Bonding dilemma

[growler]

So I turned up to a job today to install an electric heating system for a company I sub for and straight away found that there is no main bonding to either gas or water. They have recently had a new extension / kitchen and a new consumer unit ( no cert though). The gas bond is not an issue as the meter is located next to the consumer unit but the water bond is a fair distance away and the customer is adamant he doesn't want me to disrupt his house anymore than it is already. I can't just walk away either as their wet system Central heating has been removed and the couple are in there 70s.
what to do ?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

See post #85 if you don't understand the reason a main bond needs to be at the point of entry.

 

[Knobhead]

I always mark on the cert and board where the bonding is ,there are some houses you have not a clue where the incoming water is as there is no stop tap ,so there's a dilemma, if its accessible then its within 600mm , and belive you me i will go to every length possible to get it there, if its not then its where practical and note it on the Cert and board

That says it all, thank you

 

[Essex_]

I always mark on the cert and board where the bonding is ,there are some houses you have not a clue where the incoming water is as there is no stop tap ,so there's a dilemma, if its accessible then its within 600mm , and belive you me i will go to every length possible to get it there, if its not then its where practical and note it on the Cert and board

There is a specific part of the new amendment 3 certs for putting locations of bonding and special locations which now have to be listed.

 

[Knobhead]

See post #85 if you don't understand the reason a main bond needs to be at the point of entry.

Oh deary me, why don’t they teach electrical theory now.

Just because the IET say something is right it doesn’t make it right. They seem to think they can change the laws of physics for the convenience of the uneducated.

 

[GMES]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

Here you go Tony these might cheer you up if you're having a bad day

 

[telectrix]

the gorilla lives! flash is alive!

 

[Silly Sausage]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

Don't mention labels, you'll trip Eng's Labels sensor.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

We know!

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

Sorry Chief, my psychic powers aren't working today.

 

[Darkwood]

On the note of bonding ... and reminded me by Tonys csa of the copper pipe....consider a commercial or industrial set-up with a TNCS supply that would to reg's require a 50mm earthing conductor to ensure any network faults could piggy back the pipework if necessary - if point of bonding etc is attached or the incoming service is small in nature then the pipe itself is not sufficient to meet the required size - what to do?

 

[Biff61]

Would seem your relating to the OP specific circumstances, the thread has developed since then and thus I was talking in general terms and not the OP's situe.. we seem to be both expressing the same message from different angles but your previous post was a little ambiguous and suggested you could write away a responsibility just because the customer has been informed 'well that's how it read to me' , from this post it seems thats not what you were meaning so seems we do agree after all. :stooge_curly:

Am on the same page, but I feel there is too much of an onus on sparks coming in on a recent install to fix the omissions and mistakes of the muppet who originally did the install without getting paid for it because the regs state it should be done.
If it was a quick fix and it was only a bonding strap and a couple of meters of cable I would do it no problem, but when it means that you have to spend time and money and the client does not want to pay for it then its a different matter.
It would be helpful if we had some form of check list like you get with your MOT, any faults found have to be rectified before the vehicle is fit for purpose.The MOT centre once it gives you this list has passed its duty of care and if you then decide to drive then any accidents that can be seen to be caused by the list of defects given to you are your fault.
The same should be with wiring, give the owner a list of the defects that have to be rectified and a good reason why they must be corrected before you commence any work, and if they give the go ahead ensure you are paid for it.

I work for a global Humanitarian agency through out East and Central Africa, the nightmares i see every day would make your hair stand, getting materials is a lengthy process so when I have to remedy any work it can take a long time,in the meantime I usually have to try and make the installation as safe as I can possibly do.
The local sparks are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, standards do not exist, bonding and earthing "what's that?"
practical skills,
ok list of the things Ive seen
Drilling steel with the drill on hammer
Unable to put an SDS bit in the drill.
Using a blowtorch to heat 20mm PVC to bend, without a spring, and the spring is sitting there beside him.
twisting and taping cables from 1.5 to 120sq to make a join.
Using a hammer to put on lugs
A spirit level is non existent.
Just spent this morning teaching the contractors we have in to install new UPS powered sockets and LAN cable how to cut and bend cable tray.
I have one guy who takes the word hack in hacksawliterally, he would be better off with an Axe.

If they have training, it has been two years in college learning theory, which they are good at but a lot of my time is spent teaching the basics of practical work, and they will still revert to the old practices if you do not keep on their necks.
if I was able to upload pictures it would explain an awful lot, but it asks for an URL, anyone one know how I can upload straight from my pics folder.

New building codes are being introduced here in Ethiopia, the are adapted and adopted from the IEEE, Canadian and Australian regs, but they are only as good if they are implemented.

 

[Darkwood]

I think your missing the point, we are not just talking about a minor deviation/omission here we are talking about the earthing system (safety net) of the install,it was at one point just a precaution regarding the possibility of touch voltage PD between services and earthed points usually during a fault but with the introduction of PME/TNCS the extra concern of network issues where your pipework may become the return path for a E/N fault. This situe' has only been more so highlighted by the spate of cable theft where the earthtap of the 11kv Tx's were been pinched leaving many houses with dangerous and damaging floating neutrals - this is where the bonding can reflect its importance.

Your experience with other nations and their practices and regulations seems to have made you slightly complacent to the importance of bonding when it is required over here in the U of K .... you need to realise that this importance is drilled into us at college and anyone choosing to ignore it or make it optional is not a competent Electrician, we have a career of following in the footsteps of shoddy below standard or dated work so how is this any different to that, as i said 'If the main earth was missing then you wouldn't hesitate in putting it in' so why is the requirement of the bonding any different considering the job they do.

 

[Biff61]

my experience with other nations makes me even more aware of the requirement for correct earthing and bonding. On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs, I never compromise on safety.I ensure that any upgrade or new install is done according to 17th Edition.That is why I am employed, to ensure best practice and standards are met, there have been too many injuries, deaths and property damage caused by poor methods and no standards applied.
what I'm trying to get across is this,if you turn up at a customers premises you are not legally obliged to immediately fix the incorrect work of others, no one can hold a gun to your head and say you must do this or else, you have the right to walk away.
The requirement for bonding is sacrosanct I agree and it must be done.
However, if you do take on the job, then you must do it for your installation to comply, no ifs or buts about it.

 

[Darkwood]

my experience with other nations makes me even more aware of the requirement for correct earthing and bonding. On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs, I never compromise on safety.I ensure that any upgrade or new install is done according to 17th Edition.That is why I am employed, to ensure best practice and standards are met, there have been too many injuries, deaths and property damage caused by poor methods and no standards applied.
what I'm trying to get across is this,if you turn up at a customers premises you are not legally obliged to immediately fix the incorrect work of others, no one can hold a gun to your head and say you must do this or else, you have the right to walk away.
The requirement for bonding is sacrosanct I agree and it must be done.
However, if you do take on the job, then you must do it for your installation to comply, no ifs or buts about it.

I never disputed that point and have always agreed ... if the customer is not willing to pay or refuses to have it done then just walk away .. If you go ahead and do any work the you will be required to address any earthingbonding issues that are considered a hazard before you sign off your work.

 

[Octopus]

I never disputed that point and have always agreed ... if the customer is not willing to pay or refuses to have it done then just walk away ..If you go aheadand do any work the you will be required to address any earthingbonding issues that are considered a hazard before you sign off your work.

And the number of prosecutions for failing to do this this are?

 

[Darkwood]

And the number of prosecutions for failing to do this this are?

This is an empty point you make, yes the circumstances to all come together and a fatality to occur are very rare but never the less they exist in a big enough risk catagory to warrant the IET to make it part of the regulations, where ever we see regulations of such nature then there is usually a valid reason for their implementation, I have seen 1 customer and 1 plumber receive nasty shocks off pipework due to floating PD in my 25yr career that could have been avoided but through lack of compliance or aged install it was the case they were put at risk...

I sleep well at night knowing I have made sure the earthing set-up is at least functional if existing or upgraded if substandard, it does not loose me work and I've never really been turned down because I have shown it needs doing, anyone with good communication skills would not have a problem steering the customer to having the extra work done.

 

[Octopus]

This is an empty point you make, yes the circumstances to all come together and a fatality to occur are very rare but never the less they exist in a big enough risk catagory to warrant the IET to make it part of the regulations, where ever we see regulations of such nature then there is usually a valid reason for their implementation, I have seen 1 customer and 1 plumber receive nasty shocks off pipework due to floating PD in my 25yr career that could have been avoided but through lack of compliance or aged install it was the case they were put at risk...

I sleep well at night knowing I have made sure the earthing set-up is at least functional if existing or upgraded if substandard, it does not loose me work and I've never really been turned down because I have shown it needs doing, anyone with good communication skills would not have a problem steering the customer to having the extra work done.

??????

 

[Darkwood]

??????

Sorry thought it was clear what I meant... when I say empty point I meant it should bear no relevance on the debate as to how many people get caught and prosecuted be it 0 or 100's, its about been professional and doing the right thing on a matter which is about the safety of your customers and the integrity of the earthing system.

The lack of prosecutions can be down to many issues but mainly its the small number of fatalities in the first place plus the difficulty of proving what may have been a short lived fault be it consumer or network that may have contributed to the death.

In 2010 in the UK the number of shock related fatalities in domestic was about 20 so out of a population of about 70million this is exceptionally small yet 2.5million are documented to have received a shock of which 350,000 was serious with burns etc... the chance that not addressing the lack of bonding in a house ending you up in court is smaller than your chances of winning the lottery but the point is its not a matter of whether your risking ending up in court its about the duty of care you have for the safety of your customer, its an attitude to your work ethic here not an issue of the risk you might end up before a jury, thats why I said your point you made was an empty one.

Looking at the stats Im pretty confident that out of the 2.5million there's going to be some that are attributed to missing equipotential bonding.

Yes I may be a bit of a stickler on this particular point raised but it not like missing the sleeving off you switch wires is it ... its the safety net of the install.

 

[Deleted account]

It gets a bit tedious every time I have to explain to a customer the need to have eqipotential bonding fitted before I can do any work on there premises. Becoming a lecturer and explaining why is unfortunately nessisary if you want to secure the job.

However I hear tell of an amazing customer leaflet that exists for the customer explaining all this. I would love to get my hands on one. If I produced this leaflet it would save a little of the explaining and prove I wasn't lying and trying it on just to make a fast buck ( pound Stirling).

does anyone out there know of this or even better give me a link so I can see if for myself. I've tried the nic and iet sites with no luck.

 

[telectrix]

was from the electric al safety council, or somesuch. i tried to order some, but they say they are no longer available.

 

[Deleted account]

was from the electric al safety council, or somesuch. i tried to order some, but they say they are no longer available.

Bugger

thanks anyway

 

[Jonspark]

It gets a bit tedious every time I have to explain to a customer the need to have eqipotential bonding fitted before I can do any work on there premises. Becoming a lecturer and explaining why is unfortunately nessisary if you want to secure the job.

However I hear tell of an amazing customer leaflet that exists for the customer explaining all this. I would love to get my hands on one. If I produced this leaflet it would save a little of the explaining and prove I wasn't lying and trying it on just to make a fast buck ( pound Stirling).

does anyone out there know of this or even better give me a link so I can see if for myself. I've tried the nic and iet sites with no luck.

print a copy of this and carry it with you to show customers
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/mediafile/100126678/best-Practice-Guide-4.pdf

 

[Deleted account]

print a copy of this and carry it with you to show customers
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/mediafile/100126678/best-Practice-Guide-4.pdf

Nice guide and something a will print off, I fact I just have. But I was looking for something I bit more specific and basic for the customer.

thanks for the response. Really appreciated but does anyone else out there have anything.

 

[Jonspark]

Nice guide and something a will print off, I fact I just have. But I was looking for something I bit more specific and basic for the customer.

thanks for the response. Really appreciated but does anyone else out there have anything.

just show em page 12!

 

[Engineer54]

On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs

So what sort of installation are we talking about here?? I hope it's a profitable concern, and worth the amount of money you've spent on creating this earth field??

Are you saying here that you mixed Salt, charcoal and Bentonite together??
Were these solid copper rods you talk about, direct driven into the ground??

 

[HandySparks]

Nice guide and something a will print off, I fact I just have. But I was looking for something I bit more specific and basic for the customer.

thanks for the response. Really appreciated but does anyone else out there have anything.

This page is similar to their printed leaflet:
Earthing and Bonding | Electrical Safety First

 

[GEOFF S]

Hope this helps

Protection against shock - IET Electrical

Cheers

 

[Leesparkykent]

I give these to the customer.

 

[Darkwood]

Looking at the links above they all support what I've been trying to get across from the off....

That you have a responsibilty to check that the earthing and bonding is adequate where required and must be rectified if you are doing any work no matter how minor.
That the purpose of Equipotential bonding is to remove any PD between adjacent conductive parts and not to carry fault currents (The circuit earthing conductor is designed for that purpose), although it may do so in the event that its a parallel path or the loss of a network Neutral in a PME/TNCS set-up.

All in all when it is required it is part of your duty to include it in your work if it is not adequate or is missing, failure to do so means your work cannot comply and you have failed in your primary duty of ensuring the safety of the install.

 

[Knobhead]

On the note of bonding ... and reminded me by Tonys csa of the copper pipe....consider a commercial or industrial set-up with a TNCS supply that would to reg's require a 50mm earthing conductor to ensure any network faults could piggy back the pipework if necessary - if point of bonding etc is attached or the incoming service is small in nature then the pipe itself is not sufficient to meet the required size - what to do?

This is from experience:

Industrial installations with a high gas consumption will be using steel pipe. It’s rare to find copper installed.

Everywhere I’ve worked a copper jumper would be fitted across every flange joint. Not just for gas but anything that could ignite. Electrical bonding was a secondary concern, static was our enemy. I’ve had some monumental expositions due to fitters not replacing the continuity jumpers. The plant was designed to withstand them but it was frightening non the less.

As for bonding back to the MET. A minimum of a 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] conductor to both ends of the feed pipe.

 

[Darkwood]

This is from experience:

Industrial installations with a high gas consumption will be using steel pipe. It’s rare to find copper installed.

Everywhere I’ve worked a copper jumper would be fitted across every flange joint. Not just for gas but anything that could ignite. Electrical bonding was a secondary concern, static was our enemy. I’ve had some monumental expositions due to fitters not replacing the continuity jumpers. The plant was designed to withstand them but it was frightening non the less.

As for bonding back to the MET. A minimum of a 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] conductor to both ends of the feed pipe.

The scenario I was thinking of was related to one of my customers 'Industrial' .. they had high electrical usage but very low gas and water and the water incoming was domestic size the gas was larger but at the other end of the building, so I bonded a 50mm earth to a 16mm water pipe on a tncs set-up this is where I scratch my balding head and think a Network fault would just destroy that pipe if it chose that path but yet nothing in any regulations to account for this scenario.....

 

[Knobhead]

The scenario I was thinking of was related to one of my customers 'Industrial' .. they had high electrical usage but very low gas and water and the water incoming was domestic size the gas was larger but at the other end of the building, so I bonded a 50mm earth to a 16mm water pipe on a tncs set-up this is where I scratch my balding head and think a Network fault would just destroy that pipe if it chose that path but yet nothing in any regulations to account for this scenario.....

OK I see your point now. Unfortunately it’s yet another example of how the IET recommendations are impractical or plain and simply wrong.

A 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] bond to a 22mm pipe isn’t exceeding the CSA of the pipe which is 53.28mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. A 15mm pipe and we’re in a different ball game, 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] bonding to a pipe of 35.69mm[SUP]2[/SUP] CSA is plainly ridiculous.

Unfortunately the IET comic book doesn’t allow for common sense to be applied.