Thermo dynamics for hot water that runs off atmosphere

[jason121]

that is for an 8.66kw heat load mulitply the 13055kwh by 11.5p

 

[Gavin A]

Is that the entire heat output, or the difference between the heat produced and the electricity used to generate it?

Sorry for the 20 questions, I've not really looked into exactly how the heat pump payments will work, but these figures seem pretty high considering that for most people they'd have been needing a replacement boiler one way or another anyway.

I can understand it to an extent for GSHP as putting the ground loops in is a major undertaking, but surely an ASHP shouldn't need anything like that level of payments. IMO it certainly isn't justified on environmental grounds.

 

[FrankUK]

Can you tell me if ASHP systems running at SPF of 2.5 or less will qualify for the RHI. Designs such as High Temp systems ????

If the equipment isn't listed on this web site it won't qualify as MCS approved.

 

[FrankUK]

Has anyone looked at the figures, typical house can earn upto £15000 in the the 7 year period at the higher rate

The level of RHI hasn't been decided yet so it is impossible to calculate how much of a return you will get.

If the heatpump you buy is on the MCS approved equipment list, and it is designed and installed by an MCS registered installer, once the installation is commissioned and registered by the installer, you will be able to apply for the RHI when it is finally announced.

 

[Earthstore]

Is the problem that they still do not know how to calculate the heat generated?
How do they really calculate it? By heatpump output? If it has provision on the heatpump to measure how much heat has been generated then if there is a fault with the system, or the system has been badly installed and the heatpump has to work hard to overcome this then the RHI payments would go through the roof.
With PV/wind it is simple, you have an approved generation meter.

 

[jason121]

Old news FrankUK I know about the MCS and RHI. What i dont know, if the the SPF is lowing than 2.5 will the customer not qualify for RHI and if the systems are already installed at lower than 2.5 will the RHI be taken away from customer ???.

Read the thread I said if at high rate. Even the low rate of RHI is still a good return @ £6000 for the above

 

[jason121]

Is the problem that they still do not know how to calculate the heat generated?
How do they really calculate it? By heatpump output? If it has provision on the heatpump to measure how much heat has been generated then if there is a fault with the system, or the system has been badly installed and the heatpump has to work hard to overcome this then the RHI payments would go through the roof.
With PV/wind it is simple, you have an approved generation meter.

They will either install meters, which are being installed on systems which qualify for thr RHPP or predicated output by SAP calcs

 

[Earthstore]

They will either install meters, which are being installed on systems which qualify for thr RHPP or predicated output by SAP calcs

So was I right then?
What about all the installs that have been done since July 2009 (I think that was the qualifying date?)

 

[jason121]

Not sure. When installing ASHP, the installer should provide isolation valves for the meter to be fitted. There is a diagram on the energy trust web site explaining how.

 

[Vegelen]

Has anyone looked at the figures, typical house can earn upto £15000 in the the 7 year period at the higher rate

Now Thats What I Call Magic!
Now That's What I Call Magic - YouTube

 

[jason121]

Vegelen should of been £10000 for typical house

 

[The Solar King]

Domestic RHI will be deemed, not metered, unless the proposals in the Consultation have radically changed. See items 175 to 182 in Consultation document.

 

[jason121]

Are you installing the valves for the RHPP solarking

 

[The Solar King]

I don't install heat pumps at this time, but did quite a bit of work with my trade body on the Domestic RHI consultation, so am familiar with its contents. This was principally for ST, but a great deal of it applies to all technologies including a uniform method of heat measurement/deeming.

 

[jason121]

Like i said 16kw heat pump, 10kw at -4 typical house 8.3kw heat load 13000kwh
looking around £10000 in RHI at the high rate of 11.5 pence.

Yes or no

 

[jason121]

I had to laugh
I have already installed a renewable heating system in my home. Will I be able
to claim support from the RHI?
The current proposals are that provided
your system was commissioned on or after the 15th July 2009 and it meets all the
other eligibility criteria for RHI, then it should be eligible for support.
However, if you have already received RHPP or other government support then the
amount received will be taken into account when calculating your RHI
payments.
I have already received RHPP for a
renewable heating system in my home. Will I still be able to claim RHI when it
starts?
The current proposals are that provided your system meets the
other eligibility criteria then it will be eligible for RHI support. However,
the money you received from the RHPP will be taken into account when calculating
your RHI payments.

For example, if you received £850 RHPP towards the cost of your heat pump and
the RHI calculations suggest you are due £5,000 RHI over the life of the system,
then you will be paid £4,150 from the RHI to bring the total payment, including
RHPP, up to £5,000.

What are the tariffs going to be for the
domestic RHI?
Final tariffs have not been decided, but indicative ranges
have been suggested:

• biomass boilers: 5.2 to 8.7 p/kWh
  
• ground source heat pumps: 12.5 to 17.3 p/kWh
  
• air to water heat pumps: 6.9 to 11.5 p/kWh
  
• solar water heating: 17.3 p/kWh

These tariffs will be paid for seven years for every kilowatt hour of heat
that is deemed to be produced and used.

Will I have to insulate my home in order
to be eligible for RHI payments for a renewable heating system?
The
current proposal is that to be eligible for RHI support, applicants must have a
Green Deal Advice Report for the property, and they must have installed all of
the proposed heat saving measures in the report that are fully fundable under
the Green Deal (known as Green Tick measures) with the exception of solid wall
insulation. For example, if the report recommends loft insulation, solid wall
insulation, draught-proofing and fitting low energy light bulbs, then the
householder will have to fit the loft insulation and the draught-proofing before
they can claim RHI.

How will payments be calculated for the
RHI?
The current proposals are that in most cases, the useful annual
output of the heating system will be deemed (estimated) in kilowatt hours per
year. The owner of the system will then be paid the relevant tariff for each
kilowatt hour (kWh) for the first seven years. For example, if the deemed
heating requirement is 15,000 kWh per year, and the tariff is 6 p/kWh, then the
householder will receive 15,000 x 6 pence per year = £900 per year, or £6,300 in
total.

 

[TedM]

The one thing missed from that list is that DECC are proposing that if a fossil heating system is kept as back-up then deeming is not allowed and a heat meter must be fitted to the new system. (In the first RHI consultation DECC were saying that any existing fossil heating system had to be removed.) RHI payments are then paid based on the meter readings but also the total will be capped at whatever the deemed figure is. This doesn't apply to solar thermal DHW.

The tariffs are set to provide a return in 7 years based on 20 years heat demand. This, of course, will lead to the situation where people install a system and benefit from the RHI and then sell-up after 7 years at which point the new occupant will have the increased costs of fuel to meet with no RHI payments to offset that at all. I would hope that DECC forsee this and put something in the final RHI to cope with it.

 

[Vegelen]

DECC were saying that any existing fossil heating system had to be removed.

So you install a Thermodynamic heating system to heat your home, which will be most likely to fail or become ineffectual (expensive to run) in winter when you most need heat, removing any backup fossil fuel system on the insistance of DECC to heat your home in winter should it go belly up, in the quest for a short term 7 year payment.

Is this an example of a "gambling guineapig" following a blind, foolish man just because he's got lots of money hanging out of his back pocket, in the quest for short term gain?

My crystal ball is showing me lots of people, complaining about increased electricity bills in cold winters, expensive compressor repairs, high long term maintenance costs,
Lawyers rubbing their hands with glee for the next mis selling scandal.

 

[SolarRoofSols]

RHI isn't something I have had to look into before, but now the occasion arises that I need to gen up on it and this thread has been useful.

Am I right in thinking that RHI for commercial properties isn't available yet and will there even be one? Will the green tick measures also be applied?

 

[The Solar King]

The tariffs are set to provide a return in 7 years based on 20 years heat demand. This, of course, will lead to the situation where people install a system and benefit from the RHI and then sell-up after 7 years at which point the new occupant will have the increased costs of fuel to meet with no RHI payments to offset that at all. I would hope that DECC forsee this and put something in the final RHI to cope with it.

The original aspiration for the domestic RHI was full capital cost recovery within the seven year period. As long as the COP/SPF is high enough to compensate for the higher cost of electricity in relation to the displaced fuel, after seven years, there are only the maintenance costs to consider.

If it is an inefficient, unreliable heat pump, you could be worse off. However, if it has a high COP/SPF and is reliable, you could be quids in purchasing the house.

It will all depend on the level at which tariffs are set and the deeming mechanism.