charging £5k for a single panel water heating only system though, and I'm not sure what the cost would be of a full heating system.

A lot of all electric houses probably just have electric showers which would alter things, and most will be on economy 7, which further complicates the calculations.

 

[peteheat]

did the consultants actually take measurements themselves for this report, or attempt to calculate the COP?

Yes they did a full evaluation which did cost a lot of money but nothing even close to trying to defend a case in court from a consumer looking for their money back plus compensation.

Very few if any will save money using the system because there are more issues at large than the warped performance figures.

That said the theory is good and there is a better chance of a return from the larger commercial system however it must be used bivalent instead of the stand alone recommended by the manufacturer.

 

[The Solar King]

indeed. I'm wondering if our finances will stretch to buying a unit we can set up to test through this winter.

One of the things that has made me so cross about the whole episode is you should not have to. There should be no Caveat Emptor with regard to this.

 

[peteheat]

My experience of dealing with European manufacturers would frighten most people, they can supply all the test certificates that make the product appear perfect for the job, the truth is many of them are using the customer / supplier as their real world research labs.

Trust none of them if you want to keep your reputation intact.

 

[Berneray]

SolarKing are now advertising and marketing this system. They are advertising for sales staff to sell it via leads generated by door knockers and cold calling...

Thermodynamic water heater system, Heat pump mechanism - AIR MACHT

Looks like thermodynamics without the panel (s). Worth having a look at their online calculator which when I did it for my own house claimed I'd get my money back in 3.9 years....

 

[Vegelen]

SolarKing are now advertising and marketing this system. They are advertising for sales staff to sell it via leads generated by door knockers and cold calling...

Thermodynamic water heater system,*Heat pump mechanism - AIR MACHT

Looks like thermodynamics without the panel (s). Worth having a look at their online calculator which when I did it for my own house claimed I'd get my money back in 3.9 years....

I am selling gold for £10000 per Kilogram for anyone interested in an alternative investment with a much quicker payback.*(1)


(1) Fools gold. Gold For Fools, Instant 300% payback.

 

[The Solar King]

Please note, yet again, Solar King are nothing to do with me or my company Solar Kingdom Ltd. Solar King IS NOT a registered company name. My company SOLAR KINGDOM LTD registered in Scotland. I blog etc as the Solar King. These people are Solarcrown UK Ltd T/A Solarking UK Registered address: Southport Road, Eccleston, Chorley, Lancashire PR7 6E

You may draw your own conclusions as to why I would choose to post this.

With regard to the Air Macht product it is marketed in the UK by Sonnen Macht who are based in Merseyside. I understand there has been some communication between them and MCS over its designation. Found this out when discussing a different product they are marketing called the Zypho. This is a quite interesting looking waste water heat recovery unit that fits under a shower tray.

 

[Worcester]

That's an exhaust air heat pump, been around for a while, Nibe supplied them on a number of new developments, however due to bad design, bad installation and no education of the users, they got really bad press:
NIBE REJECTS BBC VIEW OF EXHAUST AIR HEAT PUMPS - www.nibe.co.uk
BBC News - 'Efficient' heating system left families with big bills
BBC accused of missing the point on heat pump claims | News | Heating and Ventilation News