Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[alarm man]

My own personal circumstances mean that I am currently retraining in the electrical sector... I am a mature student at the age of 40...and I have got 20 years of electronic engineering experience, as well as 7 years of study through C&G , ONC and HNC qualifications in other engineering disciplines.

I am now retraining through the Part P Domestic installer, 17th edition, and C&G2395 inspection and testing courses over the period of a few months of courses. My previous engineering training and experience mean that making engineering calculations for ohms law...voltage drop...transposing adiabatic equations and likewise are all second nature. Also, with my skills and knowledge learn't from previous BTEC and C&G courses within engineering, it means there are a lot of 'transferrable skills' which are common to both industries...

I am also going to become a member of one of the competent schemes...get my insurances...and ensure everything is above board... However, I am not under any misconception that I am going to be able to walk straight into customer premises and start doing full house rewiring, or carrying out full periodicals... or taking on large scale jobs. On the contrary...I am organising to go out on the tools with a fully trained spark for a few months to gain the essential practical experience before making a decision to go out on my own...

I understand everyones comments (and anger) on this subject...and that there are also many cowboys out there currently practicing bad electrics ... However, i don't think it is appropriate to group everyone in the same bracket... who decide to retrain and to take their hand to this route of training...there are also many experienced and clever guys that are taking this domestic installer route of training !

im not knocking the likes of yourself who already have a knowlege ,thats more diversifing than a total change as such,not unlike a spark going into electronics,but you have some who work in a office pencil pushing one day then i want to be a spark the next,but cant do it the college route as they have kids and a mortgage,with your knowledge id do it the college route

 

[pencilpusher]

pencil pushing

Hey, can you leave me out of this please!:waving:

 

[grimysparks80]

What annoys me about the short courses is that public and many employers dont see the difference. We`re all just electricians to them. My qualifications allow me to work as a spark but its my experience that makes me a good one.

 

[Adam W]

Ignorance is bliss.

Yes, I doubt there are many DIs who would consider themselves or even realise that they are effectively 'cowboys' due to their lack of knowledge/experience and recognition of limitations, added to customers not knowing much about the subject hence getting someone in.

I've said it before but the general public seem to take as read that anyone who calls them self an 'electrician' is competent to trade as one, and as mentioned is likely to rate an electrician on appearance - they might want someone to arrive on time driving a bright sunburst yellow van, wearing a shirt and tie, do exactly what the customer wants without trying to sell add-ons such as bonding and rcd protection, then get the vacuum cleaner out and clean their house.
On this basis a customer might be more likely to recommend an 'electrician' who until 6 weeks ago spent 20 years working on the customer service desk in Marks & Spencer, than one who left school at 16 to do an apprenticeship and work as an electrician on a building site for the next 10 years.

I suppose a 'solution' might be to promote the idea of hiring a 'JIB approved electrician' rather than necessarily a 'Part P registered electrician' - like them or not the JIB are all we've got right now.

 

[alarm man]

Hey, can you leave me out of this please!:waving:

quality man...:rofl:

 

[Big n Daft]

The words Domestic Installer make me puke and makes me boil with pure rage.
Cant watch this thread anymore, I now wont sleep as it is.uke::32::banghead::veryangry2::83:

 

[OllieNotts]

So can anyone reading this who wants to give a hard working student a chance to get in to the game, or even just some short term experience and let me shadow you then PLEASE pm me and I will give you a hand

 

[alarm man]

What annoys me about the short courses is that public and many employers dont see the difference. We`re all just electricians to them. My qualifications allow me to work as a spark but its my experience that makes me a good one.

agree,but why is it all wannabe sparks want to go domestic,i cant think of anything worse than house bashing,why dont they want to go industrial,swa,pyro,condiut tray and switchgear,wheres the new sparks in this enviroment coming from,i await tony's responce/rant on the matter..:shout:

 

[highspark]

The solution has been said advertise asking for JIB approved and part p registered lads. That way the qualifications needed are the real ones that take a few years!

 

[OllieNotts]

agree,but why is it all wannabe sparks want to go domestic,i cant think of anything worse than house bashing,why dont they want to go industrial,swa,pyro,condiut tray and switchgear,wheres the new sparks in this enviroment coming from,i await tony's responce/rant on the matter..:shout:

I would love to stay away from house bashing but I have read on here it is nigh on impossible to get in to industrial these days. I will do anything to get a chance to learn in any sector, commercial and/or domestic seem to be the way a lot of firms advertise here in Nottingham.
How do I get contacts? Can anyone here give me leads? please...pretty please with sugar on top....

 

[grimysparks80]

The words Domestic Installer make me puke and makes me boil with pure rage.
Cant watch this thread anymore, I now wont sleep as it is.uke::32::banghead::veryangry2::83:

Lol. Quick everyone. send him a PM with the heading Domestic installer:troll:

 

[OllieNotts]

The solution has been said advertise asking for JIB approved and part p registered lads. That way the qualifications needed are the real ones that take a few years!

The JIB card is something I really want to aim for, but my college are telling the students "you dont need a JIB card to earn money in this game". One told lads they will walk out next year on £40 an hour self emplyed earning 60k a year S/E haha

 

[i=p/u]

one more year get my jib card, gonna pay £10 quid for adverisement in my local paper to advertise for jib sparks and tell them the importance of being jib qualified, roll on a year .. we can defeat them together.. kepp the enimies close

 

[alarm man]

The JIB card is something I really want to aim for, but my college are telling the students "you dont need a JIB card to earn money in this game". One told lads they will walk out next year on £40 self emplyed earning 60k a year S/E haha

a jib card is all good and well,but without the rates and benefits it should carry its as good as your blockbuster card,but thats another thread.

 

[smiley1609]

i dont think that most forum members here are tarring all with the same brush.....but these 5 week wonders keep coming in here asking the most base questions on how to do stuff that usually start with the eternal words "i`m an electrician"...or something like that....can get really annoying.....basic stuff about where and where not to apply diversity,...."what size MCB should i use"....this without any attempt at looking through the relevent books first ....no...non of that....its straight in here...and so someone has to answer thise questions just because they know the anser and did their homework........really irritating stuff like that....

fair enough guys...

I do also tend to agree with many of the comments on this subject as well...there are many out there that don't have a clue...and as you have suggested, in the main forum there are often some totally ridiculous questions being asked by guys that quite obviously don't have any idea about the subject !

I entirely agree with earlier posts about some form of practical training...i.e. drilling joists...chasing walls... and although these classroom courses for the building regs will help to understand the Part A requirements for depth of chases... allowable areas to drill joists...Part M requirements for mobility...and bathroom zonal restrictions...and many other regulations... however, these courses don't give a full knowledge of the execution of these tasks !

When I finish my current job...I am luck enough to have the possibility to work alongside a fully trained spark...and a good redundancy package to allow me to get by on a minimal wage for some time...although to have a full apprenticeship at my age and with mortgage and family commitments would be an impossibility !

I hope that within a few month period, that it should give me enough knowledge and know how...to at least be able to make an informed decision whether this is going to be the right industry for me !

Heck, after doing the job for a few months...I might realise that I do not wish to spend the rest of my days crawling around roof spaces...and lifting floorboards !

 

[alarm man]

fair enough guys...

I do also tend to agree with many of the comments on this subject as well...there are many out there that don't have a clue...and as you have suggested, in the main forum there are often some totally ridiculous questions being asked by guys that quite obviously don't have any idea about the subject !

I entirely agree with earlier posts about some form of practical training...i.e. drilling joists...chasing walls... and although these classroom courses for the building regs will help to understand the Part A requirements for depth of chases... allowable areas to drill joists...Part M requirements for mobility...and bathroom zonal restrictions...and many other regulations... however, these courses don't give a full knowledge of the execution of these tasks !

When I finish my current job...I am luck enough to have the possibility to work alongside a fully trained spark...and a good redundancy package to allow me to get by on a minimal wage for some time...although to have a full apprenticeship at my age and with mortgage and family commitments would be an impossibility !

I hope that within a few month period, that it should give me enough knowledge and know how...to at least be able to make an informed decision whether this is going to be the right industry for me !

Heck, after doing the job for a few months...I might realise that I do not wish to spend the rest of my days crawling around roof spaces...and lifting floorboards !

to be fair man,a few months you wont know much more than you do now,and im a believer in you learn something new everyday

 

[OllieNotts]

a jib card is all good and well,but without the rates and benefits it should carry its as good as your blockbuster card,but thats another thread.

I know, I have been reading. It seems that while all industries feel the pinch the men at the top dont give up their share of the money and just keeping getting richer. Meh.
And anyone who missed my earlier post, I am free for training wed-sun till june then full time till sept when I do level 3

 

[Mark_Burgess]

I know, I have been reading. It seems that while all industries feel the pinch the men at the top dont give up their share of the money and just keeping getting richer. Meh.
And anyone who missed my earlier post, I am free for training wed-sun till june then full time till sept when I do level 3

Without saying the area you live, the less likely you are to get a response.

 

[OllieNotts]

Without saying the area you live, the less likely you are to get a response.

OllieNotts as in Nottingham, thought the clue was in the name sorry. Nottingham or Derby are both accessible

 

[Adam W]

a jib card is all good and well,but without the rates and benefits it should carry its as good as your blockbuster card,but thats another thread.

This isn't about companies paying JIB rates, it's about domestic customers knowing that they are employing a qualified tradesman.

 

[alarm man]

This isn't about companies paying JIB rates, it's about domestic customers knowing that they are employing a qualified tradesman.

well a-they dont want too,b-and they dont know...

 

[ample current]

I would dearly loooove to work along side a fully qualified spark to learn onsite to gain some hands on experiance and guidence. nothing would please me more, even if it was for one day a week.


any one on here in the Bristol area want a part time, very hard working, reliable, enthusiastic, conscientious worker

 

[ipf]

fair enough guys...

I do also tend to agree with many of the comments on this subject as well...there are many out there that don't have a clue...and as you have suggested, in the main forum there are often some totally ridiculous questions being asked by guys that quite obviously don't have any idea about the subject !

I entirely agree with earlier posts about some form of practical training...i.e. drilling joists...chasing walls... and although these classroom courses for the building regs will help to understand the Part A requirements for depth of chases... allowable areas to drill joists...Part M requirements for mobility...and bathroom zonal restrictions...and many other regulations... however, these courses don't give a full knowledge of the execution of these tasks !

When I finish my current job...I am luck enough to have the possibility to work alongside a fully trained spark...and a good redundancy package to allow me to get by on a minimal wage for some time...although to have a full apprenticeship at my age and with mortgage and family commitments would be an impossibility !

I hope that within a few month period, that it should give me enough knowledge and know how...to at least be able to make an informed decision whether this is going to be the right industry for me !

Heck, after doing the job for a few months...I might realise that I do not wish to spend the rest of my days crawling around roof spaces...and lifting floorboards !

Try crawling under floorboards and lifting roof slates.
:sweatdrop:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

thing is n all is you get folk going through the likes of ratedpeople...and other parasites like that....wanting stuff doing for practically nowt and in unrealistic timeframes........they dont help themselves do they......

 

[sparkiegaz]

customers dont give crap about badges fancy cert coloured cards etc etc all they want is cheap,,,,,cheapest feller gets the job,,,,,as long as the lights turn on and off when asked and the tv can work from the white thingy in the wall there happy look at cowboy builders on channel five bet the home owners went with the cheapest quote and ended up in the mess on all of them,,

 

[Engineer54]

My own personal circumstances mean that I am currently retraining in the electrical sector... I am a mature student at the age of 40...and I have got 20 years of electronic engineering experience, as well as 7 years of study through C&G , ONC and HNC qualifications in other engineering disciplines.

I am now retraining through the Part P Domestic installer, 17th edition, and C&G2395 inspection and testing courses over the period of a few months of courses. My previous engineering training and experience mean that making engineering calculations for ohms law...voltage drop...transposing adiabatic equations and likewise are all second nature. Also, with my skills and knowledge learn't from previous BTEC and C&G courses within engineering, it means there are a lot of 'transferrable skills' which are common to both industries...

I am also going to become a member of one of the competent schemes...get my insurances...and ensure everything is above board... However, I am not under any misconception that I am going to be able to walk straight into customer premises and start doing full house rewiring, or carrying out full periodicals... or taking on large scale jobs. On the contrary...I am organising to go out on the tools with a fully trained spark for a few months to gain the essential practical experience before making a decision to go out on my own...

I understand everyones comments (and anger) on this subject...and that there are also many cowboys out there currently practicing bad electrics ... However, i don't think it is appropriate to group everyone in the same bracket... who decide to retrain and to take their hand to this route of training...there are also many experienced and clever guys that are taking this domestic installer route of training !

You can't really call yourself a Electrical Trainee can you?? As you say yourself, you have quite a few transferable skills, you will also have a knowledge of the industry, as your skill base isn't a million miles away from that of an electrician either.

Doesn't Matter how clever anyone is, if your a mature guy, that has come from say an office based occupation, banking, insurance and the like isn't really the same thing or the same as your situation is it?? Many of these types of mature students are being cohered into the electrical industry by training centres convincing them to part with redundancy monies to retrain in 5 Weeks on the promise of being competent an high monetary rewards.

So think about it, these guy's have gone from working in an office for maybe 20 years, many never even handling a screwdriver. And 5 weeks later and a few thousand quid lighter, thinking they are competent electricians!! And what makes it even worse, you have these Scam Providers reinforcing that belief by giving them a pseudo official registration confirming that competency. Every man and his dog knows that this just isn't possible, but they are still officially recognised as such, by the LABC's and other bodies...

No you can't lump/group everyone into the same bracket, but then you can't easily differentiate between newcomers either. The truth is, there are very few newcomers into the industry that have the the required training and experience. Most of the available training these day's has been specifically geared towards this numbty designation ''Domestic Installer'' ....What's one of those one might ask, ...certainly not a qualified electrician

 

[ipf]

You would think that the people employed by these so called 'training organisations' as lecturers, or whatever, have been brought up in the trade. If so, they are selling their fellow tradesmen down the river. Anything for cash and no thought whatsoever for those who matter. It's alright the authorities going on about a lack of tradesmen, but a decent grounding is required rather than a quick fix.

 

[Guest112]

all i can say is i have a jib gold card the Electrical Trainee dont i have 2391 they dont i can work in commercial and industrial environments they cant unless the pick up a brush and start cleaning up behind the real sparkies lol

 

[gdr7671]

I like these practising Electrical Trainee that have NO IDEA at all, because then recommendation for a decent electrician leads on to me, and I go and do the job properly.

What I really do not understand is that although someone can pass the BS7671 and 2391 in a classroom has no idea on how to remove floor boards, chase a wall use a hammer and chisel. They should not be allowed out on their own without some sort of general skills, there should be a bolt on course that covers that, a bit like the theory and practical driving test.

which is NVQ3 and AMT2

 

[stv292]

i'm a DI, i work 4 on 4 off. have done a lot of house bashing over the last 10 years inc plastering and woodwork on my 4 days off, renovated 2 of my own houses. wanted to learn about electrics so took a course. the course told me what i needed to learn and where and how to find the information. i never go into a job blind i always research what i gotta do 1st, i work with an experianced electricians mate who's installation skills are second to none, so i dont take on any work on my own, confident in testing and will continue keeping my head in the books most nights, all cable calcs are written in the back of my on site guide. haven't finished courses yet and will try to do at least one a year..
having 4 days off gives me time to plan a job and not to rush it.
go easy on me

 

[SPARTYKUS]

OllieNotts as in Nottingham, thought the clue was in the name sorry. Nottingham or Derby are both accessible

Im Spartykus, does that mean Im available in Jerusalem !!!! (lol)

 

[Heisenberg]

Im Spartykus, does that mean Im available in Jerusalem !!!! (lol)

Emm, I think you mean Rome :wink_smile:

 

[Mark_Burgess]

which is NVQ3 and AMT2

I know that, they are not compulsory qualifications though, so the straight out of an office and into the trade guy has been told he is competent with the C&G7671 and registered with NIC, elecsa napit etc will undoubtedly go for any further training that takes more time and money.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Emm, I think you mean Rome :wink_smile:

Depends which bit of the film you're in. Only joshing anyway lets not get bogged down in geography!!

 

[RWJ]

We recently advertised (locally) for an INDUSTRIAL electrician with industrial and HV (for cranes) experience to work 3 - 4 days out of 5 in a INDUSTRIAL fabrication factory.

Out of the 100's of applications we received HALF were from lads that had mainly 2382 and ELA Domestic Installer.

They were even coming to our office thinking that we SHOULD give them the job as they were "Fully Qualified" and when questioned the only qualification or experience they thought they might be lacking was the 2391.

Good Luck..... I don't have HV experience so I wouldn't even go near the stuff.

(I'm not Electrical Trainee bashing just telling it how it was, and I'm sure there were 3 times as many that didn't apply because they know their limitations.)

 

[UNG]

I may be starting to understand the new system that has appeared in the electrical industry

We have DI's who appear to be at varying levels qualification and competence having come through the quick career change system
Then we have paper qualified electricians who have spent years at college in their spare time but with little or no experience on the tools
After that there are the qualified sparks who served an apprenticeship and gained a lot of experience while learning the job and are still learning

While I appreciate that all industries are changing and evolving the electrical industry has had Part P forced on it on the grounds of improving safety in the domestic setting then it allows these quick training providers to offer sub standard miss sold training and is aided and abetted by the scheme providers registering every one and any one

I wonder how much lower the bar can go before it has to be raised to preserve life and property

 

[Paul.M]

they might want someone to arrive on time driving a bright sunburst yellow van, wearing a shirt and tie, do exactly what the customer wants without trying to sell add-ons such as bonding and rcd protection, then get the vacuum cleaner out and clean their house.
On this basis a customer might be more likely to recommend an 'electrician' who until 6 weeks ago spent 20 years working on the customer service desk in Marks & Spencer.

"That's not any old electrician, that's a M&S electrician.

 

[DNS1]

Whilst I understand where a lot of the anti-Electrical Trainee rants are coming from, I think it's a little unfair to tar everyone with the same brush, just because they've not done a full JIB apprenticeship.

People keep talking about the importance of being able to do the non-electrical side of the domestic business (jemmying boards, drilling joists/brickwork etc) but there are many ways to learn these skills.

If someone has spent 10 years as a builder, plumber etc, they're already going to know their way around the tools. In that instance, a domestic installer course and a lot of time with the books would likely be enough for them to go into a customers house and do domestic work. Why should they be prevented from this because they've not got a JIB card?

I'm going down the domestic installer route into the industry myself. I've got yonks of experience with domestic building work, plastering, plumbing etc and an engineering background.

 

[highspark]

Whilst I understand where a lot of the anti-Electrical Trainee rants are coming from, I think it's a little unfair to tar everyone with the same brush, just because they've not done a full JIB apprenticeship.People keep talking about the importance of being able to do the non-electrical side of the domestic business (jemmying boards, drilling joists/brickwork etc) but there are many ways to learn these skills.If someone has spent 10 years as a builder, plumber etc, they're already going to know their way around the tools. In that instance, a domestic installer course and a lot of time with the books would likely be enough for them to go into a customers house and do domestic work. Why should they be prevented from this because they've not got a JIB card?I'm going down the domestic installer route into the industry myself. I've got yonks of experience with domestic building work, plastering, plumbing etc and an engineering background.

Its nothing to do with experience on the tools. Its knowledge of electrical systems. Anyone can put a ring together. The measure of a spark is when the crap hits the fan and hes got to identify a fault. This is where the electrical trainee wouldn't have a chance.

 

[Guest112]

the only peace i find is that domestic work in most cases is easier imo than commercial and industrial if these Electrical Trainee came to the real world most would jack in i reckon

 

[Adam W]

well a-they dont want too,b-and they dont know...

There are a lot of customers who would like to know what kind of electrician they are employing, many of whom would rather employ a fully qualified one than one who's done a 5 week 'crash course'.
At one point nobody had heard of Part P, but now the likes of Matt Alright BBC Rogue Traders and that Dominic Littlewood keep telling everyone about it so the message is getting through; what I'm saying is the same could be done with a JIB card - remember the card lists your qualifications and the JIB don't give out cards like sweets.

 

[alarm man]

"That's not any old electrician, that's a M&S electrician.

i so wanted to post that....:smartass:

 

[Adam W]

Whilst I understand where a lot of the anti-Electrical Trainee rants are coming from, I think it's a little unfair to tar everyone with the same brush, just because they've not done a full JIB apprenticeship.

People keep talking about the importance of being able to do the non-electrical side of the domestic business (jemmying boards, drilling joists/brickwork etc) but there are many ways to learn these skills.

If someone has spent 10 years as a builder, plumber etc, they're already going to know their way around the tools. In that instance, a domestic installer course and a lot of time with the books would likely be enough for them to go into a customers house and do domestic work. Why should they be prevented from this because they've not got a JIB card?

I'm going down the domestic installer route into the industry myself. I've got yonks of experience with domestic building work, plastering, plumbing etc and an engineering background.

It's about proving it though. Someone with 10 years building experience might be good at lifting floorboards and filling in chases, but someone thinking they know it all is no reason to lower the bar. We get a lot of people coming on here thinking they're automatically an electrician because they've worked in IT for 20 years, but it doesn't work like that - they still have to take the exams and do their portfolio the same as everyone else. While some may excel at it, perhaps because they've had practice on their own home, some will realise that in fact they don't know it all, and it's better to find that out in a college than when you've gone out to represent the industry in a customer's house.

 

[BillyH]

Umm.. no sarcasm intended but is that not the JIB gold card..?

There's plenty of guys on here with City and Guilds parts 1 and 2 (or A and B if you're an oldie like me)who would struggle to get a gold card.Don't make you a better sparky though.

 

[alarm man]

There's plenty of guys on here with City and Guilds parts 1 and 2 (or A and B if you're an oldie like me)who would struggle to get a gold card.Don't make you a better sparky though.

would you not qualify for a gold card under the jib grandfather rights scheme

 

[Marvo]

I may be starting to understand the new system that has appeared in the electrical industry.....

I'm glad you're understanding it UNG, I've been hanging around this forum for quite a while and I'm as confused now as the day I arrived. I honestly don't understand how Part P which as I keep reading is a building regulation of some sort is touted as an electrical qualification.

To me the whole UK qualification system reminds me of calculus. I sat through weeks of it in class and it all went over my head, I was getting despondent and depressed at not understanding, then one day, for no particular reason the fog just cleared and it all made perfect sense. With the part p thing though the fog is being persistent still and showing no signs of clearing just yet.

 

[Guest112]

i dont think this fogs going to clear tbh

 

[ipf]

i dont think this fogs going to clear tbh

A real Peeeeeeeeee...souper!!! lol!

 

[trev]

I'm glad you're understanding it UNG, I've been hanging around this forum for quite a while and I'm as confused now as the day I arrived. I honestly don't understand how Part P which as I keep reading is a building regulation of some sort is touted as an electrical qualification

There's a qualification called the EAL Domestic Installer's Certificate which purports to teach people the standards and expectations of the building reg Part P. Idiots then decided to tell people they were part p qualified and the whole thing mushroomed from there Marvo. Fact of the matter is the qual is pretty much worthless to a proper spark.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I'm glad you're understanding it UNG, I've been hanging around this forum for quite a while and I'm as confused now as the day I arrived. I honestly don't understand how Part P which as I keep reading is a building regulation of some sort is touted as an electrical qualification.

To me the whole UK qualification system reminds me of calculus. I sat through weeks of it in class and it all went over my head, I was getting despondent and depressed at not understanding, then one day, for no particular reason the fog just cleared and it all made perfect sense. With the part p thing though the fog is being persistent still and showing no signs of clearing just yet.

...although both show a likelihood of tending towards infinity !