Advice on TT system

[Skys]

When carrying out Ze with main earth disconnect I get a reading of 77.25 ohms. All good. When main earth is reconnected and all parallel paths in place reading comes down to 0.60 ohms. I have 3 lighting circuits not covered by an rcd all Zs readings are well in permitted Zs. Would any body apply a code to this when carrying out a EICR. Never had this scenario that the Zs falls so low on a TT due to parallel paths . Thanks

 

[mattg4321]

Do you know where this parallel path is? A metallic service pipe maybe running close to a pme earth outside the building?

 

[pc1966]

That sounds like service pipes that are bonded and shared with nearby properties on TN systems, that can easily give < 1 ohm earthing. However, they can also vanish one day if said pipes are replaced with plastic.

 

[pc1966]

I have 3 lighting circuits not covered by an rcd

So is this a TT system without any RCD incomer?

I would say it is C2 as you cannot depend on service pipe earths, and without it those circuits have no effective means of earthing to meet disconnection times in any way (Ra/ Ze is well above MCB Zs requirement).

 

[Skys]

Do you know where this parallel path is? A metallic service pipe maybe running close to a pme earth outside the building?

No don’t know where the parallel path is. Bonding in place for water and gas but not sure there runs when leaving the building in relation to the earth spike

 

[Strima]

Edit: I've just reread the post.

C2 for lack of RCD protection as the Ra is not sufficiently low enough for the OCPD to operate under earth fault conditions.

It's very common for parallel paths to bring down the Zs in TT systems. One building I regularly work on has an Ra of around 180 ohms but the water bond drags this down to a Zs of around 0.20 on most circuits.

 

[Skys]

So is this a TT system without any RCD incomer?

I would say it is C2 as you cannot depend on service pipe earths, and without it those circuits have no effective means of earthing to meet disconnection times in any way (Ra/ Ze is well above MCB Zs requirement).

No rcd incomer. plastic board with tail gland to hold tails in place. One side rcd protected. The 3 lighting circuits not rcd protected. Obviously want to push to change mcbs to rcbos. But want to make sure I am in the right with the Zs been acceptable as it stands

 

[pc1966]

Changing to RCBOs would be the best solution in my mind.

Regulation 542.2.6 is the one saying you cannot use service pipes as the earth. They may be beneficial to the normal Zs (as clearly the case here) but

• They can be changed by outside parties, rendering the system inadequately protected, and
• Under fault conditions they are a hazard to anyone working on them elsewhere if the fault cannot disconnect independently (i.e with them opened for a joint to be changed, etc.)

 

[loz2754]

411.5.2 One or more of the following types of protective device shall be used, the former being preferred:
(i)An RCD
(ii)An overcurrent protective device.
NOTE 1: An appropriate overcurrent protective device may be used for fault protection provided a suitably low value of Zs is permanently and reliably assured.
NOTE 2: Where an RCD is used for fault protection the circuit should also incorporate an overcurrent protective device in accordance with Chapter 43.

 

[stevethesparks]

As it stands a C2.
Obviously any circuits without rcd/rcbo protection needs to be remedied on a TT system.
As far as the RA is concerned, according to BS7671 and indeed the NICEIC recommendation of below 100 ohms, this meets requirements.
Main protective bonding is in place and so that meets requirements.
So once the rcd protection is installed, we have a system that should comply but doesn't really as we shouldn't reply on other services as the main earth, but do so by default.
Apart from trying to improve the RA by installing additional rods, its still unlikely to get to a level that will be below the main protective bonding readings.
As far as I can see, all you can do is make sure everything is as should be (as above). Unless the householder wants to have plastic inserts installed at the income of the other services.
Edit: far too long typing that others have replied first

 

[westward10]

Not uncommon in most circumstances the earthing conductor is just earthing the electrode.

 

[stevethesparks]

Not uncommon in most circumstances the earthing conductor is just earthing the electrode.

Well it is extraneous

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I had a interesting experience this week with an EICR in a commercial unit. All units are 3 phase some are PME others TT with rods out front in chambers. all units have structural steel which is bonded. water pipes inside is bonded but incoming pipe is blue plastic. a properr ra with wander lead connected to rod gave 27 Ohms.. with all things connected i got a 'zsdb' of 0.24
Out of curiosity I took the wander lead round to adjacent units, just about reached the cutout in one. it seems the units being joined through steel work, reinforced foundations and metal in the roofs etc have created one large linked system. it is debateable then whether the unit i tested is still TT as it has a link through structural steel to the PME cut outs. all utilities are via plastic pipes so the only shared paths are are the steel in the buildings. makes for an interesting fault current path.

 

[marcuswareham]

Interesting when a TT building is linked to a TNCS building via pipes or structural steel

What happens if a EV charger is installed at the TT building, without any thought to 722.411.41 due to the fact it is TT, but then the EV is still subject to all the dangers of EVs on PME

I guess a good electrician would notice this and that it is fortuitously connected to a PME earth, But I would imagine some wouldn't

 

[westward10]

I had a interesting experience this week with an EICR in a commercial unit. All units are 3 phase some are PME others TT with rods out front in chambers. all units have structural steel which is bonded. water pipes inside is bonded but incoming pipe is blue plastic. a properr ra with wander lead connected to rod gave 27 Ohms.. with all things connected i got a 'zsdb' of 0.24
Out of curiosity I took the wander lead round to adjacent units, just about reached the cutout in one. it seems the units being joined through steel work, reinforced foundations and metal in the roofs etc have created one large linked system. it is debateable then whether the unit i tested is still TT as it has a link through structural steel to the PME cut outs. all utilities are via plastic pipes so the only shared paths are are the steel in the buildings. makes for an interesting fault current path.

DNO very often won't give PME in this situation due to multiple supplies within a commonly bonded structure.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

DNO very often won't give PME in this situation due to multiple supplies within a commonly bonded structure.

Quite fortunate in that the landlord of this unit has had it from day 1. He pulled all his paperwork out and seems different sections /rows had different dnos. One side of this section is SSEN who have PME this part is an IDNO. Each phase was different builder's, dno etc... I have done a lot of work in units there. Fitted a few ev chargers...
Treated all the units as pme despite the rods as safest option. Fitted matt:e on earlier installs and then zappis