Discuss Thermo dynamics for hot water that runs off atmosphere in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

oh, can heat pumps not get RHI if they're just for water heating then?


or more accurately, is that the proposal in the consultation?

hmm, well that will be a serious problem then as a disincentive from using them for water heating and an incentive to companies to go around fitting them as space heating solutions in totally inappropriate situations. That certainly sounds like the sort of thing that DECC / Gemserve would manage to come up with.
 
I have installed a few of these systems and these are the facts:

Ambient air temp - 6 deg C
Water entering temp - 8 deg C
200l of water 8 deg to 55 deg = 2 hours
amp draw = 9amps

Now i'm no mathematician, but what does this calculate into?

Steve
 
I have installed a few of these systems and these are the facts:

Ambient air temp - 6 deg C
Water entering temp - 8 deg C
200l of water 8 deg to 55 deg = 2 hours
amp draw = 9amps

Now i'm no mathematician, but what does this calculate into?

Steve

A miracle?

If this is true, it's very impressive technology.
 
Will this amazing new technology cut my gas bill in half, allowing a fantastically quick payback time on a 5K installation cost?

Or will I be left scratching my gonads when reality hits, the debt has to be repaid and the snakeoil salesman has hit the highway?
 
That works out at about 4.14 kWh...
That's the same as the immersion on for just under and hour and a half..
 
A miracle?

If this is true, it's very impressive technology.

Hmmm, yes it is true...... Ps....it's not that impressive, just basic refrigeration.


Will this amazing new technology cut my gas bill in half, allowing a fantastically quick payback time on a 5K installation cost?
Or will I be left scratching my gonads when reality hits, the debt has to be repaid and the snakeoil salesman has hit the highway?

This is where it all falls down.....the people selling it are charging too much....the ones we briefly installed were £7k.

Appx £950+vat for us, £1.5k+ vat for the kit and the rest for slimey HP salespeople, call centre battery chickens and entrepreneurs profit
 
230V x 9 Amps x 2 hours = 4.14kWh (230*9*2/1000 = 4.14)

3 kW Immersion for 1.5 hours = 3*1.5 = 4.5 kWh
 
230V x 9 Amps x 2 hours = 4.14kWh (230*9*2/1000 = 4.14)

3 kW Immersion for 1.5 hours = 3*1.5 = 4.5 kWh

is 230v x 9a not 2.07kW/h ??.. what I mean to ask is what is the energy required to raise the temp of water from 8 to 55 in 2 hours?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You said it ran for two hours 2.07kW is the power 4.14kWh is the energy

1 calorie will raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius. (That's the definition of a calorie)
1 Calorie will raise the temperature of 1 Kg of water 1 degree C
I ltr of water weighs 1 Kg

So to raise 210 Litres from 8 degrees to 55 degrees requires 47 x 210 = 9870 Calories

1 calorie = 4.18 Joules
So
1 Calorie = 4180 Joules
1 Watt = 1 Joule/Second
In Simple Terms, 1 Calorie = 1.162 Wh

so 9870 Calories = 11469 Wh or 11.5kWh

(You asked ...)
 
I have installed a few of these systems and these are the facts:

Ambient air temp - 6 deg C
Water entering temp - 8 deg C
200l of water 8 deg to 55 deg = 2 hours
amp draw = 9amps

Now i'm no mathematician, but what does this calculate into?

Steve
200l at a little under 50deg temp rise needs around 11kWh of energy input.

9amps x 230 v = 2kW x 2 hours = 4kW

COP = 11 / 4 = 2.75

a COP of 2.75 at 6 deg c ambient air temperature is reasonable, but not particularly impressive for a heat pump tbh, though it at least demonstrates that it's considerably better than an immersion heater, and maybe just about on a par with a condensing gas boiler.

So possibly worth it for those on full electric heating.
 
Only one problem with all of this calculation. We do not know that the whole tank was at 8degC at the start. To do this you would need to run cold water through it until the outlet temperature was at this level. We do not know that the whole tank had reached 55degC. We only know that at the location of the stat the temperature is 55degC. As a tank should stratify, it is possible that the temperature is not uniform throughout. You would need to run a de-stratification pump until the temperature was uniform throughout the cylinder to know that the entire contents were at 55degC. When you have done this, come back and tell us what the energy input to the cylinder was and what methodology was used to verify the data in a manner suitable for peer review.
 
Only one problem with all of this calculation. We do not know that the whole tank was at 8degC at the start.( a guess would say it was colder, the cylinder had been stored over night in an un-heated garage. The morning of installation was at an ambient of 0 deg C and 6 deg C at the time of commissioning) To do this you would need to run cold water through it until the outlet temperature was at this level. We do not know that the whole tank had reached 55degC. We only know that at the location of the stat the temperature is 55degC. (I measured the water temp at each tap outlet throughout the house) As a tank should stratify, it is possible that the temperature is not uniform throughout. You would need to run a de-stratification pump until the temperature was uniform throughout the cylinder to know that the entire contents were at 55degC. When you have done this, come back and tell us what the energy input to the cylinder was and what methodology was used to verify the data in a manner suitable for peer review.

Sorry to reply quoting your text..

Steve
 
tbf though you';re asking installation companies for information that only the manufacturer could be expected to supply. AFAIK this data doesn't exist, which is why no supplier or installer can supply you with it.

the data supplied by steve k though is bit more detailed than most anecdotal evidence, it's just not been carried out under test conditions in a lab or verified externally, and a few bits of data are missing. As I read it he's stated that this warm up time is from cold on first filling the tank, therefore it's pretty much certain that the entire tank was at the temperature of the incoming supply when heating started. It's obviously not 100% accurate, but is likely to be in the right ballpark as long as the tank stat is placed in a sensible location such as the middle of the heating coil at the base of the tank.

I understand the desire for figures, but IMO some of those shouting down this technology are as bad the other way as the snake oil salesmen types in terms of giving the impression that the tech doesn't work at all, which is obviously false. This is a heat pump, as such it is proven technology that has been in operation in other forms for 50 years+, and there is zero reason to think that it won't work, or that a COP of 2.7ish isn't about right for the temperatures given. The technology works, that's not really in doubt (by anyone who understands heat pumps), the valid issue is the lack of accurate data to verify exactly how well it will work in different situations and for different uses, along with a decision from MCS over which category it should fall into for RHI etc (if RHI ever starts anyway) along with miss-selling by rogue marketing companies etc.

I do actually understand the difficulty for the manufacturers in supplying standard heat pump data though, as this is based solely on the air temperature, whereas these devices also collect radiated solar energy, and there currently are no standardised tests designed to measure devices that extract heat from both sources. I suspect that the cop of 2.7 would be the COP without significant radiant heat input from the sun, and that the COP would rise to more like 3.5-4 or higher with the addition of full sunlight giving an extra 1000W/m2 of energy input to the panel.

I really think that MCS are as much to blame here as the manufacturers, as these products have been available in the UK for at least 3-4 years to my knowledge, yet MCS seem to have just ignored them until they suddenly became the next big thing. Simply put, they're guilty of having been asleep at the wheel when they should have been proactively working with the manufacturers to device appropriate test methods and data requirements for these types of products since day 1 of MCS starting up.

That said, I have previously linked on this site to independent test data for one of these products, though the above caveats about it not incorporating solar input in it's figures would apply.
 
2.7COP is 0.2 above the accepted level published by the EU for the definition of renewable heat.

Heat pumps do work, but recent studies by the Energy Savings Trust shows that in a very large number of installations house holders were gaining no benefit for a large variety of reasons including design, specification, installation, heat emitter type and user interaction. There is real danger that without the kind of data I constantly ask for there will simply be an action replay of this kind of experience.

With heat pumps, it is horses for courses. Currently they are not an appropriate technology for all properties in all locations. The level of expertise to correctly assess and specify systems is in my opinion far higher than that needed for PV, ST, or installing a normal central heating system. The margin for error in all of them in far greater.

Sadly, to say you suspect something in terms of performance is not substantive. Would you be comfortable and more importantly legal going out and selling on such a basis?

There are other manufacturers of hybrid equipment who are in dialogue with MCS over their equipment to clarify it's position in terms of registration. Why was this so difficult for the manufacturer's of thermo dynamics? Why was something registered as a solar panel tested with ethylene glycol then sold for use with refrigerant in something that is clearly a heat pump?


If you go back and check in early threads on this kit, my interest was originally in performance data because I liked the look of it, and it appeared to promise something new. My interest was in the claims for space heating, principally for off-grid areas. My increasing disenchantment is because no one has been able or willing to provide the information.

If the manufacturers had gone to MCS with chapter and verse on the equipment four years ago, all the issues now raised could have been dealt with then, but it appears they did not. Issues surrounding compliance with the Building Regs and required competencies could also have been sorted. The equipment was registered under solar keymark, in a way which was not appropriate. If the equipment works as described, why would you do that? Registration only existed because this scheme is recognised in the UK as an equivalent to the MCS product scheme. It would be interesting to know what is happening to it's registration under Solar Keymark in light of the intervention by MCS.

DECC will decide whether this equipment is eligible for RHI and in what category, not MCS.

The issue of whether this equipment works in a cost effective manner in cooler climates is still unanswered. Why is it so difficult for the manufacturers to provide substantive performance data of this nature and verify the claims made? Facts speak louder than words. All we have had are words.
 


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