Thermo dynamics for hot water that runs off atmosphere

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Discuss Thermo dynamics for hot water that runs off atmosphere in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

odd, I thought it was less than that from the report I was looking at the other day, but I was trying to read it off a graph.

so 2.3 million homes heated by electricity...
 
Gavin A said:
odd, I thought it was less than that from the report I was looking at the other day, but I was trying to read it off a graph. So 2.3 million homes heated by electricity...
Click to expand...

Your report may be more accurate, the information came from an online Consumer focus report.

If the data is accurate it illustrates the potential market for Thermodynamic Solar Panels.

Gavin, How much does an atypical electrically heated home without gas typically pay per annum in electricity bills?
 
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I don't know, and don't really have the time to work it out. I'd not be charging £5k for a single panel water heating only system though, and I'm not sure what the cost would be of a full heating system.

A lot of all electric houses probably just have electric showers which would alter things, and most will be on economy 7, which further complicates the calculations.
 
Gavin A said:
did the consultants actually take measurements themselves for this report, or attempt to calculate the COP?
Click to expand...

Yes they did a full evaluation which did cost a lot of money but nothing even close to trying to defend a case in court from a consumer looking for their money back plus compensation.

Very few if any will save money using the system because there are more issues at large than the warped performance figures.

That said the theory is good and there is a better chance of a return from the larger commercial system however it must be used bivalent instead of the stand alone recommended by the manufacturer.
 
My experience of dealing with European manufacturers would frighten most people, they can supply all the test certificates that make the product appear perfect for the job, the truth is many of them are using the customer / supplier as their real world research labs.

Trust none of them if you want to keep your reputation intact.
 
Berneray said:
SolarKing are now advertising and marketing this system. They are advertising for sales staff to sell it via leads generated by door knockers and cold calling...

Thermodynamic water heater system,*Heat pump mechanism - AIR MACHT

Looks like thermodynamics without the panel (s). Worth having a look at their online calculator which when I did it for my own house claimed I'd get my money back in 3.9 years....
Click to expand...

I am selling gold for £10000 per Kilogram for anyone interested in an alternative investment with a much quicker payback.*(1)


(1) Fools gold. Gold For Fools, Instant 300% payback.
 
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Please note, yet again, Solar King are nothing to do with me or my company Solar Kingdom Ltd. Solar King IS NOT a registered company name. My company SOLAR KINGDOM LTD registered in Scotland. I blog etc as the Solar King. These people are Solarcrown UK Ltd T/A Solarking UK Registered address: Southport Road, Eccleston, Chorley, Lancashire PR7 6E

You may draw your own conclusions as to why I would choose to post this.

With regard to the Air Macht product it is marketed in the UK by Sonnen Macht who are based in Merseyside. I understand there has been some communication between them and MCS over its designation. Found this out when discussing a different product they are marketing called the Zypho. This is a quite interesting looking waste water heat recovery unit that fits under a shower tray.
 
Although I have gracefully bowed out of this discussion. I see no reason why I can not provide real life facts.

A friendly competitor of mine who i was chatting with today, informed me that in the recent cold weather, a system he had been monitoring has taken 7 hours to recover a depleted 200l tank back up to 55 deg C. (from 5 deg C entering)

Steve
 
@SteveK - do you (or he) consider that good or bad?
 
peteheat said:
Yes they did a full evaluation which did cost a lot of money but nothing even close to trying to defend a case in court from a consumer looking for their money back plus compensation.

Very few if any will save money using the system because there are more issues at large than the warped performance figures.

That said the theory is good and there is a better chance of a return from the larger commercial system however it must be used bivalent instead of the stand alone recommended by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...
Do you mind me asking what methodology they used?

Did they test it with varying wind and solar input levels, or just in static air at different air temperatures?

If the latter then I'm not surprised it didn't come out too well.
 
Worcester said:
@SteveK - do you (or he) consider that good or bad?
Click to expand...

Bad enough for him to cancel a presentation to his local council he had planned, and pull out of the market.

Me?, I'm a simple refrigeration engineer and I have chosen not to express my opinion on this thread. But I will present real life facts as they become apparent.


Steve
 
Gavin A said:
Do you mind me asking what methodology they used?

Did they test it with varying wind and solar input levels, or just in static air at different air temperatures?

If the latter then I'm not surprised it didn't come out too well.
Click to expand...

The system was installed with the panel on the roof facing south, the hot water was taken from the cylinder two ways (different tests) the first using a timed release of hot water (very wasteful) to simulate domestic usage the most taken from a 280L cylinder was 100 litres at a time.

The second was using a system link which allowed it to dump the heat into their central heating system.

The entire procedure lasted over six months.
 
Today's observations on a 200l cylinder:

Ambient - 2.5 deg C
Compressor draw - 3.6 amp
Water entering - 8 deg C
Raise - 24 deg C (to 32)
Time - 90 mins

I did check today if the immersion was on during initial warm up. It wasn't.
 
steve k said:
Today's observations on a 200l cylinder:

Ambient - 2.5 deg C
Compressor draw - 3.6 amp
Water entering - 8 deg C
Raise - 24 deg C (to 32)
Time - 90 mins

I did check today if the immersion was on during initial warm up. It wasn't.
Click to expand...
I get that as being a COP of 4.3ish, depending on what the grid voltage was (figure given is for 240V / 864W / 1.3kWh electrical input, 5.58kWh heat required to heat 200l of water by 24 deg), and if that was the ampage for the entire time.

That's none too shoddy. What was the weather like?
 
I thought it would have been windy, or sunny.

obviously this would be at the point where the heat pump was operating more efficiently due to the lower output temps, and would presumably drop off the COP as the output temperature rose to 55deg, but still a COP of 4.25 at 2deg external air temp is pretty good.
 
Re: info

I have read all posts in this thread with great interest. I am about to chuck away my combi boiler and install a 400 litre thermal store to keep up with increased central heating and DHW requirements. (i am doubling the floor area of my property and adding a further bathroom). The thermal store will be heated by various sources. A mains gas boiler, a multifuel stove and also an electric heat source powered by effectively free of charge excess electricity produced by my 4kw solar PV array and diverted using an immersun unit. I could simply use an immersion heater, but thermodynamics has caught my eye. I can buy and install a single panel thermodynamic system myself for around £2000 (including F gas installation). As the electricity is 'free' and looking at the claims for thermodynamic systems i think the investment could well be worth it. Does anyone have any views on this idea, any input would be gratefully received, thanks, Michael.
 
Interesting. Can you explain further why mixing all the the forms of heating into one store.
How will you combine the thermodynmaics system into the thermal store?
Where abouts are you in East Midlands. Sorry about or the questions just interested
 
jason121 said:
Interesting. Can you explain further why mixing all the the forms of heating into one store.
How will you combine the thermodynmaics system into the thermal store?
Where abouts are you in East Midlands. Sorry about or the questions just interested
Click to expand...

I need a big thermal store as i will have 18 rads and 5 underfloor circuits and 3 bathrooms to service. I didnt want to heat it using just gas as i am trying to keep running costs down. I have a steady supply of free wood for the multifuel stove (winter) and the free surplus from the PV (summer) to this end. If i use thermodynamics it will be via an indirect coil in the bottom of the thermal store (one usually used for solar thermal). The store needs to be 75C at the top, the bottom will run cooler as it is where the return pipes from the heating circuits come back in. I'm hoping that the advertised 55C will work at the bottom of the store....... I am based near Ashbourne, Derbys.
 
400 litre thermal store is way too small. This will be little more than buffer tank. This needs to be correctly sized for the job in hand and the range of heat inputs. Immerses need to be correctly located so it can be used for hot water only in the summer. You will probably find you need a tank of at least 2000 litres. Are you planning to use an internal heat exchanger or an external plate heat exchanger for hot water?

with regard to thermodynamics, read all the threads on this site before making a decision. They are currently excluded from MCS and RHI. You could be far better off with traditional solar thermal.
 
The Solar King said:
400 litre thermal store is way too small. This will be little more than buffer tank. This needs to be correctly sized for the job in hand and the range of heat inputs. Immerses need to be correctly located so it can be used for hot water only in the summer. You will probably find you need a tank of at least 2000 litres. Are you planning to use an internal heat exchanger or an external plate heat exchanger for hot water?

with regard to thermodynamics, read all the threads on this site before making a decision. They are currently excluded from MCS and RHI. You could be far better off with traditional solar thermal.
Click to expand...

I agree, just one point though, if Micheal P has gas into his heatstore, then will he still be eligible for the RHI?
I believe it is a good idea to have several heat sources to a heatstore although it can make it a little difficult to set up, as ideally at any point in time you want the "free heat" to be used first, IE logs in your case, however your "free heat" will change daytime/nighttime, winter/summer.
Complex but possible, get it right and it would be fantastic.

The jury is still out on thermodynamics, as an addition to your heatstore, personally, if it was in my budget I would give it a go, but I would not rely on it, but in twelve months time you may be telling us great it is.
 
jason121 said:
i thought thermodynamics had to be on its own cylinder as it works with F gas
Click to expand...

I was thinking of using one of the magic box systems which basically outputs the water at 55C from the box. Feeding this to an indirect coil distances the F gas from the thermal store. I hope i am correct?
 
The Solar King said:
400 litre thermal store is way too small. This will be little more than buffer tank. This needs to be correctly sized for the job in hand and the range of heat inputs. Immerses need to be correctly located so it can be used for hot water only in the summer. You will probably find you need a tank of at least 2000 litres. Are you planning to use an internal heat exchanger or an external plate heat exchanger for hot water?

with regard to thermodynamics, read all the threads on this site before making a decision. They are currently excluded from MCS and RHI. You could be far better off with traditional solar thermal.
Click to expand...

The hot water is created indirectly by running mains pressure cold thru the store via a high recovery stainless coil. See eco-equipped.com for the products. I will use an EC solar 400 with an add on to run UFH indirectly. I cant use solar thermal as the only roof available is north west facing.....not worried about RHI payments, i just thought that thermodynamics might be a better way of using the excess from the PV array
 
I have one of these Thermodynamic water heater system,*Heat pump mechanism - AIR MACHT
Not this make but from a different EN61215 manufacturer.
It has been sitting in a container for over a year but I am going to install it in my storage unit and replace the existing immersion tank. The ideal situation would be taking the air from a kitchen or bathroom and exiting the air into the home for cool dry air. A computer room would have been ideal!
I do not expect this unit to save me lots of money but it will be tested for efficacy. There is a better version with twin coils which can be connected to a thermal panel. If it can be run off an off grid set up the it has a place in my plans with the thermal attachment but in a slightly better climate.

The first real live data from the Thermodynamic system from Energie can be found here LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels - Page 4 - boards.ie

You may find it interesting and revealing. I think the recovery time if it ever gets really cold will be knocking on 24 hours!
 
Came across a client who had been sold the AE (Austrian Email) hot water heat pump. They paid £4500. I cannot see this product on the MCS portal so it doesn't appear to be MCS. Client has been promised payments under RHI totalling £14K over 7 years.

Anybody else come across this product?

The client had a 3 year old gas condensing combi BTW and had been convinced putting a new 300l cylinder in the garage was a better idea!(Only two occupants) It was suggested they keep using the combi for heating!

How do they get away with it?
 
Greenday said:
Came across a client who had been sold the AE (Austrian Email) hot water heat pump. They paid £4500. I cannot see this product on the MCS portal so it doesn't appear to be MCS. Client has been promised payments under RHI totalling £14K over 7 years.

Anybody else come across this product?

The client had a 3 year old gas condensing combi BTW and had been convinced putting a new 300l cylinder in the garage was a better idea!(Only two occupants) It was suggested they keep using the combi for heating!

How do they get away with it?
Click to expand...
did you suggest they complained to trading standards?

if not, then that's how they get away with it.
 
Greenday said:
Came across a client who had been sold the AE (Austrian Email) hot water heat pump. They paid £4500. I cannot see this product on the MCS portal so it doesn't appear to be MCS. Client has been promised payments under RHI totalling £14K over 7 years.

Anybody else come across this product?

The client had a 3 year old gas condensing combi BTW and had been convinced putting a new 300l cylinder in the garage was a better idea!(Only two occupants) It was suggested they keep using the combi for heating!

How do they get away with it?
Click to expand...

Funny that,
Had email from them today, the heat pump only does HW not space heating and the only have two sizes 100l and 300l. So not eligible for the RHI. There is more to the RHI then just installing heat pumps. I think some people are going to be very disappointed

Here it is

This high-quality integrated hot water heat pump is a true breakthrough in modern technology. It boasts a high COP of 4.3, standard 7 yr warrantee & built in switch for free hot water with a Solar PV system. Currently available are 100L & 300L cylinders to provide 100% of a families hot water requirements. Coming soon are 200L & 500L additions to the range.


The combination of particularly high-quality components results in a heat pump storage tank which combines a range of technological state-of-the-art features. Its exceptionally high COP value of 4.3, the integrated external current anode and its working range expanded to -7°C are the exceptional advantages of this high-end product.

Why Austria Email Hot Water heat pump?


Features & Benefits:

  • -150 yr old company
  • -Massive European market share
  • -Exceptionally high COP-value of 4.3 (in accordance with EN 255/3: A20/W15-45)
  • -100% of hot water provided
  • -Significantly extended working range (-7°C to +35°C)
  • -RHPP voucher available- £850 (T&C’s apply)
  • -RHI payments when available
  • -Wide variety of application options (Heating via heat pump or boiler)
  • -Extended 7 year warranty as standard
  • -Built in switch for free heating from PV system as standard
  • -50mm Thermal insulation as standard
  • -Built in coil as standard
  • -Zero heat loss between heat pump and storage tank
  • -Defrost function
  • -Very simple, very quick installation
  • -No electrical or refrigeration connection work is required
  • -Range of products available
  • -Factory tour available
 
The RHI, when it is finally announced, will only be able to be claimed by those holding a certificate of entitlement which is issued to the customer following successful registration of the installation by an MCS registered installer.

The hoops that an MCS registered installer has to jump through to prove that the system is designed and installed correctly have become more and more complex, nearly to a point that it is becoming uneconomical to prepare a quotation.

Any installations such as this one wouldn't hold up to the annual inspection of the installer by the registration body....in our case the NICEIC, and we all know how thorough their inspections are :)

I would guess that these people have mis-claimed to be MCS registered installers, which is an offence and can be investigated by Trading Standards. Maybe the customer should ask for the installers registration number as a first step.
 
jason121 said:
Funny that,
Had email from them today, the heat pump only does HW not space heating and the only have two sizes 100l and 300l. So not eligible for the RHI. There is more to the RHI then just installing heat pumps. I think some people are going to be very disappointed

Here it is

This high-quality integrated hot water heat pump is a true breakthrough in modern technology. It boasts a high COP of 4.3, standard 7 yr warrantee & built in switch for free hot water with a Solar PV system. Currently available are 100L & 300L cylinders to provide 100% of a families hot water requirements. Coming soon are 200L & 500L additions to the range.


The combination of particularly high-quality components results in a heat pump storage tank which combines a range of technological state-of-the-art features. Its exceptionally high COP value of 4.3, the integrated external current anode and its working range expanded to -7°C are the exceptional advantages of this high-end product.

Why Austria Email Hot Water heat pump?


Features & Benefits:

  • -150 yr old company
  • -Massive European market share
  • -Exceptionally high COP-value of 4.3 (in accordance with EN 255/3: A20/W15-45)
  • -100% of hot water provided
  • -Significantly extended working range (-7°C to +35°C)
  • -RHPP voucher available- £850 (T&C’s apply)
  • -RHI payments when available
  • -Wide variety of application options (Heating via heat pump or boiler)
  • -Extended 7 year warranty as standard
  • -Built in switch for free heating from PV system as standard
  • -50mm Thermal insulation as standard
  • -Built in coil as standard
  • -Zero heat loss between heat pump and storage tank
  • -Defrost function
  • -Very simple, very quick installation
  • -No electrical or refrigeration connection work is required
  • -Range of products available
  • -Factory tour available
Click to expand...

I also had an e-mail in my inbox yesterday:
"Hi,
I would like to personally invite you to attend an open day at our showroom in Manchester next week on Tuesday 12 / Wednesday 13 February.

Present will be 2 representatives from Austria Email who will provide in depth product & installation training for our flagship product the ‘plug & play’ hot water air source heat pump. Training sessions will take around 1 - 1½ hours.

Our showroom was constructed as a demonstration, testing and monitoring arena which provides accurate real time live data and analysis for various renewable and energy saving technologies.

We would be delighted if you wish to bring along any other directors, managers or sales personnel. Various training session slots are still available for these days.

Please advise the following which best suits you:

1. Date (either 12/13 Feb)

2. Time slot (either 1pm/3pm)

3. Number and names of people attending

This will be a great opportunity to see the Austria Email hot water heat pump, our showroom and get some further training direct from the manufacturer.

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

Kind regards,"

Training that takes 1 - 1+1/2 hours has to be good :grin:
 
FrankUK said:
The RHI, when it is finally announced, will only be able to be claimed by those holding a certificate of entitlement which is issued to the customer following successful registration of the installation by an MCS registered installer.

The hoops that an MCS registered installer has to jump through to prove that the system is designed and installed correctly have become more and more complex, nearly to a point that it is becoming uneconomical to prepare a quotation.

Any installations such as this one wouldn't hold up to the annual inspection of the installer by the registration body....in our case the NICEIC, and we all know how thorough their inspections are :)

I would guess that these people have mis-claimed to be MCS registered installers, which is an offence and can be investigated by Trading Standards. Maybe the customer should ask for the installers registration number as a first step.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me if ASHP systems running at SPF of 2.5 or less will qualify for the RHI. Designs such as High Temp systems ????
 
2.5 is the minimum level that is recognised as renewable heat under EU standards. It is worth referring to MCS data on heat emitters which may also add clarity. The results of the Domestic RHI consultation will be published quite soon which should give a clearer picture of what will be required in terms of qualification.
 
solarfred said:
I have one of these Thermodynamic water heater system,*Heat pump mechanism - AIR MACHT
Not this make but from a different EN61215 manufacturer.
It has been sitting in a container for over a year but I am going to install it in my storage unit and replace the existing immersion tank. The ideal situation would be taking the air from a kitchen or bathroom and exiting the air into the home for cool dry air. A computer room would have been ideal!
I do not expect this unit to save me lots of money but it will be tested for efficacy. There is a better version with twin coils which can be connected to a thermal panel. If it can be run off an off grid set up the it has a place in my plans with the thermal attachment but in a slightly better climate.

The first real live data from the Thermodynamic system from Energie can be found here LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels - Page 4 - boards.ie

You may find it interesting and revealing. I think the recovery time if it ever gets really cold will be knocking on 24 hours!
Click to expand...

Sorry that EN reference is PV! It actually has EN255-3 1997 for Heat pumps.
 
jason121 said:
So if I install hight temp heat pump before the consultation finishes the customer will still benifit from the RHI ?
Click to expand...
I suppose it could be possibly for them to be certified once MCS have got their act together. Don't know if this would be legit or not, but then I doubt anyone else would know this including MCS, but I reckon they'd be on dodgy grounds legally to refuse it.
 
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