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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
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all ways a bright side. Didn't know you're a fair weather landy'er!
I see April onwards full of time wasting surveys and no work coming off the back of it. Ok D is better but until the finer details of this is sorted and more knowledge is gained on what is and what isn't then it's still an issue. The proposed FiTS reduction every 6 months which could also be determined by how much has been installed is a further kick. Throw a six to start scenario. And then to lose five years return! I just don't understand the thinking.
Time to get the confirmed jobs we have done and then reasses what to do. I'm leaning towards playing the field for about six months before re-inspection and fees are due and analyise what the market is. I think I know where it's going but only time will tell.
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Gavin did I read elsewhere that you think this puts the industry on a firm footing and that 13.5p is workable? for the life of me I cant see how.
Whatever does the BPVA do to it's members and more importantly how are they able to speak for us the vast majority of the industry that want nothing to do with them
T
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S
Good luck, as you say take it while you can. Imagine having no fees or hassle from MCS or REAL .....
See Sun Lounge for some price speculation.
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E
Well loons future may be well and truly secure..
How many years for perverting the course of justice?
T
My conjecture on the future sales process:
Until an EPC is done you will not know what the rating is for the house (you might guess but you won't know for certain).
It might be a 'D' to start with in which case no further changes will be required. Just go ahead with the PV and get the 21p. If might be an 'E' and the EPC tells you that adding 3kW (or whatever) of PV will take you to a 'D' so no other improvements will be required.
If it is an 'E', or worse, and the PV alone won't bring it up to a 'D' then the owner will have to decide if the work on the deficiencies, which will be listed as 'recommendations' on the EPC, to bring it up to a 'D' or better is worth the effort/cost. They might decide that it is not worth it for PV.
If going ahead with improvements and PV then the owner will need a second EPC to prove that the new rating has been achieved once the work is complete. This new EPC has to be submitted with their FiTs application to their electricity supplier in order to get the full tariff. Without it, at the time of application, they will be on 9p for the next 25 years.
Some houses that start as an 'F' or 'G' may not be possible to bring up to a 'D' in any economic way. These owners will most likely decide not to have PV.
And all this work needs to be completed within a 2 month window (from 1st July).
I'm not sure how installers will approach this. A couple of options (at extremes) are:
a - installer requires the owner to get an EPC completed before even carrying out their initial survey. If this is less than 'D' then owner will have to commit to improvements before PV survey. If 'D' or better then carry on as now. Owner has to stump up the initial £50 or so cost of an EPC before they have their PV survey (which could tell them that their house is not suitable for PV in any case). Quoting will be for a range of prices/ROIs which will depend on work being done within 2 months or not.
b - installer performs (or arranges) EPC as part of initial survey and swallows the cost. If it is worse than 'D' then arranges improvements at owners cost. Then installs PV - all for an inclusive price.
I'm sure there are many other options too in between these extreme approaches, but there will be potential delays at each step of the process unless you get a system in place that runs like clockwork. Companies that do this will be OK, others will be more likely to fail.
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S
Absolutely. This is another aspect which has no doubt been ignored by DECC.
I wonder what will happen if, in 6 months time, the uptake is so small that the targets look clearly unreachable. Will they change the targets or the tariffs?
T
Discuss Announcement "later today!" in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
OP
powervan
not been on for a while lads! just got reminder for REAL membership its not gonna happen!! this 13.6p or best 16.5p WHO out there thinks they can firstly SELL it and then make any money ?????
its not gonna happen!! this 13.6p or best 16.5p WHO out there thinks they can firstly SELL it and then make any money ?????
OP
finchy
now thats daft - I can see these independants EPC people being King pin and talking our customers into another installer and getting a nice kick back !
- Reaction score
- 723
There was definitely a sharp intake of breath from me when I heard the news.... so that my corollary shriek of "DESPAIR" had more chance of being heard by my neighbours.
Just like there would be a sharp drawing back of my right foot if I ever met Mr Barker.... just before I kick his jaw bone clean off.
Just like there would be a sharp drawing back of my right foot if I ever met Mr Barker.... just before I kick his jaw bone clean off.
OP
SRE
I noticed that he only retweets comments from companies sucking up to him. Not the unbiased approach that we're used to from the government :13:
- Reaction score
- 267
So those with social housing contracts are likely to be still whistling long after we cant hear the tune. I wonder if they're the ones doing the sucking......................up. Bloody gerbil keepers
OP
moggy1968
well, thats that then, I'm cancelling my assessment in march.
Does anyone know If I haven't renewed my REAl can I still regisater jobs until the cut off for my assessment runs out? My year was up in nov but I beleieve I am allowed 120 days grace.
got some jobs booked in for feb so need to know if I can register them.
Does anyone know If I haven't renewed my REAl can I still regisater jobs until the cut off for my assessment runs out? My year was up in nov but I beleieve I am allowed 120 days grace.
got some jobs booked in for feb so need to know if I can register them.
OP
powervan
ive only got one job to register end of next week so i will just tell them im giving it up after that! if they want to charge me for 2 months membership then thats fine!! (got to be the end of PV) 13p )))))))
)))))))
OP
moggy1968
yep, I can't see a future for the industry with this deal, which paves the way for Barking to role out a solar farm scheme involving the big six to satisfy our renewables targets, and who will pay for that, us of course, with all the costs of planning objections and the Goverments inability to run anything in any kind of financially efficient manner.
OP
SRE
Greg Barker on Itv 1 now
OP
moggy1968
Markc
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- Reaction score
- 147
all ways a bright side. Didn't know you're a fair weather landy'er!
I see April onwards full of time wasting surveys and no work coming off the back of it. Ok D is better but until the finer details of this is sorted and more knowledge is gained on what is and what isn't then it's still an issue. The proposed FiTS reduction every 6 months which could also be determined by how much has been installed is a further kick. Throw a six to start scenario. And then to lose five years return! I just don't understand the thinking.
Time to get the confirmed jobs we have done and then reasses what to do. I'm leaning towards playing the field for about six months before re-inspection and fees are due and analyise what the market is. I think I know where it's going but only time will tell.
OP
moggy1968
If your registration inspection isn't due you may as well hang on, mine is booked for march so I'll have to cancel it. I can always do it all again later if I think it's worth it, but at the moment I think those rates are unworkable. Why would someone put that kind of money in for a 5-6% return, You can get that in decent investments and get your capital back. it's madness.
OP
Noddy67
10.10 in the evening and I've just read through the entire thread (thanks for all those who precis'd this so well for those of us who go wobbly at the first sentence of a government report.
What struck me is the tone from start to finish- the hopeful "what's going to happen today" early on turned into "look at this bit, what does this mean" which in the last few hours has turned into "that's it. we're screwed". And I'm sad to say I think the industry is doomed.
There were times when 43p was hard going (ffs). 21p worked, if you were south facing and got the full array up. So add to that an EPC conversation (not necessarily the rating but the conversation you'll had to have with the client), take it down to 15p, explain the rates are less and only for 20 years. Oh and now for the 10% of people who'll still be interested put 10 times more competition, you've got a industry in deep deep trouble.
And as the electricians put more energy into traditional electrical work that market gets tougher too.
Bright side? The paperwork can go hang, money saved on MCS and REAl and erm, that's it.
What struck me is the tone from start to finish- the hopeful "what's going to happen today" early on turned into "look at this bit, what does this mean" which in the last few hours has turned into "that's it. we're screwed". And I'm sad to say I think the industry is doomed.
There were times when 43p was hard going (ffs). 21p worked, if you were south facing and got the full array up. So add to that an EPC conversation (not necessarily the rating but the conversation you'll had to have with the client), take it down to 15p, explain the rates are less and only for 20 years. Oh and now for the 10% of people who'll still be interested put 10 times more competition, you've got a industry in deep deep trouble.
And as the electricians put more energy into traditional electrical work that market gets tougher too.
Bright side? The paperwork can go hang, money saved on MCS and REAl and erm, that's it.
- Reaction score
- 267
And we've yet to factor in the likely cost of having to jump through another hoop "the green screw"
Markc
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- Reaction score
- 147
The annoying thing is we can see this yet those who have no idea are the ones pulling the strings! Our voice just isn't heard or is heard but ignored. There's no way the proposed is going to aid the industry and make it available to all rather than a chosen view. With all these proposals and changes, dates moving back and forth and then add in the total disregard given by the nationals (anyone else see today's Sun?) on selling a 43p rate that officially doesn't exist at this time then the government might as well pull the plug entirely and have zero incentive. At least anyone looking into PV will be doing it to save a polar bear!
I've stuck up a summary of the confirmed FIT changes for solar PV >here< for anyone who's having trouble wading through the documents.
If anyone spots any mistakes, please let me know. Thanks
If anyone spots any mistakes, please let me know. Thanks
Leeds Solar's response to these changesLeeds Solar welcomes the clarity that comes from these announcements, and are broadly in agreement with the final outcome of this consultation.We thank DECC for listening to the industries concerns relating to the EPC band C proposal, and hope the additional changes being consulted upon will provide some long term certainty and clarity for the industry even if they involve challenging reductions in the FIT rates payable.
We're confident that we can continue to install solar PV at increasing rates under the FIT rates now scheduled to be in place until July, and look forward to the challenge of ensuring the houses we install on meet the band D energy efficiency requirements.We need to fully analyse the new proposals for further scheduled Feed In Tariff reductions and other changes, but our initial analysis indicates that we should be able to cope with them without too many problems.
heres a few errors I spotted
ARE YOU SMOKING SAME STUFF AS THE BARKING MAD
I agree that the long term effort is to bring pv to a stage that is afforable without the fits but PRICES wont drop to that stage by 2015 with the rates of 16p - 7.7p
cuts to fast again in my eyes ... I think the D rating is not a problem but intrest from a customers point will be a BIG problem....
We're confident that we can continue to install solar PV at increasing rates under the FIT rates now scheduled to be in place until July, and look forward to the challenge of ensuring the houses we install on meet the band D energy efficiency requirements.We need to fully analyse the new proposals for further scheduled Feed In Tariff reductions and other changes, but our initial analysis indicates that we should be able to cope with them without too many problems.
heres a few errors I spotted
ARE YOU SMOKING SAME STUFF AS THE BARKING MAD
I agree that the long term effort is to bring pv to a stage that is afforable without the fits but PRICES wont drop to that stage by 2015 with the rates of 16p - 7.7p
cuts to fast again in my eyes ... I think the D rating is not a problem but intrest from a customers point will be a BIG problem....
OP
Noddy67
Another typo spotted: "We thank DECC for listening..."
OP
SRE
D is for disaster for us! Rural, solid wall properties with oil/solid fuel heating - no chance of getting a d rating.
OP
finchy
Do you recon we could organise a Q&A conference with Greg and the members of this forum. To be honest we are the true voice of the industry, F88k all those trade associations and QANGOS !
I'm sure it would be civilaised, and atleast we can get clarity from the horses mouth. A consulatation should be a working group which we can have at the same time ! Has anyone got his number ....
I'm sure it would be civilaised, and atleast we can get clarity from the horses mouth. A consulatation should be a working group which we can have at the same time ! Has anyone got his number ....
- Reaction score
- 267
Gavin did I read elsewhere that you think this puts the industry on a firm footing and that 13.5p is workable? for the life of me I cant see how.
Whatever does the BPVA do to it's members and more importantly how are they able to speak for us the vast majority of the industry that want nothing to do with them
OP
TedM
Some of the reasons are covered in the consultation response doc. And there is more in the 2B consultation doc in regards to EPCs for non-PV FiTs.
OP
powervan
I have been asked by a company to instal/register there systems ! £1000 per install (scaffold provided) and they say they will have no problem selling pv as they offer the full service ie heat pumps/solar and thermal! they said i dont need to carry on with mcs as they are getting accredited for solar next month so at £1000 and no come backs i think thats as good as it gets now! so there is hope even at 16p but im glad im not trying to sell it and i wont need to listen to my inspector ANYMORE ))
))so there system prices must be high if they to add a £1000 to sub it
so they must be selling a 4kw at 10k - 11k at 16p that would not sell unless the calculations Bo**ocks
at 8.5k its just gets 10% 11% ROI at 21p
so at 16p at 10k whats that 4%-5% ROI ??
4kw will have to sell at less than 7k to get good ROI at 16P so that 1k your getting wont last long
but I hope its does work for you bud.
they must be getting old grannys in head locks !
so they must be selling a 4kw at 10k - 11k at 16p that would not sell unless the calculations Bo**ocks
at 8.5k its just gets 10% 11% ROI at 21p
so at 16p at 10k whats that 4%-5% ROI ??
4kw will have to sell at less than 7k to get good ROI at 16P so that 1k your getting wont last long
but I hope its does work for you bud.
they must be getting old grannys in head locks !
OP
powervan
well i will grab it while its there!! thought it was all over!! SAN FRAN CISCO her i COME!!!!
OP
SRE
Good luck, as you say take it while you can. Imagine having no fees or hassle from MCS or REAL .....
See Sun Lounge for some price speculation.
OP
SRE
Talking through the possibilities of getting D rating today. If you can achieve a d rating with simple installation - have you ever tried to get an insulation firm to come round???? I managed 4 for a few years and it's almost impossible.
So, its April - your customer needs cwi but will reach the d rating or above with it. They arrange for a cwi survey, then installation - meanwhile you wait, and wait and wait for them to get back to you in June to push for an installation before the end of the month and the drop from 21p to 13.6p.
It's going to be carnage .... Need to get everyone geared up now BUT we've no idea how the EPC rating is going to be managed. Has anyone heard what we actually have to do????
So, its April - your customer needs cwi but will reach the d rating or above with it. They arrange for a cwi survey, then installation - meanwhile you wait, and wait and wait for them to get back to you in June to push for an installation before the end of the month and the drop from 21p to 13.6p.
It's going to be carnage .... Need to get everyone geared up now BUT we've no idea how the EPC rating is going to be managed. Has anyone heard what we actually have to do????
OP
moggy1968
it's the kind of shambles that could only be dreamt up by some complete idiot sitting in an ivory tower completely detached from reality.
But of course, we'd never vote someone like that into power, would we?
But of course, we'd never vote someone like that into power, would we?
OP
trevor79
I think it is the big energy companies protecting their market from independent power generation, DECC are just doing what they are told!
Bloody monopolies
Bloody monopolies
OP
moggy1968
totally agree
And Barking and Loon setting themselves up with a secure future
And Barking and Loon setting themselves up with a secure future
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
Earthstore
Well loons future may be well and truly secure..
How many years for perverting the course of justice?
Markc
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- Reaction score
- 147
I think this sums it up! Email received doing the rounds.
Makes you think !
Makes you think !
Can you imagine working for a company that only has a little more than 635 employees, but, has the following employee statistics..
29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
9 have been accused of writing bad cheques
17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year
and collectively, this year alone, they have cost the British tax payer £92,993,748 in
expenses!!!
Which organisation is this?
It's the 635 members of the House of Commons.
The same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.
What a bunch of crooks we have running our country - it says it all...
And just to top all that they probably have the best 'corporate' pension scheme in the country - whilst trying to ensure that everyone else has the worst possible!!
If you agree that this is an appalling state of affairs, please pass it on to everyone you know
29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
9 have been accused of writing bad cheques
17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year
and collectively, this year alone, they have cost the British tax payer £92,993,748 in
expenses!!!
Which organisation is this?
It's the 635 members of the House of Commons.
The same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.
What a bunch of crooks we have running our country - it says it all...
And just to top all that they probably have the best 'corporate' pension scheme in the country - whilst trying to ensure that everyone else has the worst possible!!
If you agree that this is an appalling state of affairs, please pass it on to everyone you know
- Reaction score
- 723
- Reaction score
- 267
I was thinking the same. Where did you get this info from mark.
OP
TedM
My conjecture on the future sales process:
Until an EPC is done you will not know what the rating is for the house (you might guess but you won't know for certain).
It might be a 'D' to start with in which case no further changes will be required. Just go ahead with the PV and get the 21p. If might be an 'E' and the EPC tells you that adding 3kW (or whatever) of PV will take you to a 'D' so no other improvements will be required.
If it is an 'E', or worse, and the PV alone won't bring it up to a 'D' then the owner will have to decide if the work on the deficiencies, which will be listed as 'recommendations' on the EPC, to bring it up to a 'D' or better is worth the effort/cost. They might decide that it is not worth it for PV.
If going ahead with improvements and PV then the owner will need a second EPC to prove that the new rating has been achieved once the work is complete. This new EPC has to be submitted with their FiTs application to their electricity supplier in order to get the full tariff. Without it, at the time of application, they will be on 9p for the next 25 years.
Some houses that start as an 'F' or 'G' may not be possible to bring up to a 'D' in any economic way. These owners will most likely decide not to have PV.
And all this work needs to be completed within a 2 month window (from 1st July).
I'm not sure how installers will approach this. A couple of options (at extremes) are:
a - installer requires the owner to get an EPC completed before even carrying out their initial survey. If this is less than 'D' then owner will have to commit to improvements before PV survey. If 'D' or better then carry on as now. Owner has to stump up the initial £50 or so cost of an EPC before they have their PV survey (which could tell them that their house is not suitable for PV in any case). Quoting will be for a range of prices/ROIs which will depend on work being done within 2 months or not.
b - installer performs (or arranges) EPC as part of initial survey and swallows the cost. If it is worse than 'D' then arranges improvements at owners cost. Then installs PV - all for an inclusive price.
I'm sure there are many other options too in between these extreme approaches, but there will be potential delays at each step of the process unless you get a system in place that runs like clockwork. Companies that do this will be OK, others will be more likely to fail.
OP
finchy
Cheers for that Ted M ! This all sounds very complicated and I'm sure REAL and MCS would add some additional hurdle !
How can a hard working honest pv company survive, we would scare the customers off before they get started. It all plays very well into the double Glazing crocks hands ! Solar pv will be swallowed up into bigg energy improvement firms what can offer (will push) a complete service. Eg get your home from a E to an A and save xx per year plus generate your own power!
How can a hard working honest pv company survive, we would scare the customers off before they get started. It all plays very well into the double Glazing crocks hands ! Solar pv will be swallowed up into bigg energy improvement firms what can offer (will push) a complete service. Eg get your home from a E to an A and save xx per year plus generate your own power!
OP
SRE
This just seems to be getting more complicated the more you look at it. If it's complicated for us it's got to be a big turn off for all but the most determined customers ....
- Reaction score
- 723
Absolutely. This is another aspect which has no doubt been ignored by DECC.
I wonder what will happen if, in 6 months time, the uptake is so small that the targets look clearly unreachable. Will they change the targets or the tariffs?
OP
TedM
Another few thoughts.
- EPCs are valid for ten years from date of issue (rumours that this will be cut)
- EPCs became mandatory in about 2007 (different times depending on no. of bedrooms)
- anyone who has bought their house (new or secondhand) since 2007 should have a valid EPC already from that
- talk to DEAs in your area and offer them a joint deal. You should be able to negotiate a discount on their price if you can offer them a certain amount of work
- make sure you work with a DEA you feel you can trust
- EPCs are valid for ten years from date of issue (rumours that this will be cut)
- EPCs became mandatory in about 2007 (different times depending on no. of bedrooms)
- anyone who has bought their house (new or secondhand) since 2007 should have a valid EPC already from that
- talk to DEAs in your area and offer them a joint deal. You should be able to negotiate a discount on their price if you can offer them a certain amount of work
- make sure you work with a DEA you feel you can trust
Reply to Announcement "later today!" in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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