Comments advice on report after having Electrical inspection

[Engineer54]

Andy,....

Ah .... but it's clearly stated in his report ...No bonding connections!! lol!!!

 

[wingers]

Thank you all for your helpful responses - trouble is most of this is double dutch to me, which makes it difficult to know which bits I should query with him - I understand about the earthing can't be both rod or suppliers but which bits are so badly wrong I can query them with him and know what I am on about (with all your kind help of course)

 

[andyb]

Andy,....

Ah .... but it's clearly stated in his report ...No bonding connections!! lol!!!

That makes it a bit harder then.

 

[wingers]

Is he a member of a scheme, NAPIT nic or elecsa?

trustmark - TrustMark : find reliable, trustworthy tradesmen : Government Endorsed Standards

and elecsa

 

[Engineer54]

That makes it a bit harder then.

Er, .....quite a lot harder than just a bit!! ...lol!!!

 

[BertUK]

rewire to lights sounds a bit excessive to me,a roll of 1.5 and half a dozen light switches and pendants would run to about £100 so £700 labour is a lot,i know im speaking as its unseen but a couple of days to rewire a lighting circuit is adequate i think.i would say more around the £500 mark.

 

[PC Electrics]

I'm not in Trustmark. I wouldn't pay the fee, because stuff like this devalues the brand. there is no substitute for personal recommendation (I hardly advertise at all).

For domestic work we all have to be in a scheme. NIC, Napit and ELECSA are the 'big three'. It's simply a choice which comes down to personal preference which scheme to join. I'm with ELECSA.

I've got to nip out for a bit, so I'll try and do you some 'plain english' comments later.

 

[Guest123]

Wasn't wearing a long overcoat and a beret was he???

 

[wingers]

all of my light switches are plastic - so what is the benefit of me spending 800 (going on quote I have) to get them earthed properly? if they are plastic surely not really a chance of shock - what are the benefits etc etc? just really trying to understand why I need to do it

Thanks

 

[Des 56]

Do any of your light fittings req an earth,are they metalic,those may req earth
Even if they are,there are set procedures that can be used, if you were to decline rewiring of the lighting

 

[wingers]

Do any of your light fittings req an earth,are they metalic,those may req earth
Even if they are,there are set procedures that can be used, if you were to decline rewiring of the lighting

most light fittings are plastic - only ones not sure about would be spot lights in bathroom and flourescent tube in kitchen

what do you mean by "set procedures"?

 

[telectrix]

basically, set procedures entail 1. replacing any class1 ( metal ) with class 2 ( plastic, non-conductive ) fittings.2. fixing a warning label on CU stating that there is no cpc on lighting-use only class 2 fittings. ( and, of course, noting same on the certificate.)

 

[Engineer54]

Basically by using all double insulated fittings etc!! But that's not a very good idea, especially when you come to sell your house, like the PIR you have now, it would show up like a sore thumb, and will cost you more money in the long run...
Get the lighting circuits rewired, ....but not for 800 quid!!! See what CDW comes up with when he's had a look.

 

[telectrix]

as i think i said previously, i would go in at £40 - £45 per point . e.g. 6 lights, 6 switches -- 12 points = £480 - £540.

 

[mister]

all of my light switches are plastic - so what is the benefit of me spending 800 (going on quote I have) to get them earthed properly? if they are plastic surely not really a chance of shock - what are the benefits etc etc? just really trying to understand why I need to do it

Thanks

Light switches, that report seems to think you don't have any of those

 

[not clever]

Seen as it's a bungalow there is another option to a full circuit rewire, If there are conduit drops to the switches you could just drop in a cpc around the lighting circuit.
Or
Change all class 1 lighting points to class 2 & replace all metal plate screws with nylon ones.

Nobody else has asked, the cables for the lighting circuit wouldnt be enclosed in metal conduit would they? if so you electrician may have missed this as the cpc.

As for the prices:
Your cu change seems fair & I'd insist that (seen as you only have a few circuits) rcbo's were used.
Lighting rewire, bit ott for a bungalow. Could be cheaper.
MEB again without looking hard to say, but I usualy put a price of £150 on this as in most cases it isnt too much of a F about.

As for your mums quote:
Cant comment unless the quote is broken down.

The reports, well everybody else has pulled them apart enough already.

 

[wingers]

Seen as it's a bungalow there is another option to a full circuit rewire, If there are conduit drops to the switches you could just drop in a cpc around the lighting circuit.
Or
Change all class 1 lighting points to class 2 & replace all metal plate screws with nylon ones.

Nobody else has asked, the cables for the lighting circuit wouldnt be enclosed in metal conduit would they? if so you electrician may have missed this as the cpc.

As for the prices:
Your cu change seems fair & I'd insist that (seen as you only have a few circuits) rcbo's were used.
Lighting rewire, bit ott for a bungalow. Could be cheaper.
MEB again without looking hard to say, but I usualy put a price of £150 on this as in most cases it isnt too much of a F about.

As for your mums quote:
Cant comment unless the quote is broken down.

The reports, well everybody else has pulled them apart enough already.

thanks for reply

what are rcbo's

re: mums quote - will contact him and get a breakdown as we wanted more info on what would be done anyway

 

[Engineer54]

RCBO = Combined MCB/RCD ...One protective device required for each of your circuits.

 

[jon jordan]

and they are?

did you see also on there polarity was ticked on garage sockets ? though it was reversed.

 

[Des 56]

did you see also on there polarity was ticked on garage sockets ? though it was reversed.

I think he may have ticked the polarity box because, he has commented and noted that remedial work was done to fix that problem
As reports go,I have seen a lot worse than this one

Ranting time now
Because these reports are not regulated in any shape or form it is just a consequence of a crap system
Clients can go to all singing + dancing approved contrators and get the same toilet papers
The control or lack of it is at fault more than the maker of the report

No control on who can carry them out
No control on competence for doing so
The clients are being hoodwinked on an enormous scale,but most think if they were to go with advise out there and get even an niceic approved firm,they would be getting the real deal
How wrong they are and how ill informed

The guy did the job the way he "thought" was correct,should all the blame be put on him ?
Any incompetent is only incompetent if they know it and our system encourages that situation

 

[not clever]

The other side of these periodics are the customers......how many have you undertaken as the knowledgeable electrician & indicated code 1's to the customer only for the customer to say "thanks the remedials can wait for now"

 

[madmac]

I think he may have ticked the polarity box because, he has commented and noted that remedial work was done to fix that problem
As reports go,I have seen a lot worse than this one

Ranting time now
Because these reports are not regulated in any shape or form it is just a consequence of a crap system
Clients can go to all singing + dancing approved contrators and get the same toilet papers
The control or lack of it is at fault more than the maker of the report

No control on who can carry them out
No control on competence for doing so
The clients are being hoodwinked on an enormous scale,but most think if they were to go with advise out there and get even an niceic approved firm,they would be getting the real deal
How wrong they are and how ill informed

The guy did the job the way he "thought" was correct,should all the blame be put on him ?
Any incompetent is only incompetent if they know it and our system encourages that situation

Well said Des56: I have extensive experience in inspection & testing and of certification also, and I have found myself banging my head of a brick wall with frustration at the lack of regulation across the industry! I have even been forced to call Brian Scaddan about the finer points of inspection & testing only to find that he was also shocked at what goes on out there!!! I have refused to sign off NEW installations due to the shoddy and non-compliance installs only to find that there is always some mug(usually a manager) who will sign off anything knowing fine well there is practically NO chance of ever being pulled up!!! IT'S ALL A BIG MONEY MAKING SCAM!!!
It also ****** me off at the amount of training courses and cards I've had to continually put myself through just to be classed as having basic qualifications to do this!!! I know no longer work in the SJIB/JIB sector but now work as a wireman/electrician/fitter in the HV sector for Scottish Power doing sub-station work, as I was sick of all the **** going on!!! That doesn't mean that the HV game is any different, just a change of scenery.

 

[Electricalserv]

Well said Des56: I have extensive experience in inspection & testing and of certification also, and I have found myself banging my head of a brick wall with frustration at the lack of regulation across the industry! I have even been forced to call Brian Scaddan about the finer points of inspection & testing only to find that he was also shocked at what goes on out there!!! I have refused to sign off NEW installations due to the shoddy and non-compliance installs only to find that there is always some mug(usually a manager) who will sign off anything knowing fine well there is practically NO chance of ever being pulled up!!! IT'S ALL A BIG MONEY MAKING SCAM!!!
It also ****** me off at the amount of training courses and cards I've had to continually put myself through just to be classed as having basic qualifications to do this!!! I know no longer work in the SJIB/JIB sector but now work as a wireman/electrician/fitter in the HV sector for Scottish Power doing sub-station work, as I was sick of all the **** going on!!! That doesn't mean that the HV game is any different, just a change of scenery.

It makes sense for the 2391 to be made minimum for PIR's. Why it isn't I dnt know.

 

[madmac]

It makes sense for the 2391 to be made minimum for PIR's. Why it isn't I dnt know.
Good point Electricalserv, and I would argue that it also makes sense for PIR's to only be allowed to be done by fully qualified approved electricians with 2391 and have some of the powers of the old Corgi scheme where if he thinks an install is unsafe he can isolate and lock off until made safe! And if someone is found to have falsely completed a cert. for PIR that they will be prosecuted.

 

[wingers]

breakdown of the quote I received is as follows:-

8- 1 gang 2 way light switch £8.16

2- 2 gang 2 way light switch £3.60

1- pull cord light switch £2.27

11- ceiling rose £21.01



Volex White £35.04



1- Crabtree 8 way 17edition dual rcd consumer unit £78.00

6- Crabtree type B mcbs £40.26

10- 1 gang 25mm metal box £3.20

200m 1.5mm twin & earth £91.26

50m 1.5mm 3 core & earth £37.33

2m meter tails £13.74

1- copper earth rod £2.72

3m 16mm earth cable £7.02

50m 10mm earth cable £50.25



£323.78



Total parts £358.82



1st fix

Remove existing lightingcables, modify immersion heater circuit- 1 day

Chasing and Sink boxes- 1 day
New wiring back to consumer unit- 1 day



3 days



2nd fix

Switches & lights- 1 day

Replace installation earth rod install earthing & bonding- 1day

Replace consumer unit, upgrade meter tails, test & inspect- 1day



3 days



8 hours per day 8.30- 4.30 £160.00

£960.00
Total parts andlabour- £1318.82


Both means of earthing being ticked was a mistake and the consumer unit fitted would be a crabtree

 

[nickblake]

Yes it should i agree mad mac what is needed is to get rid of the 20 minuit PIR's ive seen install pass a PIR when they have been wired in VIR ,there is a guy round here doing PIR's or landlords certs as they call them NOOOOOOOOOOO , he isnt qualified hasnt got a cert to his name no 15 16 or 17th edition but he issues certs , when i did my 2391 i was watched and assesed by a c&g Examiner and my tutor i have my work checked every three years any PIR's done yes we all make mistakes and i have but not that many there an over sight and a little experiance or knowlage ,you can realy do PIR when you have just finished college it takes years to build up the knowlage for PIR's

opps went off on one again sorry chaps

 

[madmac]

nickblake: Cheers mate that's what I'm talking about, guys with no qualifications or means of proving their experience getting away with telling a client everything is safe!!! When we all have to constantly go to night school for C&G's under exam conditions and keep our memberships/cards up to date all at great coast to us!!! I'm also not advocating prosecution for minor mistakes on PIR's but prosecuting false records by false electricians! And also the closure of these fast track scheme providers who are just middle men out for profit and couldn't care less about safety and industry standards!!! Also rant over.

 

[Engineer54]

Replace installation earth rod install earthing & bonding - 1day

Haha!! Why would he want to replace an earth rod giving an Ra of 0.22ohms??

Also looks like he intends to replace the existing rod cable with 10mm cable, now that would make sense if he's got a 0.22 ohm rod!! but that i very much doubt, in fact i'll go as far as put money on it that he hasn't!!!

 

[wingers]

for the £800 to do the lighting circuit - he has expanded and says "I had intended to install 2 lighting circuits toavoid inconvenience in case of a fault. I had also thoughtabout putting the immersion heater on a separate circuit from the sockets,this would not take long, it would again avoid inconvenience should afault occur and also prevent overload" - just to provide all information for comment

 

[Engineer54]

for the £800 to do the lighting circuit - he has expanded and says "I had intended to install 2 lighting circuits toavoid inconvenience in case of a fault. I had also thoughtabout putting the immersion heater on a separate circuit from the sockets,this would not take long, it would again avoid inconvenience should afault occur and also prevent overload" - just to provide all information for comment

Both of those intentions by the electrician, is what one would ''expect'' in a typical rewire of a domestic installation. eg ...2 6A lighting circuits, separate 16A emmersion circuit.....

 

[malcolmsanford]

I wonder if this sparks that is getting ripped apart is forum member .............. I bet he now knows what the Christians felt like 2500 years ago, if he is.

 

[Engineer54]

I wonder if this sparks that is getting ripped apart is forum member .............. I bet he now knows what the Christians felt like 2500 years ago, if he is.

Thing is Malc, he has made far too many mistakes on those 2 PIRs!! (If they are just mistakes) What do you do, just ignore these points, and let the OP fend for himself?? Or do we give the OP the information he needs to get his installation rectified correctly and safely at a reasonably cost effective price??

From what i have learned on these forums, It's just this type of situation that all the sparks here are complaining about, and is giving the industry a bad name in the process.

 

[Electricalserv]

I wonder if this sparks that is getting ripped apart is forum member .............. I bet he now knows what the Christians felt like 2500 years ago, if he is.

P.SMITH from Norwich, Norfolk area anyone????

 

[telectrix]

I wonder if this sparks that is getting ripped apart is forum member .............. I bet he now knows what the Christians felt like 2500 years ago, if he is.

talking of which, malcolm. when's the next crucifixion/beheading in saudi?

 

[drew35]

I noticed that also, a reading that low on an earth rod? That can't be right.

 

[telectrix]

hmmm. came across a job the other week. TN-S with an earth rod as well. think i got a reading of around 0.25ohms.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well mate i'm assuming he is not or if he is then he is keeping quiet. I agree we should be telling the OP that the report on face value is sub standard and advising the OP to contact the electrician, and to let the electrician have a chance to address his mistakes/errors. This is what a scheme would advise.
I just feel that kangaroo courts are counter productive. This thread as opened what seems to be a very emotive subject, and that is the reason I have not posted on it, but always feel that sometimes things are not always what they seem, until the truth will out.

 

[PC Electrics]

The inconvenience thing is an issue, but this is a modest property and there are many alternative sources of light in the normal domestic situation, eg TV, bedside lights, clock display, oven light, moon light, street lights. I don't see it as critical that the property is rewired to have 2 lights circuits, though of course you can if you want to spend the money.
The lack of cpc is an issue of safety however and really needs rectifying. Given the age of the property it is likely that the lights are wired in singles. there are probably red singles looping in and out of each switch, a switch wire to each light position and a neutral looping round each light position. i would offer to fix this by replacing the single neutral with a new single & earth neutral and then just replacing each switch wire again with single & earth. No need for a complete rewire - job done in a day and cpc to all points. Remember this is a bungalow.

So you now tell us there is an immersion connected to the ring? Why is this not detailed on the PIR and given a code 4 (arguably a code 2 since there is only one ring, especially if this is your primary means of hot water)?
this needs fixing with it's own circuit. Probably less than half a day. If he was intending to do this, it really should be detailed on the PIR and quote.
At this age of property, it's also likely the immersion has no safety cut out - this is a code 2 and a new stat should be fitted (see the guides linked below)

If I were putting in a new dRCD Cu, I'd be tempted to split the ring into 2x radials at 20A each, one for the kitchen and one for the rest of the house.

The cables need properly identifying - given the age they are almost certainly imperial. I've attached a doc that gives you details about how to identify imperial cable and rate them around page 5 or 6 of this thread. If it's been deleted by 'the management', PM me and I'll send you a copy by email.

No mention in the report of supplementary bonding for the bathroom. Again given the age likely to be an issue, but a dRCD CU will sort that.

Also, why does the PIR not detail any 'extent' - it cannot be not applicable.

I've personally had a lot of trouble with Crabtree branded RCDs and RCBOs and won't fit them new, only if an existing CU is Crabtree. And that Electrium recall seriously dented my faith in any of their brands. IMO Hager are much better quality since they were redesigned (and better value and made in the EU & assembled in the UK).

The sparks should check out guides 1, 4 and 6 here:
Best practice guides : Electrical Safety Council

more advice for the spark:
Periodic inspection of existing domestic and similar installations : Electrical Safety Council

plenty of advice for the client here:
Home Electrics : Electrical Safety Council

 

[Engineer54]

Malcolm,

I most certainly agree with some of your points, i'm not into Kangaroo court scenarios either. Just that Both of those PIRs had the the same anomalies, especially those Zs results, ....That's more than a little suspicious don't you think??

Not really interested in the other area's where simple typo mistakes may or may not have been made, they are neither here or there.
The Codes given in these PIRs are again out of my experience, as i can't state with any authority what code should be given to what infraction... Others here would know far better than I in this instance!!! That seems to be a more than a common occurance from what i can understand....

 

[wingers]

thank you all for some great advice - really wasn't intended to be a witch hunt against electrician that did the report - just when I posted my initial issues re a light socket it was suggested I post the report to get some guidance - I certainly have nothing against the electrician I used, just trying to make sure job is done correctly at best price - have only just bought this bungalow so money a bit tight etc

 

[Engineer54]

hmmm. came across a job the other week. TN-S with an earth rod as well. think i got a reading of around 0.25ohms.

Council house installations in the early 50's were quite often also given a earth rod or lattice, i know that my parents house was, as well as all the other houses on that estate and an even bigger near-by council house estate. Nothing wrong in doing the same now either, to any TN-S or TNC-S derived systems....

 

[wingers]

So you now tell us there is an immersion connected to the ring? Why is this not detailed on the PIR and given a code 4 (arguably a code 2 since there is only one ring, especially if this is your primary means of hot water)?
this needs fixing with it's own circuit. Probably less than half a day. If he was intending to do this, it really should be detailed on the PIR and quote.
At this age of property, it's also likely the immersion has no safety cut out - this is a code 2 and a new stat should be fitted (see the guides linked below)

immersion is not actually used as water is now heated by oil fired central heating - didn't even know I had an immersion until he checked electric's - as it was one of three switches I asked him to identify as was hidden in a cupboard and didn't have a clue what it was for

 

[nickblake]

With the reading of that low id have expected it to be a TNCS ,so as ive pointed out in a previouse post he has ticked both Earth rod and suppliers earth so it could be a TNCS with a Rod as has been mentioned , an old TT system that has been upgraded to TNCS and earth rod never removed , or the earth from the immersion etc causing incorrect readings , as i have said we all make mistakes ,but in correct main switch nos RCD values ,cpc sizes when there isnt one mmm way to many 1 or even 2 may be

 

[wingers]

With the reading of that low id have expected it to be a TNCS ,so as ive pointed out in a previouse post he has ticked both Earth rod and suppliers earth so it could be a TNCS with a Rod as has been mentioned , an old TT system that has been upgraded to TNCS and earth rod never removed , or the earth from the immersion etc causing incorrect readings , as i have said we all make mistakes ,but in correct main switch nos RCD values ,cpc sizes when there isnt one mmm way to many 1 or even 2 may be

I queried this and he made a mistake and has sent me an amended report with just electode ticked

 

[nickblake]

Not being funny and i hate with a passion pulling other sparks apart , but if he had made 1 mistake then he should have checked the cert over and over to ensure no other mistakes have been made then he may well have spotted the other errors that have been pointed out , like i said we all make mistakes , i have a tendancy of checking over certs after they have been sent out , and if i spot a mistake no matter how small then i will re issue the certificate as i have said its easy to over look an error or enter a number incorrectly especially if its a PC based soft ware you use to do the certs

 

[Electricalserv]

35mA RCD is my favourite.....

 

[nickblake]

I would like to know where its installed as the schedual say's its on the ring main (Sockets)as its been tested but the observations say they have no RCD protection

I do think its about time we stopped pulling the guy apart though feel sorry for him think if he's not on the forum he should be not so we can rib him but to help him and try to point him in the direction so he doesnt make any more mistakes , sound like a young inexperiance guy to me , we all need help from time to time i know i do (wife say so any way ) lol

 

[wingers]

35mA RCD is my favourite.....

can you explain the problem with this to be in terms I would understand so I can query this with him - thanks!

 

[wingers]

I would like to know where its installed as the schedual say's its on the ring main (Sockets)as its been tested but the observations say they have no RCD protection

I do think its about time we stopped pulling the guy apart though feel sorry for him think if he's not on the forum he should be not so we can rib him but to help him and try to point him in the direction so he doesnt make any more mistakes , sound like a young inexperiance guy to me , we all need help from time to time i know i do (wife say so any way ) lol

if you can tell me what I am looking for, I can advise where it is?

agreed, but will ask him to clarify some of the points, once I understand them myself a bit more and have gone through all these replies to get a list of what is wrong on report

 

[nickblake]

RCD's are 30ma not 35ma (not all of them there are other values 100ma 300ma etc ) , what i would do is take note of all the errors pointed out buy the guys and query them all

An RCD is identifiable by a small Button that says press to test on it this could be a different array of colours black red yellow blue orange , on it it should have a number or BSEN 61008 or older types BS4293 and have 30ma written on it with a current rating 60, 80 or 100 amp