any use in looking for an employer to put me through the NVQ?

[slippydippy]

i'm currently in a position alot of people are in, im 22 and currently hold the level 3 2365 and have about a year of industrial electrical experience.

my current company isn't really working out, and i really want to go for the NVQ. alot of the portfolio and the AM2 seem a bit intimatading, the idea of trying to fill everything while labouring as a mate seems like a tall order given you need to do everything in a year and half and there aren't to many companies that do everything. there are however occasionally apprentecip positions that pop up, obviously a company that offers one will be able to support me through the portfolio, but would they even bother taking on someone my age who has already completed college? Taking a smaller sallery would be totally fine for me, i just need to be working under a company that does the relivent work for the AM2 and NVQ.

my assumption is that this doesnt really happen and companies generally hire younger folk as they are cheaper and they get the tax breaks/levvys that come with hiring an apprentice

is my only real option working as a mate, company hopping and trying to fill everything in? or is there a realistic possibility of me finding an employer that can put me through an NVQ

any advice on the above would be great, cheers.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Have a look on twitter for Mark from Aprentice 121 he has many employers looking ofr apprentices/trainees and he would surely have contacts on your area for companies looking to recurit people in your position

https://twitter.com/electrician_247

Apprentice121

t.co

 

[swaRRR]

Don't look for an apprenticeship, you would have to redo your 2365.

 

[Lister1987]

Don't look for an apprenticeship, you would have to redo your 2365.

No he wouldn't as module's from the 2365 can be mapped over to the apprenticeship and so he would not be doing it all again

See;

http://cdn.cityandguilds.com/ProductDocuments/Building_Services_Industry/Electrical_Installation/2365/Centre_documents/2365_Assessment_Amendments_FAQs_Oct_17.pdf

Electrotech apprenticeship qualification

City & Guilds Electrotech apprenticeship qualification qualifications. Leading vocational education and training organisation.

www.cityandguilds.com

 

[swaRRR]

No he wouldn't as module's from the 2365 can be mapped over to the apprenticeship and so he would not be doing it all again

See;

http://cdn.cityandguilds.com/ProductDocuments/Building_Services_Industry/Electrical_Installation/2365/Centre_documents/2365_Assessment_Amendments_FAQs_Oct_17.pdf

Electrotech apprenticeship qualification

City & Guilds Electrotech apprenticeship qualification qualifications. Leading vocational education and training organisation.

www.cityandguilds.com

View attachment 99713View attachment 99714View attachment 99715

What i meant was if you do an official apprenticeship you still have to do 3 years before you can be considered qualified and this includes going back to college for 2 of them.

I know three adult learners who have had to do this exact thing despite two of them having the 2365 level 3 already and the other having level 2.

 

[Lister1987]

What i meant was if you do an official apprenticeship you still have to do 3 years before you can be considered qualified and this includes going back to college for 2 of them.

I know three adult learners who have had to do this exact thing despite two of them having the 2365 level 3 already and the other having level 2.

That will down to the employer/college wanting to get the whole apprentice levy, NOT C&G, in fact such practice should be reported to them as it is not in the spirit of the scheme.

 

[swaRRR]

That will down to the employer/college wanting to get the whole apprentice levy, NOT C&G, in fact such practice should be reported to them as it is not in the spirit of the scheme.

You still have to go to college whether you are switching over or not though.

I don't see the point of going and doing an apprenticeship for poor money when you already hold the qualification that apprentices get after 2 years at college and you have good experience in the industrial sector.

It would be an apprenticeship in name only because it would be obvious you never did a real one - how long would this 'apprenticeship' even last in such a circumstance? You come in with Level 3, do 6 months on site to get your NVQ completed and now suddenly you 'did an apprenticeship'? I don't see how that would stack up for employers. It would mean you could do a 6 week course then spend 6 months getting a portfolio done whilst working under a company saying you did an apprenticeship and get the same as someone who did day release for 4 years.

Or do you still have to do the 4 years but on site? I know my apprenticeship dictated a minimum of 42 months.

Either way, it's less money, no prestige, time sink...seems pointless.

A much, much better way is to go on and get work as an improver. FWIW, i'm an 'improver' because i don't have my NVQ and i'm on more than a lot of sparks i know. Taking a pay cut for an 'apprenticeship' makes no sense - we go to work for money and i'm already on what a lot of electricians are on and more, so why take that backwards step when i can be out right now grafting for decent money? Ditching my apprenticeship that i was being paid slave wages for was the best thing i ever did, especially since you get taught by muppets most of the time, if they even bother to teach you anything at all.

 

[C_1993]

Is it possible to go on site as a mate/ improver while studying a level 2?

 

[swaRRR]

Is it possible to go on site as a mate/ improver while studying a level 2?

I'm an 'improver' and not got any level, just my 18th edition.

I'm also on more money than the electricians at the place i started at - achieved by moving jobs a lot.

 

[C_1993]

I'm an 'improver' and not got any level, just my 18th edition.

I'm also on more money than the electricians at the place i started at - achieved by moving jobs a lot.

How do the find the teaching aspect of it? as I was looking for an apprenticeship but I keep getting overlooked maybe due to age, I've had a few months work in domestic properties during my early 20's.

Did you need a full set of tools? Also are you looking to go an an adult evening course? As I was hoping to do the apprenticeship so I wouldn't have to pay

 

[swaRRR]

How do the find the teaching aspect of it?

Poor, both at work and college. At work as soon as they can see you're OK at taking instruction they leave you to do work alone.

At college they didn't know anything about the practical side of the job.

Did you need a full set of tools?

You'll need all the basic handtools and some powertools.

I'd say the must haves are:

1. Voltage test leads, up to 400v. Essential.
2. Hand drivers, PZ, PH, slotted of various sizes.
3. Tape, knife.
4. Side cutters.
5. Needle nose pliers.
6. File.
7. Hacksaw.

Also are you looking to go an an adult evening course? As I was hoping to do the apprenticeship so I wouldn't have to pay

Nah, they're too expensive and lead to little real-world knowledge or experience.

I'm gearing up for my 2391 and then i'm gonna do my Experienced Worker NVQ.

 

[C_1993]

Poor, both at work and college. At work as soon as they can see you're OK at taking instruction they leave you to do work alone.

At college they didn't know anything about the practical side of the job.

You'll need all the basic handtools and some powertools.

I'd say the must haves are:

1. Voltage test leads, up to 400v. Essential.
2. Hand drivers, PZ, PH, slotted of various sizes.
3. Tape, knife.
4. Side cutters.
5. Needle nose pliers.
6. File.
7. Hacksaw.

Nah, they're too expensive and lead to little real-world knowledge or experience.

I'm gearing up for my 2391 and then i'm gonna do my Experienced Worker NVQ.

So the learning aspect as a mate in not that good so I'm assuming I would have to learn quick from who ever I'm working. So are you telling me it is not worth doing a level 2 and 3 course? As I thought you would have to do this then the nvq and then the am2 to be fully qualified then I can get a gold card?

 

[swaRRR]

So the learning aspect as a mate in not that good so I'm assuming I would have to learn quick from who ever I'm working. So are you telling me it is not worth doing a level 2 and 3 course? As I thought you would have to do this then the nvq and then the am2 to be fully qualified then I can get a gold card?

If you've not got 5 years experience you need a Level 3 to be able to go onto NVQ. If you have you can get it without the Level 3.

In my opinion the Level 3 is a waste of money UNLESS it's going to get your your NVQ quicker.

 

[Lister1987]

You still have to go to college whether you are switching over or not though.

I don't see the point of going and doing an apprenticeship for poor money when you already hold the qualification that apprentices get after 2 years at college and you have good experience in the industrial sector.

It would be an apprenticeship in name only because it would be obvious you never did a real one - how long would this 'apprenticeship' even last in such a circumstance? You come in with Level 3, do 6 months on site to get your NVQ completed and now suddenly you 'did an apprenticeship'? I don't see how that would stack up for employers. It would mean you could do a 6 week course then spend 6 months getting a portfolio done whilst working under a company saying you did an apprenticeship and get the same as someone who did day release for 4 years.

Or do you still have to do the 4 years but on site? I know my apprenticeship dictated a minimum of 42 months.

Either way, it's less money, no prestige, time sink...seems pointless.

A much, much better way is to go on and get work as an improver. FWIW, i'm an 'improver' because i don't have my NVQ and i'm on more than a lot of sparks i know. Taking a pay cut for an 'apprenticeship' makes no sense - we go to work for money and i'm already on what a lot of electricians are on and more, so why take that backwards step when i can be out right now grafting for decent money? Ditching my apprenticeship that i was being paid slave wages for was the best thing i ever did, especially since you get taught by muppets most of the time, if they even bother to teach you anything at all.

The only real selling point is that with the level 2 (behind you/in your pocket) you effectively bypass the apprenticeship wage and start on NLW for your age bracket, the biggest drawback is the uptake for those wanting to 'flip' is poor as employers want the levies and the year of cheaper labour, not that I'm a cynic.

 

[davesparks]

Poor, both at work and college. At work as soon as they can see you're OK at taking instruction they leave you to do work alone.

It's a shame you've had a bad experience but please don't tar us all with the same brush, some of us do our best to help and support people who are learning.

At college they didn't know anything about the practical side of the job.

The college side isn't there to teach practical skills, it is there to teach theory, science and regulations.

 

[swaRRR]

It's a shame you've had a bad experience but please don't tar us all with the same brush, some of us do our best to help and support people who are learning.

He asked how i found it so i gave my personal experience.

The college side isn't there to teach practical skills, it is there to teach theory, science and regulations.

I didn't say they were there to teach it, i said they didn't know anything about it. They would make statements about what you were and weren't allowed to do on site which were often wrong. One guy was convinced you weren't allowed to screw into steel beams because it would 'weaken' them and therefore you were never allowed to run cabling of any sort down anything but unistrut. The lads who were working knew he was full of it, but the college kids fresh out of school were being taught nonsense.

Also the science and theory isn't taught on a practical basis. They don't teach you how to apply the knowledge to make sensible choices at work, they teach it you from a purely book perspective. I passed science and principles but i'm fairly certain i'm never going to need to calculate the effect gravity is having on a load being moved to top scaffolding lifts via a stacker truck motor.

 

[Aaron b]

In my opinion the Level 3 is a waste of money UNLESS it's going to get your your NVQ quicker.

2391 and then i'm gonna do my Experienced Worker NVQ.

I'm pretty sure you need technical qualifications such as the City & Guilds 2360, 2351, 2330 or 2365 before you can enroll on the 2346 course.

 

[davesparks]

They would make statements about what you were and weren't allowed to do on site which were often wrong. One guy was convinced you weren't allowed to screw into steel beams because it would 'weaken' them and therefore you were never allowed to run cabling of any sort down anything but unistrut.

Obviously he is partially correct as you cannot just drill or screw into a steel beam anywhere you like, and holes in the wrong place in a steel beam can weaken it or start cracks.

 

[swaRRR]

I'm pretty sure you need technical qualifications such as the City & Guilds 2360, 2351, 2330 or 2365 before you can enroll on the 2346 course.

You need 5 years experience and you have to pass a skills scan and have your 18th edition and 2391-50 before the end of the NVQ for it to be signed off.

 

[Aaron b]

You need 5 years experience and you have to pass a skills scan and have your 18th edition and 2391-50 before the end of the NVQ for it to be signed off.

Perhaps you will blag that too but NET requires a level 2 or 3 qualification. You can't complete the 2346 without an AM2E.

 

[swaRRR]

requires a level 2 or 3 qualification.

Not true at all. Google 'experienced worker route' all the information is there. And yes you're right, at the end you must also do an AM2.

The info is exactly like i've said. You need to pass your initial verification and 18th edition before having the NVQ finalised. You need either a Level 3 qualification OR 5 years' experience to be able to do the NVQ. The Experienced Worker Route exists because it's specifically for those who don't have qualifications. Otherwise there'd be no need for it.

 

[Aaron b]

Not true at all. Google 'experienced worker route' all the information is there. And yes you're right, at the end you must also do an AM2.

The info is exactly like i've said. You need to pass your initial verification and 18th edition before having the NVQ finalised. You need either a Level 3 qualification OR 5 years' experience to be able to do the NVQ. The Experienced Worker Route exists because it's specifically for those who don't have qualifications. Otherwise there'd be no need for it.

It's for people that have a technical certificate but not completed an apprenticeship. I don't need to Google it. It's on the NET website! The 5 year experience isn't an option for the 2346 it's a requirement.

 

[swaRRR]

It's for people that have a technical certificate but not completed an apprenticeship. I don't need to Google it. It's on the NET website! The 5 year experience isn't an option for the 2346 it's a requirement.

Maybe you should google.

Experienced Worker Assessment | Electrotechnical Certification Scheme

The Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) accredits the qualifications and experience of workers in the electrotechnical industry

www.ecscard.org.uk

404 - Page Not Found | Electrotechnical Certification Scheme

The Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) accredits the qualifications and experience of workers in the electrotechnical industry

www.ecscard.org.uk

Please highlight where it says you need a level 3 technical cert (not including the 2391 which i've already stated you have to have before you can sign the NVQ off) to do this.

 

[Aaron b]

Maybe you should google.

Experienced Worker Assessment | Electrotechnical Certification Scheme

The Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) accredits the qualifications and experience of workers in the electrotechnical industry

www.ecscard.org.uk

404 - Page Not Found | Electrotechnical Certification Scheme

The Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) accredits the qualifications and experience of workers in the electrotechnical industry

www.ecscard.org.uk

Please highlight where it says you need a level 3 technical cert (not including the 2391 which i've already stated you have to have before you can sign the NVQ off) to do this.

I don't think arguing with you is helping the OP. You clearly know best!

 

[swaRRR]

I don't think arguing with you is helping the OP. You clearly know best!

In the interest of accurate information i'd still like you to post where it says what you were claiming.

 

[nicebutdim]

Perhaps you will blag that too but NET requires a level 2 or 3 qualification. You can't complete the 2346 without an AM2E.

He's right about not requiring a level 3 qualification for experienced worker route, but candidates must demonstrate knowledge, understanding and competence to the standard of the Level 3 apprenticeship. As you rightly state, AM2E is a requirement for completion and, similar to apprenticeship candidates, should weed out any who have managed to bluff their way to that point.


Edit: I should add that experienced worker assessment can be undertaken through a number of bodies, so it's quite possible that entry requirements are not the same for all of them.

 

[Aaron b]

He's right about not requiring a level 3 qualification for experienced worker route, but candidates must demonstrate knowledge, understanding and competence to the standard of the Level 3 apprenticeship. As you rightly state, AM2E is a requirement for completion and, similar to apprenticeship candidates, should weed out any who have managed to bluff their way to that point.

I'm not quite sure what they mean but the NET website has this. As I said earlier perhaps if people are willing to lie they will be able to work around it. A lot of the providers mentioned a level 3. I can't see how you can show competency from working as a mate and not having any design responsibility.

Hopefully they tighten this back up.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm not quite sure what they mean but the NET website has this. As I said earlier perhaps if people are willing to lie they will be able to work around it. A lot of the providers mentioned a level 3. I can't see how you can show competency from working as a mate and not having any design responsibility.

Hopefully they tighten this back up.

About two weeks in to my apprenticeship, I was pulled into an office with my tutor and head of department and asked about my experience as they seemed to think the experienced worker route would have been a better option.

I was straight with them and told them that I had a fair bit of experience, but also huge gaps in my knowledge, and that it would have been difficult to prove that experience. After some back and forth, they eventually decided that an apprenticeship was indeed the correct option, but I could see the opportunity existed to take the experienced worker route. What it came down to for me was the desire to learn as much as possible - obviously the majority of this takes place on site, but I don't want to find myself struggling on down the line with a weak grounding in theory. I'm 25 (edit: 30) years late to this and I'll be damned if I don't finish up in the strongest possible position, not having people look down at me for stumbling when the going becomes tough.

One thing I'm absolutely certain of is that I wouldn't have undertaken some of the work I've done this past few months, if I'd got a job as a mate and gone the college route.

Getting back on track; it was from the C&G website that I learned what I'd posted previously.

 

[swaRRR]

I'm not quite sure what they mean but the NET website has this. As I said earlier perhaps if people are willing to lie they will be able to work around it. A lot of the providers mentioned a level 3. I can't see how you can show competency from working as a mate and not having any design responsibility.

Hopefully they tighten this back up.

'Qualification OR personal statement.'

Fairly clear imo.

 

[nicebutdim]

'Qualification OR personal statement.'

Fairly clear imo.

I wouldn't be so quick with that statement.

While I can not attest to requirements laid down by each body involved with experienced worker assessments, C&G is quite clear on this point:

There are seven Level 3 Performance Units to be assessed before you can gain the Experienced Worker qualification:

• Apply Practices and Procedures for Maintenance
• Apply Health, Safety and Environmental Considerations
• Organise and Oversee the Electrical Work Environment
• Apply Design and Installation Practices and Procedures
• Terminate and Connect Conductors
• Inspect, Test and Commission Electrical Systems
• Apply Fault Diagnosis and Rectification

To pass these units, you must provide evidence from a site of your previous work to demonstrate you can fully meet the performance requirements of each unit.



Ultimately candidates will need to provide evidence of all requirements necessary to gain NVQ and they'll need to demonstrate aforementioned knowledge, understanding and competence in order to pass the AM2(E).

 

[swaRRR]

I wouldn't be so quick with that statement.

While I can not attest to requirements laid down by each body involved with experienced worker assessments, C&G is quite clear on this point:

There are seven Level 3 Performance Units to be assessed before you can gain the Experienced Worker qualification:

• Apply Practices and Procedures for Maintenance
• Apply Health, Safety and Environmental Considerations
• Organise and Oversee the Electrical Work Environment
• Apply Design and Installation Practices and Procedures
• Terminate and Connect Conductors
• Inspect, Test and Commission Electrical Systems
• Apply Fault Diagnosis and Rectification

To pass these units, you must provide evidence from a site of your previous work to demonstrate you can fully meet the performance requirements of each unit.



Ultimately candidates will need to provide evidence of all requirements necessary to gain NVQ and they'll need to demonstrate aforementioned knowledge, understanding and competence in order to pass the AM2(E).

That's what you need to pass the NVQ.

To do the NVQ you don't need to provide evidence. You need to pass a skills scan and interview.

 

[nicebutdim]

That's what you need to pass the NVQ.

To do the NVQ you don't need to provide evidence. You need to pass a skills scan and interview.

I'll repeat this line from C&G again as it seems to be very relevant to the discussion:

To pass these units, you must provide evidence from a site of your previous work to demonstrate you can fully meet the performance requirements of each unit.

 

[swaRRR]

I'll repeat this line from C&G again as it seems to be very relevant to the discussion:

To pass these units, you must provide evidence from a site of your previous work to demonstrate you can fully meet the performance requirements of each unit.

Well yeah that's what an NVQ is. Providing evidence of work you've done.

 

[nicebutdim]

Well yeah that's what an NVQ is. Providing evidence of work you've done.

The pertinent part being 'from your previous work'.