Brick wall lights - SWA cable connections

[Neptune]

For various reasons out of my control, we have wound up in a situation where we have 1.5mm SWA cables buried in these pillars and exiting out of the plastic housing for the wall lights.

There are around 5 of these lights across the 5 pillars. Daisy chained with the 3 core SWA. As you can see, the wall ha snow bene plastered and finished. The house-end of this cable will be glanded into a Wiska box and punched into the house to connect to a Switched FCU.

The plastic housing set in the pillar is only deep enough to take the light!


The back of the plastic box has some screw holes for the light to fix to.

I am at a loss as to how I get these cables connected to the lights given the lack of space and hence, inability to gland these ends. If this were regular T&E it wouldn't have been an issue - from a space and connectivity point at least!

Can I please have some creative suggestions on how I get myself out of a hole. Thanks in advance.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Is there any space at all between the backbox and the body of the light?

 

[Neptune]

Is there any space at all between the backbox and the body of the light?

Maybe 10mm (probably a bit less) as the plaster had been added to the wall which means the light will be sitting a bit proud.

 

[suffolkspark]

What about brick sized surface lights you can get? You could then perhaps use a slim wiska box to loop in and out your swa tucked into those recesses, and flex to the light and put it over it. This kinda thing... ive used better looking ones before, i forget where from

 

[Neptune]

What about brick sized surface lights you can get? You could then perhaps use a slim wiska box to loop in and out your swa tucked into those recesses, and flex to the light and put it over it.

I did contemplate that. We now have 5 of the recessed lights which weren’t particularly cheap and can’t be returned as I have used the back box…
I did like the idea of recessed lights.

 

[mattg4321]

Can’t be done properly like that unfortunately.

 

[SJD]

Chase out a hole in the pillar behind the light fitting, deep enough for a Wiska box plus SWA glands?

 

[Neptune]

Chase out a hole in the pillar behind the light fitting, deep enough for a Wiska box plus SWA glands?

There is some space behind this plastic housing but I’m thinking, it’s going to be awkward to hollow out and how will I then work with the cable in he space behind there?

Also, is there a more compact option than then gland and wiska box as that may squeeze in behind the plastic housing?

Thanks for your help.

 

[nicebutdim]

Making space in those pillars is going to be the best option, no matter what way you choose to connect the lights.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Hi mate, have you changed planet?

 

[Neptune]

Hi mate, have you changed planet?

LMAO

 

[davesparks]

Well that's a beautiful bit of bad project management isn't it!

Get whoever decided to get it rendered before 1st fix was finished to hack the render off the pillar so it can be 1st fixed properly and then re-rendered.

 

[Neptune]

What about brick sized surface lights you can get? You could then perhaps use a slim wiska box to loop in and out your swa tucked into those recesses, and flex to the light and put it over it. This kinda thing... ive used better looking ones before, i forget where from

I have been reflecting on this and this is probably my best option. New surface lights can be very slim and not the bulkheads I initially had in my mind when considering this option. There also reasonably priced. Something like this may be:

BREEZ - Surface Mount LED Brick/Guide Light - Anthracite | Forum (CZ-29192-ATR)

Brick Black with White Diffuser IP44 Wall Recessed Light

Shop for the Oaks Lighting Brick Black with White Diffuser IP44 Wall Recessed Light 072 BK on The Online Lighting Store website.

theonlinelightingstore.co.uk

Does the housing space give me enough room for a mini wiska and 2 regular glands in your view?

 

[pirate]

The depth of that one you linked to is 7cm, according to the specs. What is the depth of the one you have?
Also, it states it uses a 60W SES lamp which may not be ideal.

 

[Neptune]

The depth of that one you linked to is 7cm, according to the specs. What is the depth of the one you have?
Also, it states it uses a 60W SES lamp which may not be ideal.

ah, didn't spot that! My current one is around 7cm too and is designed to be recessed.

May be something like this as it only has a 27mm depth and is surface mounted

BREEZ - Surface Mount LED Brick/Guide Light - Anthracite | Forum (CZ-29192-ATR)

 

[suffolkspark]

I did contemplate that. We now have 5 of the recessed lights which weren’t particularly cheap and can’t be returned as I have used the back box…
I did like the idea of recessed lights.

These can be had for sub £10 each, the ones i used were about 10mm deep thats all so barely stood off. Thats

I have been reflecting on this and this is probably my best option. New surface lights can be very slim and not the bulkheads I initially had in my mind when considering this option. There also reasonably priced. Something like this may be:

BREEZ - Surface Mount LED Brick/Guide Light - Anthracite | Forum (CZ-29192-ATR)

Brick Black with White Diffuser IP44 Wall Recessed Light

Shop for the Oaks Lighting Brick Black with White Diffuser IP44 Wall Recessed Light 072 BK on The Online Lighting Store website.

theonlinelightingstore.co.uk

Does the housing space give me enough room for a mini wiska and 2 regular glands in your view?

Just compare depth of those wiska boxs with what youve got in the wall, looks deep enough from photos, it's going to be fiddly but looks doable.

I have been reflecting on this and this is probably my best option. New surface lights can be very slim and not the bulkheads I initially had in my mind when considering this option. There also reasonably priced. Something like this may be:

BREEZ - Surface Mount LED Brick/Guide Light - Anthracite | Forum (CZ-29192-ATR)

Brick Black with White Diffuser IP44 Wall Recessed Light

Shop for the Oaks Lighting Brick Black with White Diffuser IP44 Wall Recessed Light 072 BK on The Online Lighting Store website.

theonlinelightingstore.co.uk

Does the housing space give me enough room for a mini wiska and 2 regular glands in your view?

This is a recessed fitting like you have already, cpc sell theirs or the eterna ones arent too bad, id think the wiska box will fit, measure the depth you have

 

[Neptune]

Just compare depth of those wiska boxs with what youve got in the wall, looks deep enough from photos, it's going to be fiddly but looks doable.

The plastic housing is a brick's width/height and 7.5cm deep.
A mini wiska box is 64mm deep/high.

Wiska COMBI 206/empty Junction box Black - 10109571

Wiska are a leading brand in the field of electrical installation, lighting, and marine applications. Their innovative and high-quality products are designed to meet the diverse needs of customers in various industries and are known for their durability, safety, and efficiency. Whether you need...

www.ledbulbs.co.uk

This doesn't leave enough room for the SWA glands if I try to insert them from the same end. Am I missing something?

 

[suffolkspark]

The plastic housing is a brick's width/height and 7.5cm deep.
A mini wiska box is 64mm deep/high.

Wiska COMBI 206/empty Junction box Black - 10109571

Wiska are a leading brand in the field of electrical installation, lighting, and marine applications. Their innovative and high-quality products are designed to meet the diverse needs of customers in various industries and are known for their durability, safety, and efficiency. Whether you need...

www.ledbulbs.co.uk

This doesn't leave enough room for the SWA glands if I try to insert them from the same end. Am I missing something?

In one end out the other, and use the brass single earth bars to pick up the armouring, probably dont need cw glands if you seal the light infront of it

 

[Neptune]

In one end out the other, and use the brass single earth bars to pick up the armouring, probably dont need cw glands if you seal the light infront of it

Appreciate your help with this.
What can I use instead of the CW Glands as they are too chunky and wont fit in the space available?

 

[suffolkspark]

Appreciate your help with this.
What can I use instead of the CW Glands as they are too chunky and wont fit in the space available?

Bw glands.

 

[oscar21]

Why are you titting around with glands, just treat the SWA as flex and terminate it as you would, if the SWA cable is in the wall cavity then it doesn't need the SWA protection anyway and it will still be armoured, just not earthed. The piece coming from the house or wherever can still be glanded I presume so that will satisfy the buried cable regulation.

When we wire brick lights, we just put in copex first and pull the flexthrough as we are doing the brick lights, it doesn't need any more than that.

 

[Neptune]

Why are you titting around with glands, just treat the SWA as flex and terminate it as you would, if the SWA cable is in the wall cavity then it doesn't need the SWA protection anyway and it will still be armoured, just not earthed. The piece coming from the house or wherever can still be glanded I presume so that will satisfy the buried cable regulation.

When we wire brick lights, we just put in copex first and pull the flexthrough as we are doing the brick lights, it doesn't need any more than that.

Now that is something I thought but dared not mention! From a practical point of view this would work and I can unsheath the cores, cut away the metal lining and slip straight into the light but thought that wasn't allowed? Do SWA cables not always have to be glanded? Also, will your approach risk the cores being damaged by the metal strands?

The house end is glanded and earthed.

Thanks for your support.

 

[oscar21]

I don't see a problem with it myself, maybe if you want to be super spark and do everything strictly by the book then maybe it should be terminated properly, but from a safety perspective, it will be absolutely fine, how is the flex terminated in these fittings, is it a pinching/stuffing gland and is there an in and out. In the past I've drilled a 20mm hole in these to add an extra stuffing gland when its only come with one.

 

[Neptune]

I don't see a problem with it myself, maybe if you want to be super spark and do everything strictly by the book then maybe it should be terminated properly, but from a safety perspective, it will be absolutely fine, how is the flex terminated in these fittings, is it a pinching/stuffing gland and is there an in and out. In the past I've drilled a 20mm hole in these to add an extra stuffing gland when its only come with one.

Here are pics from the back. It has a single entry point. It's got a rubber grommet.
Your suggested approach will mean that I cut back the outer, inner sheaths and metal strands (as deep as I can into the plastic housing). I can then push the two sets of L, N through this grommet and connect into the light. Perhaps I should put the two CPC's into a wago to maintain continuity?

 

[westward10]

What is on the other side of the wall.

Here are pics from the back. It has a single entry point. It's got a rubber grommet.
Your suggested approach will mean that I cut back the outer, inner sheaths and metal strands (as deep as I can into the plastic housing). I can then push the two sets of L, N through this grommet and connect into the light. Perhaps I should put the two CPC's into a wago to maintain continuity?

That sounds like a total bodge I'm afraid to say. Personally I think you are in a no win situation unless you can enlarge the hole or terminate the cables on the other side of the wall.

 

[Neptune]

terminate the cables on the other side of the wall.

The public footpath is on the other side of the wall.

 

[oscar21]

Here are pics from the back. It has a single entry point. It's got a rubber grommet.
Your suggested approach will mean that I cut back the outer, inner sheaths and metal strands (as deep as I can into the plastic housing). I can then push the two sets of L, N through this grommet and connect into the light. Perhaps I should put the two CPC's into a wago to maintain continuity?

Not quite if you cut the armoured bit back quite far you are left with the inner bit which is just like flex, although the sheath is a bit on the thin side, I was suggesting fit two stuffing glands into the light somewhere and clamp these onto where you cut the armoured strands so they are just inside the gland. Even if it was wired in flex I wouldn't trust that grommet to keep the water out, especially with two cables in it.

there must be room for a couple of small stuffing glands on that fitting somewhere, The last bit of 1.5 SWA I used was as thin as a piece of flex anyway.

 

[nicebutdim]

Is there a reason why some space could't be made above or below the light? This question has been asked more than once, but I don't see any meaningful response.

10 min per light with an SDS and cables could be made off properly, then a bit of Tuff sheath or HO7 brought through the rear in a single stuffing gland.

It would be as easy to do this right as mess about with less than ideal 'solutions'.

 

[DPG]

Why are you titting around with glands, just treat the SWA as flex and terminate it as you would, if the SWA cable is in the wall cavity then it doesn't need the SWA protection anyway and it will still be armoured, just not earthed. The piece coming from the house or wherever can still be glanded I presume so that will satisfy the buried cable regulation.

When we wire brick lights, we just put in copex first and pull the flexthrough as we are doing the brick lights, it doesn't need any more than that.

The armour must be earthed.

 

[littlespark]

Metal conduit “Y” box?

Two swa glands into one side… stuffing gland and flex into other…. Jointed in the box.

Lid on, drop into pillar…. Or is pillar not hollow?

 

[westward10]

Metal conduit “Y” box?

Two swa glands into one side… stuffing gland and flex into other…. Jointed in the box.

Lid on, drop into pillar…. Or is pillar not hollow?

I've a feeling @nicebutdim is chomping at the bit with his SDS to make the holes large enough

 

[oscar21]

The armour must be earthed.

There is no "must" about it, the regs are not a legal document, and what do you think will happen if it isn't earthed, the cable is buried in a brick wall, its not like it will get dug through with a spade like when its under a lawn. you could use flex in flexible conduit if you so wish which doesn't even have any armour yet if you use SWA which is essentialy just flex with steel armour round it then you have to earth the armour? It makes no sense.

Yes I know it probably says somewhere in the regs that whenever you use SWA it needs to be earthed, I'm not saying you are wrong but like I've said previously some people want to go to great lengths just to work religiously by the book and would even knock the wall down and start again just to accomplish this but there are others out there that work perfectly safely but a lot more practically.

 

[nicebutdim]

I've a feeling @nicebutdim is chomping at the bit with his SDS to make the holes large enough

I'm half thinking about booking flights, before this runs to a fifth page.

 

[DPG]

There is no "must" about it, the regs are not a legal document, and what do you think will happen if it isn't earthed, the cable is buried in a brick wall, its not like it will get dug through with a spade like when its under a lawn. you could use flex in flexible conduit if you so wish which doesn't even have any armour yet if you use SWA which is essentialy just flex with steel armour round it then you have to earth the armour? It makes no sense.

Yes I know it probably says somewhere in the regs that whenever you use SWA it needs to be earthed, I'm not saying you are wrong but like I've said previously some people want to go to great lengths just to work religiously by the book and would even knock the wall down and start again just to accomplish this but there are others out there that work perfectly safely but a lot more practically.

No decent electrician would leave the SWA armour unearthed. It's nothing to do with being a slave to the regs.

 

[littlespark]

Unearthed swa in the pillar will be fine, but what about between pillars?
In the ground…. Where someone could be forking around with, well, a fork…..
Or a spade.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I'm half thinking about booking flights, before this runs to a fifth page.

This topic has been running for a week elsewhere, they've been giving the OP the same answers for a while now. Terminating an armoured cable - https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/terminating-an-armoured-cable.612924/

Its another case of
to fail to plan means you plan to fail

 

[nicebutdim]

Unearthed swa in the pillar will be fine, but what about between pillars?
In the ground…. Where someone could be forking around with, well, a fork…..
Or a spade.

We read many posts about wiring regulations not being a statutory document, but perhaps we should view them as a convenient guide for the majority of us who can not possibly conceive of every eventuality.

 

[nicebutdim]

This topic has been running for a week elsewhere, they've been giving the OP the same answers for a while now. Terminating an armoured cable - https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/terminating-an-armoured-cable.612924/

Its another case of
to fail to plan means you plan to fail

Dear God.

It seems as though this is all to avoid digging the boxes back out which, given the 5mm of available space, is going to have to be done no matter what solution is decided on.

 

[loz2754]

SWA isn't just flex with steel armour and an outer sheath, as has been suggested. The stuff that covers the basic insulated cores is not to be considered a sheath, and in many cables it's just what is referred to as bedding. This bedding is often fragile and crumbles as you try to remove it. As such, it would not be ideal to try and use a stuffing gland around it to provide water ingress protection.
And the armour must be earthed, as already strenuously noted.

 

[Neptune]

Dear God.

It seems as though this is all to avoid digging the boxes back out which, given the 5mm of available space, is going to have to be done no matter what solution is decided on.

I am pivoting back to the idea of surface mounted lights and a Y-conduit with BC glands sitting in the current plastic housing. No digging or finishing required.

 

[Neptune]

What is on the other side of the wall.

The footpath and street

 

[westward10]

Doesn't matter what you do 12 months down the line half of them probably won't even be functional.

 

[Neptune]

Is there a reason why some space could't be made above or below the light? This question has been asked more than once, but I don't see any meaningful response.

10 min per light with an SDS and cables could be made off properly, then a bit of Tuff sheath or HO7 brought through the rear in a single stuffing gland.

It would be as easy to do this right as mess about with less than ideal 'solutions'.

I wanted to avoid having to make it good afterwards.

Also, the cable is buried in the construction of the wall. If we SDS’d above or below, it will need some digging before the cables can be released.

 

[Neptune]

Doesn't matter what you do 12 months down the line half of them probably won't even be functional.

How come?

 

[westward10]

How come?

Fact of life, put a light fitting into an external wall or floor and nature will see to it failing.

 

[nicebutdim]

I wanted to avoid having to make it good afterwards.

Also, the cable is buried in the construction of the wall. If we SDS’d above or below, it will need some digging before the cables can be released.

The box provides 5mm of space, so the choice is quite simple - dig them out or mount lights over these on the surface. None of the suggested solutions (good or bad) are going to work within 5mm confines.

 

[westward10]

I was working at a large school last week and three of the external stairways had brick lights, probably twelve in total and none functioned. Probably installed three years or so ago and for one the mcb bangs straight off.

 

[oscar21]

SWA isn't just flex with steel armour and an outer sheath, as has been suggested. The stuff that covers the basic insulated cores is not to be considered a sheath, and in many cables it's just what is referred to as bedding. This bedding is often fragile and crumbles as you try to remove it. As such, it would not be ideal to try and use a stuffing gland around it to provide water ingress protection.
And the armour must be earthed, as already strenuously noted.

Which is why I said the outer sheath goes into the stuffing gland, it clamps down onto the pvc outer, its just that the SWA bit isn't glanded to anything. You are aslo saying the SWA must be earthed, maybe you can tell me why it must, other than the regs saying it should. What possible scenario may happen if its not earthed, we are talking about a cable sandwiched in a brick wall here, not under a flower bed etc. Like I've said, I've done exactly the same thing with copex and flex which complies with every reg so why earth the SWA?

 

[DPG]

Which is why I said the outer sheath goes into the stuffing gland, it clamps down onto the pvc outer, its just that the SWA bit isn't glanded to anything. You are aslo saying the SWA must be earthed, maybe you can tell me why it must, other than the regs saying it should. What possible scenario may happen if its not earthed, we are talking about a cable sandwiched in a brick wall here, not under a flower bed etc. Like I've said, I've done exactly the same thing with copex and flex which complies with every reg so why earth the SWA?

If there is damage to the cable resulting in contact between a core and the steel armour then nothing will happen. The steel armour will be live and nothing will trip.

I think you must know this though.

 

[nicebutdim]

Which is why I said the outer sheath goes into the stuffing gland, it clamps down onto the pvc outer, its just that the SWA bit isn't glanded to anything. You are aslo saying the SWA must be earthed, maybe you can tell me why it must, other than the regs saying it should. What possible scenario may happen if its not earthed, we are talking about a cable sandwiched in a brick wall here, not under a flower bed etc. Like I've said, I've done exactly the same thing with copex and flex which complies with every reg so why earth the SWA?

Perhaps you mis-typed.

Here's your comment:

Not quite if you cut the armoured bit back quite far you are left with the inner bit which is just like flex, although the sheath is a bit on the thin side, I was suggesting fit two stuffing glands into the light somewhere and clamp these onto where you cut the armoured strands so they are just inside the gland. Even if it was wired in flex I wouldn't trust that grommet to keep the water out, especially with two cables in it.