Chasing cable in a ceiling

[Pat H]

Of course it all falls back on common sense. If a cables RCD protected then its protected even if we hang it under a circular saw blade. The 7671 regs are then just prescribing cabling procedures to avoid damaging cables. Safety has been ensured by the RCD. So its more about avoiding the issues damaging the cable will cause. But that is now included in the regs and regs are regs.

 

[Gigsy]

That is not the case at all.
Cables concealed in walls at a depth less than 50mm must be:
a) run in prescribed routes and
b) provided with RCD protection.
Providing RCD protection without running the cable in a prescribed route is not acceptable.
As has already been explained, there are no prescribed routes on a ceiling.

Not acceptable in who's opinion? The logic I am using to come to the conclusion that my work is safe is the following. 99.9% of the general population are not even aware of BS7671, wiring regulations. 99.99% of people are not aware of the prescribed zones, to which you refer. Therefore if it is considered to be safe to run a cable in a wall less than 50mm under plaster when protected by a RCD, then it must be considered safe to do the same in a ceiling. The argument that someone could drive a fixing into the cable therefore it is unsafe is negated with the argument that the same can happen in a wall. The argument that it is safe in a wall because they are in prescribed zones is negated by the argument that 99.99% of people are not aware of the prescribed zones.

Most people never consider where the cables are when hanging pictures and christmas decorations etc, out of thoes who do most people think that cables have to run vertically and almost nobody knows of the 150mm from the ceiling and out from corners zones.

 

[Gigsy]

On second thoughts I will swallow my pride and change the cable run, I will drill holes in the joists from below. Thank you everyone for your advice. You have been most helpful.

 

[Gigsy]

Of course it all falls back on common sense. If a cables RCD protected then its protected even if we hang it under a circular saw blade. The 7671 regs are then just prescribing cabling procedures to avoid damaging cables. Safety has been ensured by the RCD. So its more about avoiding the issues damaging the cable will cause. But that is now included in the regs and regs are regs.

I wanted to know if what i had done was safe and legal. To comply with legislation, my cable run has to be installed in such a way as to not cause fire or electrocution. The law does not say anything about avoiding the issues damaging the cable will cause.

 

[Pat H]

You are correct and BS 7671 isn't a statutory document so you aren't legally required to comply with it.
However failure to comply with the BS 7671 recommendations can leave you liable to prosecution under other legislation that points to BS7671.
And I do believe that to meet building regs in acceptable way you have to comply with BS7671.

 

[Gigsy]

You are correct and BS 7671 isn't a statutory document so you aren't legally required to comply with it.
However failure to comply with the BS 7671 recommendations can leave you liable to prosecution under other legislation that points to BS7671.
And I do believe that to meet building regs in acceptable way you have to comply with BS7671.

Then you should read approved document part P. On the 1st page it clearly states there are other ways of complying with the law and that BS7671 regulations are guidelines.

Page 1, "What is an approved document

.......... Note that there may be other ways to comply with the requirements- there is no obligation to adopt any particular solution contained in an approved document"

There is no mention in the building regulations regarding BS7671 and although the approved document part P does refer to BS7671, because the approved document is only a guide, there is no legal reason you have to follow the wiring regulations.

 

[westward10]

Who is going to prosecute him the work isn't notifiable. Just another failing of the wishy washy Part P.

 

[Gigsy]

Who is going to prosecute him the work isn't notifiable. Just another failing of the wishy washy Part P.

When you say wishy washy Part P. Below is Part P

PART P ELECTRICAL SAFETY


Design and installation


P1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installation from fire or injury."


When i say IS Part P. I mean it IS part P in it's entirety. I think electricians think the apporved document and the wiring regulations are Part P. They are not. Of cousce you have to by law also comply with Part A and Part M, and all the other Parts of the building regs, but as far as Part P is concerned it literally is that one paragraph.

 

[Gigsy]

You are correct and BS 7671 isn't a statutory document so you aren't legally required to comply with it.
However failure to comply with the BS 7671 recommendations can leave you liable to prosecution under other legislation that points to BS7671.
And I do believe that to meet building regs in acceptable way you have to comply with BS7671.

What other legislation????????????????

 

[westward10]

When you say wishy washy Part P. Below is Part P

PART P ELECTRICAL SAFETY


Design and installation


P1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installation from fire or injury."


When i say IS Part P. I mean it IS part P in it's entirety. I think electricians think the apporved document and the wiring regulations are Part P. They are not. Of cousce you have to by law also comply with Part A and Part M, and all the other Parts of the building regs, but as far as Part P is concerned it literally is that one paragraph.

It's your house, none of the work was notifiable, in essence it doesn't matter. If Part P had some backbone you wouldn't be allowed to do it, but it ain't so you can.

 

[Gigsy]

It's your house, none of the work was notifiable, in essence it doesn't matter. If Part P had some backbone you wouldn't be allowed to do it, but it ain't so you can.

Thank you, I think I will change it anyways!!

 

[Pat H]

What other legislation????????????????

By law, the homeowner or landlord must be able to prove that all electrical installation work meets Part P, or they will be committing a criminal offence.

 

[westward10]

It is his own house.

 

[Pat H]

Ah so DIY in your own home is ok regardless of regs etc. Ok got that.

 

[westward10]

Ah so DIY in your own home is ok regardless of regs etc. Ok got that.

Well if the work doesn't require notification then yes.

 

[Gigsy]

By law, the homeowner or landlord must be able to prove that all electrical installation work meets Part P, or they will be committing a criminal offence.

What law? Where does it say that. If there is such a law, what legislation is it written in? As we have already discussed part P simply states an installation must not cause fire or electricuation. How do you propose this can be proved by the homeowner. You are spreading more electricians --------.

 

[Gigsy]

Ah so DIY in your own home is ok regardless of regs etc. Ok got that.

Why do you say things that are not correct.The buildings regulations do apply to DIY'ers

 

[Toneyz]

As far as I know there are noggins on all approaches, I don't have access from all sides to find out. The 150mm "permitted cable route" tip has given me an idea that may work, I may be able to put the light off center if i come across one of the walls, before one of the noggins. So I can run cable 15cm down from the ceiling across a wall, even if it does not go to an appliance , is that right?

It needs to be within the 150mm zone

 

[Diddy]

If you want to know if it will work and will it kill you/anyone then the answer is yes it will work and in all probability nobody will die. It does come down to it's your house so do as you wish within our laws. If the law declares that you can amend or extend a simple circuit without any notification then that's it - end of story. Are there potential issues ? YES there are and they have been described to the op.
Where would/could any issues arise - well lets just say you had worked on the circuit and a fire developed in connection with that circuit - NOT necessarily YOUR work - After fire officer declares electrical fault on downstairs lighting circuit your insurance are going to ask for most recent eicr - they may even order an investigation by a qualified "expert" and discover that their had been DIY additions - THEN they would just say - sorry no pay....one unhappy op - All very exaggerated but nothing that has not happened before in some shape or form.
That is 1 scenario of bad news as if you decided to take insurance company to court they would then refer to statutory documents as well as non statutory documents that are referred to in the statutory documents (AKA BS7671)....this is where your interpretation of these documents would be ultimately tested and in most of the professional opinion on here your interpretation would fall short of the intention of these documents.
Now all of the above are concerning cash - if there was loss of life then im afraid the above would happen in a very different court and with more serious outcomes at steak.
At the and of the day all of that is far fetched - but those regulations are essentially there to ensure safety to people,property and livestock - if anybody falls short of these obligations then they open themselves to a load of trouble and a great sob story.

 

[Gigsy]

If you want to know if it will work and will it kill you/anyone then the answer is yes it will work and in all probability nobody will die. It does come down to it's your house so do as you wish within our laws. If the law declares that you can amend or extend a simple circuit without any notification then that's it - end of story. Are there potential issues ? YES there are and they have been described to the op.
Where would/could any issues arise - well lets just say you had worked on the circuit and a fire developed in connection with that circuit - NOT necessarily YOUR work - After fire officer declares electrical fault on downstairs lighting circuit your insurance are going to ask for most recent eicr - they may even order an investigation by a qualified "expert" and discover that their had been DIY additions - THEN they would just say - sorry no pay....one unhappy op - All very exaggerated but nothing that has not happened before in some shape or form.
That is 1 scenario of bad news as if you decided to take insurance company to court they would then refer to statutory documents as well as non statutory documents that are referred to in the statutory documents (AKA BS7671)....this is where your interpretation of these documents would be ultimately tested and in most of the professional opinion on here your interpretation would fall short of the intention of these documents.
Now all of the above are concerning cash - if there was loss of life then im afraid the above would happen in a very different court and with more serious outcomes at steak.
At the and of the day all of that is far fetched - but those regulations are essentially there to ensure safety to people,property and livestock - if anybody falls short of these obligations then they open themselves to a load of trouble and a great sob story.

BS7671 are not referred to in any statutory document, if ou disagree please post a reference to said document.
This is exactly why I asked if I was breaking any regulations and from what I have read on here from you experts, there is not one regulation that I would have broken.
I have now changed the wiring, I bought a long drill bit and drilled in the middle of the joists from below.