Define 'accessible'?

[DaveVector]

Hi folks,
I am in debate with a client who has 'worked in the electrical industry', and has begun to question everything I do.
He is having a kitchen/dinning room extension built and so far I have done the first fix, and am just beginning the second.Amongst other issues there are two I would like some help with:
*I have used some M2 junction boxes which have cable clamps, under the floorboards to extend some cabling. The client is arguing that when they have a wooden floor laid that these will become "totally inaccessible" and "does not comply with building regulations". I am of the opinion that although difficult to access they are not inaccessible, and building regs are complied with.
*He is also unhappy with me locating a cooker isolator in a cupboard adjacent to the cooker, claiming that "It has been pointed out to me that this is not usual practice and in an emergency it would be difficult to reach" I see no problem with the isolators location and this was discussed prior to me beginning work
Any thoughts please?

 

[telectrix]

afraid i have to disagree in part with you. under a floor without an access panel is, IMO, inaccessible. as regards the cooker isolation, if it's easily accessed in that cupboard, then some say yes and some say no. at the end of the day, the customer's preference should be considered as long as what they want complies with BS7671 and building regs.

 

[DaveVector]

I take your point about the access panel. But just for arguments sake, if an electrician does some work under a floor which has floorboards and carpet and uses some JB's. At some later date the client has laminate or wooden flooring put down.Are the JB's inaccessible? And if so how can we be expected to see into the future?

 

[Richard Burns]

Yes I agree with Tel M2 junction boxes under floorboards is inaccessible.
Most customers do not want to see the cooker switch and want it hidden in a cupboard, which so long as there are not fixed items in front of it is OK, I would prefer outside and visible, but the former is more common I think.

 

[Richard Burns]

Under floorboards you only use "maintenance free" junctions crimped /soldered /welded. For screw connected junctions make sure they are on the surface or through a hole from the accessory and can be pulled out.

 

[Coffeemad]

I have to agree, especially as a happy client uses you again and provides recommendations to friends and unhappy ones don't.. In the current climate, I'd smile sweetly and do as he asks, especially as the time spent arguing could be used to make the changes you are going to have to make anyway.

 

[Des 56]

Inaccessable
If you notice no where in any of the guidances does it define the word in context with our installations
The interpretation is what makes this a never ending and inconclusive subject

I can rant on about my own personal definition and it would be stated as wrong by some, over the top by others

When its said a jb under the floor is not appropriate,whats your reasoning behind the statement ?
Do you routinely inspect these jbs even when their locations are not usually noted ?
Is a screw connected jb any less safe than a poorly crimped or "wagoed joint" ? (these I dont trust,at all by the way,jbs yes, wagoes no way)

When this standard jb is under the floorbaords,it got "made off" ok in the first instance by lifting the floorboard, accessability was not a problem

To me the inaccessable problem only has significance when a "badly made off" jb impacts on the installation
That is the time that location and accessability raises its head
In the end its usually down, as are most things, to the standard of the initial install, not the tried and tested accessory that we all do not routinely inspect

A cooker switch in the cupboard !
I have never ever sited one in there, but would do so if I couldn't make the customer see sense and locate it somewhere more appropriate

The cooker switch is not an emergency switch and there is nothing much wrong with hiding, what some see as a unsightly piece of equipment, in the cupboard
The building fabric is now the next clear as day interpretation to make :crazy:

 

[jase]

the cooker switch surely is deemed as an emergency switch if it is doing a hob and you need to turn the heat off quickly, ie chip pan fire etc, this is why it is not exceptable to put it above the ho where you would have to reach over it.
I have seen them in cupboards, mainly when i am doing PIR's and i have to get spend 10 mins taken out all of the tins of food,crockerey,tuperware etc or whatever else crap they have in there just to get to it

 

[jase]

When its said a jb under the floor is not appropriate,whats your reasoning behind the statement ?
Do you routinely inspect these jbs even when their locations are not usually noted ?
Is a screw connected jb any less safe than a poorly crimped or "wagoed joint" ? (these I dont trust,at all by the way,jbs yes, wagoes no way)

When this standard jb is under the floorbaords,it got "made off" ok in the first instance by lifting the floorboard, accessability was not a problem

To me the inaccessable problem only has significance when a "badly made off" jb impacts on the installation
That is the time that location and accessability raises its head
In the end its usually down, as are most things, to the standard of the initial install, not the tried and tested accessory that we all do not routinely inspect


BS7671 526.3

 

[jase]

how about these
http://www.******************/Products/ASJ803.html

 

[telectrix]

the cooker switch surely is deemed as an emergency switch if it is doing a hob and you need to turn the heat off quickly, ie chip pan fire etc, this is why it is not exceptable to put it above the ho where you would have to reach over it.
I have seen them in cupboards, mainly when i am doing PIR's and i have to get spend 10 mins taken out all of the tins of food,crockerey,tuperware etc or whatever else crap they have in there just to get to it

hobs have little knobs for turning off the rings. the isolator is for isolating, not emergency switching. in the case of a chip pan fire, it might be sensible to switch off at the |CU MCB. ( assuming some muppet hasn't fixed the CU above the hob)

 

[Des 56]

[/QUOTE]

BS7671 526.3

Every joint shall be accessable

Which now brings you back to the question that was posed

Define accessable and you will not get a full consensus

Unless its in black and white,"thou shallt" or "thou shall, not" ( which could never happen)it is relative to the person asked

If a cooker needed emergency switching,it would be more sensible to install a contactor with emergency stops located away from the heat source
The heat and fire danger,if thats the case wont disappear because the power gets shut off
(The gas supply to some commercial kitchens excepted)

 

[Octopus]

M2 Junction boxes under floors - NO

Cooker isolation switches in cupboards - NO (I'm sure others may disagree).

Why can't you replace the legs of the ring rather than have junctions/connections in them. Far, far better in he long term.

 

[Des 56]

Quote
Why can't you replace the legs of the ring rather than have junctions/connections in them. Far, far better in he long term.

Of course it is,avoid joints at all costs and this stupid broad term accessability doesn't arise

 

[telectrix]

then again, depends on what the joint is. "pass the dutchie" :grouphug:

 

[trev]

BS7671 526.3

Every joint shall be accessable[/QUOTE]
I agree with the bit about lack of consensus but my definition is, can you get to the joint easily. If it's under a floor my answer would have to be no.
Like Murdoch suggests, replace the legs and there's no longer an issue.

 

[Guest112]

personally i dont think the cooker switches look that bad and would rather have it on show rather than in the cupboard but as weve seen each to their own, best option replace the legs or just use maintenance free connections although most would prefer a jb to a through crimp rules are rules. (i will avoid a through crimp as much as possible)

and do the job spot on to the regs and you can sleep at night no problem and no fingers pointed then

 

[Octopus]

Hi folks,
I am in debate with a client who has 'worked in the electrical industry', and has begun to question everything I do.
He is having a kitchen/dinning room extension built and so far I have done the first fix, and am just beginning the second.Amongst other issues there are two I would like some help with:
*I have used some M2 junction boxes which have cable clamps, under the floorboards to extend some cabling. The client is arguing that when they have a wooden floor laid that these will become "totally inaccessible" and "does not comply with building regulations". I am of the opinion that although difficult to access they are not inaccessible, and building regs are complied with.
*He is also unhappy with me locating a cooker isolator in a cupboard adjacent to the cooker, claiming that "It has been pointed out to me that this is not usual practice and in an emergency it would be difficult to reach" I see no problem with the isolators location and this was discussed prior to me beginning work
Any thoughts please?

I've had time to reflect on this post and to be honest I think that to even contemplate having such JB's under a floor, inaccessible, is beyond me.

Astonishing and thumbs up to the client for having a better grip of the regs than the OP.