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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
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Just to translate Barker's tweet ("Looking forward to sharing ambitious new plans for #FiTs with both Industry, & Parliament later today. Bigger scheme, better value!")
ambitious - complex and unworkable
bigger scheme - we ran out of money so had to fudge the budget by moving money from the RO budget to the FIT budget to compensate but this is "purely a technical adjustment and makes no difference to the actual amount of subsidy available"
better value - swinging cuts
F
I'm So gonna retweet this!
P
Well, you'll just have to tell them that the forecast is only valid for a very short period, and that really if they want to be assured of that forecast, then they should sign the contract right now or they might lose out. Sorry, what was that about pressure selling...
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Yes, that's right. DECC have until 22/2 to apply to Supreme Court.
T
To get full rate they will need to supply an EPC 'D' (at least) when they apply for a FiTs contract with an electricity supplier. If they do not provide one then they will be on 9p for 25 years.
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It wont be that easy as the epc needs to be registered with a governing body like stroma etc
E
It does not work like that basicly it is one big SAP calculation and everything from house age to light bulbs are taken into account.
My house is a higher D
No loft insulation
Double glazed windows
No energy Efficent bulbs
1965 bulit
Etc etc
I did and epc on a house built 1892 it got a lower D
So I think thats the good news
I have been on DEA course and soon will be accredited to under EPC's so if you require a EPC & survey in one hit give us a shout NORTH WEST mind
T
It's not straight-forward as it depends on many things which are added up on a points system, but the basics would be cavity wall insulation, 300mm loft insulation, modern condensing gas boiler and low energy lighting.
To get a 'D' you need at least 55 points out of 100 (more or less).
DECC say that 51% of all dwellings currently are at least a 'D'.
There is also an exemption for certain buildings that cannot get an EPC at all, but no details on that yet. Also for agricultural buildings where the PV might be on a barn roof, the EPC rating will be for the farmhouse (assuming the electric is connected there).
T
Isn't a DEA supposed to be for Domestic properties only? To my mind that means a place where someone lives. Would a place of worship (or a school or a supermarket) be classed as such or would you need an NDEA to provide an EPC?
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What i don't think the government understands is that the prices cant keep going down, it will come to a point where the materials are at there lowest price, the roofers and electricians aren't going to lower their price (Why should they have to!) and we will be left with a couple of hundred quid for doing the job!!
I personally think current solar PV pricing is reasonable for both the consumer and also for the installer. If it goes down any lower serious corners will have to be cut to make a living out of this industry!!
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Discuss Announcement "later today!" in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
OP
TedM
Barker now says he will announce in Parliament at 11:30am.
OP
TedM
DECC press release here Improvements to the Feed-in Tariffs scheme - Department of Energy and Climate Change
OP
TedM
21p and EPC 'D' from April 1st.
- Reaction score
- 310
lol, beat me to it Ted....
OP
SRE
Between 13.5 and 16.5p proposed from July
OP
trevor79
Where did you see that?
OP
TedM
There is a little wrinkle in the EPC 'D' part. The original proposal was that a building must be able to get a 'C' within 12 months of a PV installation. Now it will have to have achieved a 'D' at the point when the owner applies for a FiT contract. Owners will have to submit an up-to-date EPC as part of the application process.
OP
TedM
The July tariffs are a new DECC proposal here http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...ariffs-scheme-phase-2a-consultation-paper.pdf
This is open to consultation until 3rd April.
This is open to consultation until 3rd April.
Markc
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- Reaction score
- 147
D is better than a C but still high. Think we now need to look into this aspect more than the rate.
Also think a 6 monthly rate reduction will have the same effect every six months with workloads. Rush to meet the next deadline.
Results are better but not as good as I was hoping for.
Also think a 6 monthly rate reduction will have the same effect every six months with workloads. Rush to meet the next deadline.
Results are better but not as good as I was hoping for.
OP
sambotc
• Proposes review of export tariffs, possible
reduction in tariff lifetimes for PV, and
consideration of future of index-linking
?
reduction in tariff lifetimes for PV, and
consideration of future of index-linking
?
In summary the proposals are a further reduction to the FIT from the 1 July to 13.6p, 15.7p or 16.5p (three possibilities are considered). The another cut of 5% to the whichever of these rates is chosen on the 1 Oct.
Thereafter the FIT will automatically drop by 10% every 6 months (although the consultation "welcomes" views on whether a slower rate e.g. 5% might be more appropriate).
In addition, if the number of installations exceeds 125% of the expected number of installations this will automatically trigger a further reduction in the FIT with two months notice. DECC will publish the expected number of installation figures in advance (although it isn't clear to me how far in advance or how these figures will be calculated).
If you need to get planning permission, DNO approval for >16amp installations, or bring your property up to EPC D, you could very easily find yourself getting a lower FIT than expected if such a two month notice period is triggered whilst you are waiting for permissions or other insulation work to be completed!
Thereafter the FIT will automatically drop by 10% every 6 months (although the consultation "welcomes" views on whether a slower rate e.g. 5% might be more appropriate).
In addition, if the number of installations exceeds 125% of the expected number of installations this will automatically trigger a further reduction in the FIT with two months notice. DECC will publish the expected number of installation figures in advance (although it isn't clear to me how far in advance or how these figures will be calculated).
If you need to get planning permission, DNO approval for >16amp installations, or bring your property up to EPC D, you could very easily find yourself getting a lower FIT than expected if such a two month notice period is triggered whilst you are waiting for permissions or other insulation work to be completed!
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OP
sambotc
We therefore propose that we should consider reducing the tariff lifetime for new
PV entrants to the FITs scheme, from the date of implementation of Phase 2A,
from 25 to 20 years. At any given tariff rate, a shorter tariff lifetime would reduce
implicit rates of return, though not to a great extent. For example, we calculate
that, other things being equal, the rate of return on a • 4kW installation attracting
a tariff of 15.7p would reduce from around 5.8% to around 5.2%.
PV entrants to the FITs scheme, from the date of implementation of Phase 2A,
from 25 to 20 years. At any given tariff rate, a shorter tariff lifetime would reduce
implicit rates of return, though not to a great extent. For example, we calculate
that, other things being equal, the rate of return on a • 4kW installation attracting
a tariff of 15.7p would reduce from around 5.8% to around 5.2%.
OP
sambotc
Recognising that the conclusion may be that maintaining some form of
index-linking remains appropriate, we are also interested in views (as an
alternative) about whether some kind of modification might be made to the way in
which that index-linking is done. For instance, in view of recent moves in other
schemes (e.g. pensions) from using the Retail Price Index (RPI) to using the
Consumer Price Index (CPI) as a basis for calculations, one option might be to
make the same change in FITs. We may also wish to consider whether tariffs
should be index-linked only for a certain number of years after accreditation
index-linking remains appropriate, we are also interested in views (as an
alternative) about whether some kind of modification might be made to the way in
which that index-linking is done. For instance, in view of recent moves in other
schemes (e.g. pensions) from using the Retail Price Index (RPI) to using the
Consumer Price Index (CPI) as a basis for calculations, one option might be to
make the same change in FITs. We may also wish to consider whether tariffs
should be index-linked only for a certain number of years after accreditation
OP
TedM
DECC's proposals for this are mind-boggling. Tariffs could be changing almost constantly i.e. the two-month notice periods can overlap.
Last edited by a moderator:
Here's a paragraph I originally missed about the export tariff (currently 3.1p)
"At the start of the scheme it was foreshadowed that changes to export tariffs would apply to all generators. However, existing tariffs are based on the assumption of the current level of the export tariff. An increase to the export tariff could therefore potentially provide a windfall gain to existing generators, who would continue to receive the benefit of a high generation tariff. We therefore propose that any change to the level of export tariffs would apply only to new entrants to the FITs scheme."
"At the start of the scheme it was foreshadowed that changes to export tariffs would apply to all generators. However, existing tariffs are based on the assumption of the current level of the export tariff. An increase to the export tariff could therefore potentially provide a windfall gain to existing generators, who would continue to receive the benefit of a high generation tariff. We therefore propose that any change to the level of export tariffs would apply only to new entrants to the FITs scheme."
Just to translate Barker's tweet ("Looking forward to sharing ambitious new plans for #FiTs with both Industry, & Parliament later today. Bigger scheme, better value!")
ambitious - complex and unworkable
bigger scheme - we ran out of money so had to fudge the budget by moving money from the RO budget to the FIT budget to compensate but this is "purely a technical adjustment and makes no difference to the actual amount of subsidy available"
better value - swinging cuts
OP
FIT-PV
I'm So gonna retweet this!
OP
pjcomp
Typical government/civil service snafu - overcomplicated system which will confuse everyone. They try to please all sides and end up making it unworkable. How are we supposed to give a customer a returns forescast when DECC can change the rules apparently on a whim?
PJ
PJ
Well, you'll just have to tell them that the forecast is only valid for a very short period, and that really if they want to be assured of that forecast, then they should sign the contract right now or they might lose out. Sorry, what was that about pressure selling...
OP
richlatham
So just to clarify - installations after 12th December 2011 and BEFORE 3rd March 2012 will still attract a FIT rate of 43p, subject to the Government not going to the Supreme Court, or losing at the Supreme Court.
Am I right?
Am I right?
OP
synergy power
I can accept the tariff being 21p, although i think this 10% drop every 6 months is too much! I mean yes the price of Solar has come down but it can only go down so far....
Also, am i right by saying for a customer to claim the Feed-in Tariff Grant after the 1st April 2012 they will need to have an EPC rating of D, or is that just for the Green Deal?
Also, am i right by saying for a customer to claim the Feed-in Tariff Grant after the 1st April 2012 they will need to have an EPC rating of D, or is that just for the Green Deal?
OP
TedM
Yes, that's right. DECC have until 22/2 to apply to Supreme Court.
OP
TedM
To get full rate they will need to supply an EPC 'D' (at least) when they apply for a FiTs contract with an electricity supplier. If they do not provide one then they will be on 9p for 25 years.
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OP
synergy power
Surely a lot of the cowboy Solar PV installers will just sign any house off to have an EPC rating of D or higher!?
OP
Noshocks
Can anyone post a list of the basic requirements to achieve a D rating?
OP
FIT-PV
Does the EPC rating just apply to installations of <4kw
- Reaction score
- 267
It wont be that easy as the epc needs to be registered with a governing body like stroma etc
OP
Earthstore
Hell...
I consider myself to be reasonably bright, I have followed this whole FIT shambles, more or less on a daily basis, and from different sources too, (but TedM is top man), and more or less I could figure out what to tell customers.
Having just read this thread, to be honest, I have not got a clue what the hell it is.
I am aware that we are in limbo land at this moment in time, court dates etc, but they could not have made the thing more complicated if they had tried.
To tell any industry that their profits will be cut by 10% every 6 months, but could be sooner than that, plus you have to try and get a customer houses to level D of the EPC just so you can fit a PV system with next to no profit in anyway..
Our FIT system was modeled on the German one, which has been running 12 yrs+, did they have all of this within 2 years of it starting??
My belief is that Government/big six do not want a solar industry..
I consider myself to be reasonably bright, I have followed this whole FIT shambles, more or less on a daily basis, and from different sources too, (but TedM is top man), and more or less I could figure out what to tell customers.
Having just read this thread, to be honest, I have not got a clue what the hell it is.
I am aware that we are in limbo land at this moment in time, court dates etc, but they could not have made the thing more complicated if they had tried.
To tell any industry that their profits will be cut by 10% every 6 months, but could be sooner than that, plus you have to try and get a customer houses to level D of the EPC just so you can fit a PV system with next to no profit in anyway..
Our FIT system was modeled on the German one, which has been running 12 yrs+, did they have all of this within 2 years of it starting??
My belief is that Government/big six do not want a solar industry..
It does not work like that basicly it is one big SAP calculation and everything from house age to light bulbs are taken into account.
My house is a higher D
No loft insulation
Double glazed windows
No energy Efficent bulbs
1965 bulit
Etc etc
I did and epc on a house built 1892 it got a lower D
So I think thats the good news
I have been on DEA course and soon will be accredited to under EPC's so if you require a EPC & survey in one hit give us a shout NORTH WEST mind
OP
TedM
It's not straight-forward as it depends on many things which are added up on a points system, but the basics would be cavity wall insulation, 300mm loft insulation, modern condensing gas boiler and low energy lighting.
To get a 'D' you need at least 55 points out of 100 (more or less).
DECC say that 51% of all dwellings currently are at least a 'D'.
There is also an exemption for certain buildings that cannot get an EPC at all, but no details on that yet. Also for agricultural buildings where the PV might be on a barn roof, the EPC rating will be for the farmhouse (assuming the electric is connected there).
OP
TedM
Places of worship are excluded from being required to have an EPC (for the main purposes of needing an EPC in the first place - outside FiTs), but that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't need one just to claim higher FiTs rates. There is an exemption from the EPC 'D' condition for those buildings where it can be proved that it is impossible to obtain an EPC. How you do this I don't know yet, but I would guess you would need to provide a statement to that effect from one, or maybe more, DEAs.
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- Reaction score
- 205
Isn't a DEA supposed to be for Domestic properties only? To my mind that means a place where someone lives. Would a place of worship (or a school or a supermarket) be classed as such or would you need an NDEA to provide an EPC?
OP
SRE
I reckon you're going to have to be an independant financial adviser to do surveys next!
Are we seeing any exclusions anywhere for rural, non gas areas? Almost every job we do is off the gas grid and using oil or lpg in houses built over 100 years ago. When I was doing DEA training 4 years ago they were achieving top of E at best! These are the houses that really need the pv.
Are we seeing any exclusions anywhere for rural, non gas areas? Almost every job we do is off the gas grid and using oil or lpg in houses built over 100 years ago. When I was doing DEA training 4 years ago they were achieving top of E at best! These are the houses that really need the pv.
- Reaction score
- 205
Here's our new hero telling us all about it:
Ed Davey message on Feed-in Tariff scheme changes - YouTube
Ed Davey message on Feed-in Tariff scheme changes - YouTube
OP
finchy
Been out the loop today and have read the entire Thread, very informative ! However I conclude the government hasn't address the uncertainty in the Solar PV industry, just made it a whole lot complicated ! Alas we will try our best to carve a living from an industry which I'm passionate about !
OP
SRE
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=14246B0206B8C2B3&id=14246B0206B8C2B3!107 thought this was a good overview. Looking forward to installing 4kwp for between 3.5 and 4.5k in 2015 - should be simples - in BARKING WORLD!
OP
Earthstore
Thanks for the link, he makes it sound so easy, maybe he should come with one of us and explain it to the customers how easy it is...
OP
SRE
I must be a bit dense with maths ... how does increasing oil costs make cheaper panels once the over supply has been resolved and how do I ask my roofers and scaffolders to reduce their costs by 50% so that I can make a charitable contribution to nearby houses by installing at 4.5k. We'll be sending kids up the chimney again soon.
How on earth are you going to be able to cover overheads, most of which are generated as a result of the ridiculous bodies - MCS, NICEIC, REAL and now DEA certificates when "sales" are going to need to be below the cost of the materials?
Not so much a sharp intake of breath as no breath at all - pv dead!
How on earth are you going to be able to cover overheads, most of which are generated as a result of the ridiculous bodies - MCS, NICEIC, REAL and now DEA certificates when "sales" are going to need to be below the cost of the materials?
Not so much a sharp intake of breath as no breath at all - pv dead!
OP
synergy power
What i don't think the government understands is that the prices cant keep going down, it will come to a point where the materials are at there lowest price, the roofers and electricians aren't going to lower their price (Why should they have to!) and we will be left with a couple of hundred quid for doing the job!!
I personally think current solar PV pricing is reasonable for both the consumer and also for the installer. If it goes down any lower serious corners will have to be cut to make a living out of this industry!!
- Reaction score
- 723
Livid.
What am I supposed to do on my surveys after April 1st? Bring a DEA with me? Who pays for the report? When does the report get done? Is it worth training to become a DEA?
The amount of time wasted on pointless surveys will be immense after April 1st.
We will struggle on for a couple of months after April 1st but if the market goes like I expect, then I'm coming out of it. I have other plans to keep my business going and I will fall back to solar if and when things change.
Nothing is worth the stress of waiting for these incessant announcements from the 'greenest government ever' and the subsequent panic that it creates.
What am I supposed to do on my surveys after April 1st? Bring a DEA with me? Who pays for the report? When does the report get done? Is it worth training to become a DEA?
The amount of time wasted on pointless surveys will be immense after April 1st.
We will struggle on for a couple of months after April 1st but if the market goes like I expect, then I'm coming out of it. I have other plans to keep my business going and I will fall back to solar if and when things change.
Nothing is worth the stress of waiting for these incessant announcements from the 'greenest government ever' and the subsequent panic that it creates.
- Reaction score
- 267
Anyone who believes there is a future for this industry is smoking something I haven't for thirty years (for the industry) (for the spliff) that should have been
(for the industry) (for the spliff) that should have been
OP
SRE
So, to try and draw some conlusions about the whole EPC carry on (not that any of our houses will achieve that!) has anyone worked out how we know what rating the house is at survey without doing the EPC?
Chris - hate to put even more of a damper on it but you can't do your own EPC's you'll need someone to do them for you.
Is anyone finding any positives we can hang on to?
Chris - hate to put even more of a damper on it but you can't do your own EPC's you'll need someone to do them for you.
Is anyone finding any positives we can hang on to?
Solar pv only adds two or three points anyway !!!!
OP
SRE
How many installations is 150-200mw and how does that compare with November last year?
OP
trevor79
One serious effect of DECC's price cutting will be quality systems, fitted to high standards will be not economic to do!
I don't see all the people involved in a PV job taking a 50% cut in wages along with further cuts going forward.
Our industry being treated like this is beyond a joke:joker:
I don't see all the people involved in a PV job taking a 50% cut in wages along with further cuts going forward.
Our industry being treated like this is beyond a joke:joker:
Reply to Announcement "later today!" in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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