Anyone watched the TV documentary tonight about Heat Pumps and electricity supplies in general?

[pirate]

Seriously just wanting to have a discussion on this huge issue.
Clearly, there are not enough competent installers of heat pumps, so we may see some scheme whereby one can get "qualified" in a short time.
I have views on this, and I have views on everything the documentary covered, but my purpose is simply to stimulate debate.
Please let's discuss?

 

[plugsandsparks]

I have been surprised by the level of general ignorance of heat pumps, both within the general public and radio 4 and other political pundits. As i install A/C and heat pumps controls, i have witnessed a product which has always had a niche in the market now being hailed as the solution to all our heating needs. Its a big leap and whilst i do believe heat pumps do offer viable solutions in certain circumstances, it by no means is a solution to the vast majority of existing homes....... unless they are mandated.... which simply means they become a sub optimal solution to Natural gas. Certainly new homes could be designed to allow a heat pump to provide an acceptable level of comfort and function, but they will consume roughly an equivalent of energy cost similar to Oil or LPG. For them to compete with Natural Gas, either they need to be mandated or the cost of natural gas needs to rise significantly or the electricity costs need to fall comparable to Oil or LPG. As are current electrical generation is significantly provided by Natural gas it is hard to see how fitting a heat pump will provide a warm home at a lower cost than an NG boiler.
Clearly if electrical generation moved purely to nuclear or full renewables you could argue that the extra load created by heat pumps over NG is now fully green and an acceptable cost, sadly our local grid infrastructure is wholly inadequate to provide Heat pumps alone never mind car charging, it is somewhat of a game of chicken to see which organisation or government finally admits, this dream is impossible by 2035 or 2050 or whatever...

 

[ipf]

Seriously just wanting to have a discussion on this huge issue.
Clearly, there are not enough competent installers of heat pumps, so we may see some scheme whereby one can get "qualified" in a short time.
I have views on this, and I have views on everything the documentary covered, but my purpose is simply to stimulate debate.
Please let's discuss?

At getting on for 20k a pop, I'd like to know where is the market going to be for a massive bunch of half trained lackies to play havoc.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I watched around 15 mins of the programme tonight and what I hadn't realised to make a heat source ground pump effective you need to replace all your doors and windows , upgrade all your roof and wall insulation and install all new energy effective radiators.
Taking the average cost of install to £20,000.
Can't see £20,000 flying with many people at the minute with the cost of living crunch Crisis

 

[James]

I watched around 15 mins of the programme tonight and what I hadn't realised to make a heat source ground pump effective you need to replace all your doors and windows , upgrade all your roof and wall insulation and install all new energy effective radiators.
Taking the average cost of install to £20,000.
Can't see £20,000 flying with many people at the minute with the cost of living crunch Crisis

That sort of system really works well with new builds or a complete home renovation.
where top grade insulation and underfloor heating can be installed without too much disruption.
there are systems that will work with existing radiators or just slightly bigger ones using the same pipework but the efficiency drops as the heating loop temperature has to be higher.

 

[oscar21]

I know someone who has just fitted one to his own house, he is a plumber so is using it as his show job to enable him to be a registered fitter of them. I cant wait until the winter when he is crying over his massive electric bill.

You don't get anything for nothing, not in this life.

 

[James]

They can be the most efficient way to heat a home. yes the electric bill will go up but the gas bill should go down by more.
and you are missing the point, you do get something for nothing.

If you did a bit of research, you would find that for every 1kw/h of gas used, a central heating boiler is likely to deliver between 600 and 800w of heat into the home.

A heat pump is normally in the region of 1Kw electricity in, around 4 to 5Kw of heat delivered to the house.

 

[nicebutdim]

I know someone who has just fitted one to his own house, he is a plumber so is using it as his show job to enable him to be a registered fitter of them. I cant wait until the winter when he is crying over his massive electric bill.

You don't get anything for nothing, not in this life.

Think of all the remedial work you get, following behind his installations.

 

[oscar21]

They can be the most efficient way to heat a home. yes the electric bill will go up but the gas bill should go down by more.
and you are missing the point, you do get something for nothing.

If you did a bit of research, you would find that for every 1kw/h of gas used, a central heating boiler is likely to deliver between 600 and 800w of heat into the home.

A heat pump is normally in the region of 1Kw electricity in, around 4 to 5Kw of heat delivered to the house.

That's only the theory though. In reality everything I've ever seen offering something for nothing has never worked in reality, I've seen so many "next big things" in my life that you tend to take everything you hear about with a pinch of salt.

There was a big housing estate built near me a few years ago, purpose built to be eco friendly with all supposed modern money saving devices. The people that rented them couldn't wait to get out after six months, they said the electric bills were crippling them. It was such a disaster that it made parliament.

Before.

Families learn to live with nature

INNOVATIVE, groundbreaking and thoughtful are just a few of the words used to describe Stamford Brook - "eco friendly" homes in Altrincham.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

After

Heat is on for eco estate

FLAGSHIP eco homes in Broadheath may not be as green as first hoped, according to a government report. Stamford Brook was dubbed a model of environmentally friendly living when it was built two years ago.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2012-1435/StamfordBrook.pdf

I'll believe it if I ever see it.

 

[plugsandsparks]

They can be the most efficient way to heat a home. yes the electric bill will go up but the gas bill should go down by more.
and you are missing the point, you do get something for nothing.

If you did a bit of research, you would find that for every 1kw/h of gas used, a central heating boiler is likely to deliver between 600 and 800w of heat into the home.

A heat pump is normally in the region of 1Kw electricity in, around 4 to 5Kw of heat delivered to the house.

Seriously ? - Even a 5 year old gas boiler delivers 95% efficiency, i know cos i measure them, dont need research, i actually see it on my meter, lol - as for claimed HP efficiency, even GSHPs struggle with a cop of 3.
Just download the efficiency curves for any ASHP or GSHP, you will be shocked when you see how the COP changes with output temperature, never mind outside or ground temps, people simply do not understand this stuff, its very worrying....
It reminds me of the Induction Hob saleman saying how efficient their hob is over gas, maybe but the electricity cost is 6 times higher than gas,

 

[jedisparks]

Around 2016'ish one of my clients had an ASHP installed to heat their drafty old farm house. He called me a couple of years after to ask if I could look at his electricity meter. His leccy bill had racked up £5k for an 18 month period. Hate to think what it is now. Combination of thinking he could save some polar bears and getting bad advice.

 

[DPG]

Around 2016'ish one of my clients had an ASHP installed to heat their drafty old farm house. He called me a couple of years after to ask if I could look at his electricity meter. His leccy bill had racked up £5k for an 18 month period. Hate to think what it is now. Combination of thinking he could save some polar bears and getting bad advice.

Yeah that's just someone who's been ripped off unfortunately. Look at people who have had a decent install done in a modern well insulated house.

 

[jedisparks]

Yeah that's just someone who's been ripped off unfortunately. Look at people who have had a decent install done in a modern well insulated house.

He was ripped off. I felt sorry for him, he thought he was doing the right thing.


More recently, I looked at an EV charger job. Client had an ASAP installed previous year. The contractor replaced the CU whilst there. On a TT system a dual RCD with circuits run off a couple of non RCD protected ways. One of which fed a metal sub DB. The CU change was rough too. This was one of the big local green tech firms. I declined the EV job.

I wonder if old housing stock can be sufficiently insulated for HPs to be effective. There's a heck of a lot out there.

 

[ferg]

I think ASHP can be good under the right circumstances.
As mentioned previously a great deal of the housing in the UK is nowhere near well insulated enough.

I'm not sure how easy / possible it is to upgrade the insulation for older houses to the point where an ASHP is the best option.

If moving away from gas and oil is where we are heading then I think there is a lot more to be done than just chucking in ASHP's everywhere.

Moving away from gas and oil is a massive undertaking and will most likely require more than one solution, new technology and a great deal of compromise.

I can't help wondering if we have become a little spoilt in terms of heating houses to 22c relatively cheaply instead of putting on a jumper etc.

Recent energy costs are perhaps highlighting how wasteful our current housing stock is in terms of heating. Those with lower incomes tend to live in lower quality, in terms of insulation, housing and are less able to fork out the 10's of thousands required to become more efficient.
That leaves the government to foot the massive bill in one way or another.

I'm not sure if there is any new technology in the pipeline to address the issues but there is nothing I'm aware of which just leaves enormous expenditure and upheaval.

By the same token I absolutely think that it's the right thing to do.

In short no answers and lots of questions just like most people.

 

[pirate]

I also agree that heat pumps only work well with properly insulated buildings, and they are expensive. My pal was being persuaded to fit one in her cottage, with a grant of £5k. She would have needed her existing radiators upgraded, new, larger bore pipework PLUS a new hot water cylinder with immersion heater to top up the temperature, at a cost to her of about £15k. I suggested that £15k would buy a lot of heating oil, especially as she only uses about £750/year. Doing the maths, she decided that the huge upheaval for the heat pump installation wasn't worth it, because by the time she had used the £15k worth of oil she'd probably be dead! She decided to go a few more holidays instead! Her neighbour has a heat pump, and the fan noise is annoying too. Considering that a large sector of the population live in flats, heat pumps are not really viable for them either. I'm all-electric, or at least my flat is, and I'm quite happy with that.

 

[DPG]

I also agree that heat pumps only work well with properly insulated buildings, and they are expensive. My pal was being persuaded to fit one in her cottage, with a grant of £5k. She would have needed her existing radiators upgraded, new, larger bore pipework PLUS a new hot water cylinder with immersion heater to top up the temperature, at a cost to her of about £15k. I suggested that £15k would buy a lot of heating oil, especially as she only uses about £750/year. Doing the maths, she decided that the huge upheaval for the heat pump installation wasn't worth it, because by the time she had used the £15k worth of oil she'd probably be dead! She decided to go a few more holidays instead! Her neighbour has a heat pump, and the fan noise is annoying too. Considering that a large sector of the population live in flats, heat pumps are not really viable for them either. I'm all-electric, or at least my flat is, and I'm quite happy with that.

Interesting point re the noise.

 

[pirate]

The usual problem is that the neighbour doesn't hear his fan, but my pal does. It's not that intrusive but it's just "there", so she is aware of it on quiet days and evenings, which are frequent as she lives in a farm steading conversion in the country. I suggested she stick a lollipop stick in the grille, like we did with our bikes when kids, so he would hear it and switch off...but hey, good neighbours are a blessing!