Discuss 32A single phase output from 3 x 16A three phase supply. Is there a way? in the Commercial Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net

Mark42

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I have a workshop in a remote location which I rent out. The incoming supply is 3 x 16A three phase on 180m of 16mm SWA.

An upcoming customer has a machine which needs a 32A single phase supply. (Actual load about 25A.)

The energy is there, but it's split across the three phases. Is there some magic way - perhaps some kind of transformer - of making this work?
 
I have a workshop in a remote location which I rent out. The incoming supply is 3 x 16A three phase on 180m of 16mm SWA.

An upcoming customer has a machine which needs a 32A single phase supply. (Actual load about 25A.)

The energy is there, but it's split across the three phases. Is there some magic way - perhaps some kind of transformer - of making this work?

Yes, there are two ways, the first is just a single phase transformer 400/230V placed across two phases, should just about do 25A (should get 28A ignoring losses).

The second is a special 3 phase to 1 phase transformer, there are a few winding connections that can do it, but it would be a custom build I guess.

Even a single phase transformer would be expensive though


(Of course, you could also have a motor-gen setup, but that's going to be even more expensive)
 
Agree with Julie, simplest is to use two lines as a 400V single-phase supply and step down from 400-230. A 6kVA single-phase isolating transformer might set you back £500-1000. Depending on the nature of the equipment, it might be possible to use an autotransformer which will be smaller and cheaper, although neither output terminal would then be neutral and unless the machine is designed with that in mind, with double-pole isolation and suitable fault protection for internal circuits, it probably wouldn't be acceptable.
 
Cheaper way would be to get a tenant who doesn't need an upgrade. Or...get them to pay for upgrade. What is usually done when I upgrade for new tenants, they pay on commercial letting site.
 
Two more thoughts. One is that it would be undesirable to run 3-phase motor loads (even very small ones) at the end of the submain when two phases are loaded up to what I assume is a VD-imposed limit while the other phase is light. The voltage assymmetry will cause increased stator current and heating.

If there are no 3-phase loads to power, then depending on the machine, if it is tolerant of low input voltage it might be possible to convert the SWA submain to two 2-wire single-phase circuits. One loaded to the 16A limit to serve lighting and general loads with its original VD spec, and the other uprated to 25A with higher VD permitted for the single machine load.
 
Is it feasible simply to put in another cable?

I.e. is the supply capable of 32A and the current cable is in duct, etc, so pulling through another is manageable without major digging effort, etc.
 
Two more thoughts. One is that it would be undesirable to run 3-phase motor loads (even very small ones) at the end of the submain when two phases are loaded up to what I assume is a VD-imposed limit while the other phase is light. The voltage assymmetry will cause increased stator current and heating.

If there are no 3-phase loads to power, then depending on the machine, if it is tolerant of low input voltage it might be possible to convert the SWA submain to two 2-wire single-phase circuits. One loaded to the 16A limit to serve lighting and general loads with its original VD spec, and the other uprated to 25A with higher VD permitted for the single machine load.
Good point about the voltage unbalance, applicable in all cases of course, but you're right this would be a particularly severe case with two lines right up to their limit, and the other potentially fairly unloaded.

I would rather double up the four conductors for a higher current rating, two for the Neutral and two for the line, but it all depends if the rating limit is due to cable, or fuse/supply limitations.

The former would be easier, no good if you have 3ph loads, or fuse/supply limits.

In that case it is either a no-go, or you need to use all three phases equally, so a three phase to single phase transformer would be a must, you could either use a Scott connection, or ideally a Le Blanc, both giving proper 2 phase - where you need to use both lines, ignoring the 2 phase neutral, so voltage wise you need a 163V ph-n supply give 230V ph-ph (1.41 factor).

The most simple solution of three 400/115V transformers primaries in delta, two secondaries in open vee, and the third reversed on one end of the open vee; wouldn't really be suitable as it presents quite an unbalanced load between phases. Not quite as bad as just a single line-line transformer, but you could get the full 32A.
 
A quick check on the Doncaster calculator has 25mm OK for a single-phase 32A run of 185m, so @Julie. suggestion of simply converting to a single-phase run with 2*16mm for each of the L & N would be reasonable.

Question is do they need 3-phase anyway for something else?
 
Mark42: What is the machine? I'd want to know more about it and its electrical design, its current/time plot and how often it is used. For example does it only need 32A to start or does it use 32A when running and loaded or up to 32A when running and dependent on how heavily loaded?
 

Reply to 32A single phase output from 3 x 16A three phase supply. Is there a way? in the Commercial Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net

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