Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory

[Darkwood]

But using the Electrical Trainee term carries with it the inherent suggestion that the problem is about those five weeks, it's right there in the term. So those who have done that short course route to combine with existing quals/exp to produce a perfectly competent domestic installer may feel a bit slighted that that term is being slung about. My suggestion is that if you want to suggest someone is not competent within the scope that they should be, then just say so and don't use some broadbrush label to tie that comment in to how they may have (failed to) learn or how long it took. Perhaps just "useless jerk" or something.

The Electrical Trainee term ill agree now has a one tag fits all but you me or anyone on here using the term are not at blame ....its the mis-selling greedy tutoring schemes that have tarred what was a course that only originally attracted a few small previous experienced students, when they realised they could actually pass students with no background and issue them with a cert' to work in electrics albeit with no competence or experience the courses exploded into every corner of the UK and massive profits were made... the fallout of this is a general Tag of %WW which has even been termed in televised debates...its a tag that will prevail until they stop sending out ill prepared people on false hopes into what is a very dangerous and professional job.

 

[NickD]

The Electrical Trainee term ill agree now has a one tag fits all but you me or anyone on here using the term are not at blame ....its the mis-selling greedy tutoring schemes that have tarred what was a course that only originally attracted a few small previous experienced students, when they realised they could actually pass students with no background and issue them with a cert' to work in electrics albeit with no competence or experience the courses exploded into every corner of the UK and massive profits were made... the fallout of this is a general Tag of %WW which has even been termed in televised debates...its a tag that will prevail until they stop sending out ill prepared people on false hopes into what is a very dangerous and professional job.

Yeah but at the end of the day if you are someone who has come through that route in a justifiable way from justifiable quals/exp and come out of it as a still learning (who isn't) but competent-within-their-scope domestic installer, and then you see this Electrical Trainee term bandied about, then regardless of it being the fault of the bad behaviour of private colleges and ill-advised students and etc. you are going to feel tarred with that brush. In terms of it being a tag that will prevail, it'll prevail until people decide not to use it.

 

[NickD]

Once they've finished the course and come on here asking for advice, that kind of 'I'm better than you' and 'you owe me a living' attitude.

Bit off topic, but IMHO it's a bad idea to unnecessarily judge someone's attitude based only on what they write in an Internet posting. Compared to a face-to-face conversation, you are missing about 70% of the information, is a figure I saw quoted once (pacing, tone, volume, body language, facial expressions, etc. etc.). If I judge someone's attitude from an internet posting the risk is my conclusion says more about my own assumptions and prejudices than it does about their attitude. This is why forum/comments discussions descend so readily into a slanging match the people would never dream of having in person.

 

[markc123]

Bit off topic, but IMHO it's a bad idea to unnecessarily judge someone's attitude based only on what they write in an Internet posting. Compared to a face-to-face conversation, you are missing about 70% of the information, is a figure I saw quoted once (pacing, tone, volume, body language, facial expressions, etc. etc.). If I judge someone's attitude from an internet posting the risk is my conclusion says more about my own assumptions and prejudices than it does about their attitude. This is why forum/comments discussions descend so readily into a slanging match the people would never dream of having in person.

I get that ... but then again, you can't have the face/face argument/coversastion ... so as wrong it sounds, all you can go on is what someone writes ... if it's written terribly and assumptions are made then that's the fault of the OP in my opinion - it could be a wrong opinion, sure, the OP could know exactly what he's on about ... but then he should spend abit more time with the post and re-read it before submitting.

And we're all guilty of that, i've dropped clangers on here and been picked up on them immediatley, so, not sure why a new poster should get treated any differently to be honest.

This is slightly off topic aswell, but if someone was to come here and say ...

"im not an electrician, i was just wondering whether or not you could advise me on X, if not i'll get a real spark in"
OR
"Im newly qualified, im unsure of this - i'd go about it like X but im not sure if this is correct...any advise?"

.... something like them wouldn't get any abuse what so ever ... it's when people turn up with fantasy stories, and when genuine helpful members are trying to decypher what the poster is on about it soon becomes evident that people are not being up front OR when someone comes just expecting answers without having ago themselves. - and this is when the slagging starts IMO.


On a side note, im done with the slagging on this forum - i genuinley can't even be arsed anymore - some people do deserve to be shot down on here, and some don't who are ... i'll leave that too glenn and the gang to decide. I'd hate this forum to get to the stage where people are scared to ask questions though.

 

[Darkwood]

Yeah but at the end of the day if you are someone who has come through that route in a justifiable way from justifiable quals/exp and come out of it as a still learning (who isn't) but competent-within-their-scope domestic installer, and then you see this Electrical Trainee term bandied about, then regardless of it being the fault of the bad behaviour of private colleges and ill-advised students and etc. you are going to feel tarred with that brush. In terms of it being a tag that will prevail, it'll prevail until people decide not to use it.

There are Electrical Trainee as the tag goes that I hold in high respect on this forum who go the extra mile and know their stuff and yes they have 'come out' par'se to admit their path to their new found career but all except one has previous related experience and the one who doesn't I class as one of the few who excel naturally, the other 95% doing the courses are ill prepared, lack experience and tricked into a big scam that is still ongoing ...the tag will damage this abuse of these money grabbing schemes and if it comes at the expense of a few good genuine good sparks then be it as their own talent will ensure their career but the tag serves as a deterrent and a message the bigwigs who have already called up and discussed the issue.

The faster these schemes disappear the better, its caused a wage drop in the industry which is already taken a blow from recession and gives no positive effects.. all practicing electricians should in my mind go through the full course and they should bring back the old style courses prior to the dumbing down to keep ill educated school kids off the streets.

 

[NickD]

I get that ... but then again, you can't have the face/face argument/coversastion ... so as wrong it sounds, all you can go on is what someone writes ...

Yeah, but the sensible person who is aware of that limitation, makes the effort to make as few assumptions as possible, and so doesn't just blithely make assumptions about the posters attitude even though they don't need to. In this context, if in doubt assume the best of people, I always think.

 

[NickD]

There are Electrical Trainee as the tag goes that I hold in high respect on this forum who go the extra mile and know their stuff and yes they have 'come out' par'se to admit their path to their new found career but all except one has previous related experience and the one who doesn't I class as one of the few who excel naturally, the other 95% doing the courses are ill prepared, lack experience and tricked into a big scam that is still ongoing ...the tag will damage this abuse of these money grabbing schemes and if it comes at the expense of a few good genuine good sparks then be it as their own talent will ensure their career but the tag serves as a deterrent and a message the bigwigs who have already called up and discussed the issue.

The faster these schemes disappear the better, its caused a wage drop in the industry which is already taken a blow from recession and gives no positive effects.. all practicing electricians should in my mind go through the full course and they should bring back the old style courses prior to the dumbing down to keep ill educated school kids off the streets.

Fair enough, a very valid point of view.

 

[Adam W]

Yeah, but the sensible person who is aware of that limitation, makes the effort to make as few assumptions as possible, and so doesn't just blithely make assumptions about the posters attitude even though they don't need to. In this context, if in doubt assume the best of people, I always think.

It's not really "blithely making assumptions" if they've given you the information.
It works both ways as well - some people come here trying to cadge free information, you try to help and they just turn round and have a go at you. Why should I try to help someone like that?

 

[NickD]

It's not really "blithely making assumptions" if they've given you the information.
It works both ways as well - some people come here trying to cadge free information, you try to help and they just turn round and have a go at you. Why should I try to help someone like that?

Well, if you're sure.

 

[gnuuser]

Im not there in the UK but i agree with most of you guys that a 5 week course is not adequate at all.
now if it was considered as an introductory and familiarization course with assignment to apprenticeship that would be different.
for the most part they would be registered as apprentice and in training.
competent? no! qualified to train as a spark ? yes!
believe me ive seen a few that shouldn't even be trained to wipe a dogs butt

 

[MDJ]

It comes down to the fact a lot of the trade has been broken up into different sections now. Most of us over the age of 30 were trained to do everything, commercial, industrial and domestic plus testing and installing fire alarms, door access etc etc, we were not specialists in it all but had training in it all, and back then firms did all types of work unlike today. The trade now is different, it has been broken up into sections, Specialist companies are now installing alarms, fire alarms, data, door access, etc etc. And now the trade has been broken up again to Itemise Domestic only as a skill. There are reasons for this last part being broken up, it is political IMO but I won't go there in this post, it has happened. The question now is does a 5 week course have enough time and skill level in it to allow a man or woman off the street with no knowlege to train in this 5 week period to enter peoples homes and carry out work to a safe standard? If someone who has never been on site before walks into a college and takes the 5 week course, gets the 2382 and the part P multi choice exam under their belts then goes into a home after paying a scam 500 notes, are they competant. A lot of us including the panel of MPs think Not, the MPs themselves call these short course trainees Electrical Trainee themselves, so I it difficult to know what else to call them.

One suggestion would be to issue a card saying Domestic short course Electrician on it or DSCE qualification. So we could have from the bottom up the following grades.

Trainee stage 1
Trainee stage 2
DSCE
Electrician
Approved Electrician
Installation Technician
Site Technician
Engineer

This is just an example and could be debated all day, but it may shut the Electrical Trainee brigade up and give them something to keep in their wallets to prove competance. The card being issued though IMO would only be given out after 1 year of being in a scam and after a minimum of 5 completed Jobs looked at properly and all certification and test results examined alongside the whole of the 5 installations. If that were met then the DSCE card issued. Who knows the new card owner may want to try to become a Qualified electrician afterwards, it may give them an insentive. Now I know this post may seem insulting to some, it is not meant to be, that I promise, it is a compromise opinion on how to accept these 5 week courses and how to allow the course takers some dignity and respect, JMO, please feel free to rip this to shreads, I doony care, just a view.

 

[MDJ]

I think actually the trainee stage 2 should be level with DSCE, because if he or she took the 17th multi choice exam they would be as qualified easily.

 

[brman]

I sort of agree with what is being said but coming back to original question I still think the term Electrical Trainee is counter productive.
Like has been said, if you are using it identify someone who is incompetent then why not just call them incompetent? If you agree that some that have done the short course are good electricians then why imply they are some sort of lesser electrician just because of their route into the industry.

So, coming back to MJDs post, I don't see any point in the DSCE tag. Depending on how you look at it you are either saying that someone who has done a short course is automatically a lesser electrician or, on the other hand you are somehow saying that a short course has merit in its own right to elevate someone above a trainee. Neither is right!

I feel strongly that we have to accept the industry has changed and there are now many ways of become a good, competent electrician. Also that "electrican" can mean different things to different people (as it has always done...).
So lets stop getting hung up on which course or training route someone has taken and start concentrating on whether they are competent or not.

This takes me to the real problem - it is clear the schemes don't do a good enough job of policing competence levels. The apparent "2382 and you are in" attitude from the schemes is what has driven colleges to sell their courses in the way they do now.
I believe it comes back to the schemes to show they really do police bad practice, both by a more rigorous assessment of the contractors they accept on their schemes and kicking out (or seriously coaching) incompentent contractors. That, plus ensuring a QS has to actually supervise ALL work he is signing off (rather than sitting in the office signing bits of paper) would go a long way to improving standards in the industry.

 

[Guest111]

There are a lot of good points raised in this debate,well here's my view years ago when you did a proper apprenticeship you sat your exam and either passed or failed,if you failed you had to go back and start again.now with NVQ it's all modules,so fail one part and just redo it from an older sparks point of view it's like being able to have more than one bite at the cherry.in the right situation for the right person a fast track course can be okay,say for instance when someone has worked alongside an electrician for years but not sat any formal exams.however I dislike the term domestic installer as it would appear to me to indicate that domestic electrics are easier and safer than commercial or industrial work.get any of them wrong and you could have a fatality on your hands as has been seen before.In my opinion a lot of the time it's the training provider who is at fault,I 've seen first hand the way some of them spoon feed you the answers to the questions,I sat one course and at least a third of the candidates that passed should not have done so.Someone made a comparison to doctors or police early one in the post,well your Gp is trained in the basics of all things related to the human body and then undergoes further training to become a specialist in a given field say orthopaedics or gynaecology,which takes more years of training this doesn't mean that an orthopaedic consultant will be any better at treating you for a chest complaint than your gp would,however develop a bad knee or elbow and it's the orthopaedic specialist every time.I think there needs to be a better training regime for electricians in general and if there are to be fast track courses then there should be a set criteria for who can attend,say an entrance exam to prove that you have a decent level of knowledge to enable you to not only complete the course but also to carry out ANY electrical work safely.However this is unlikely to happen in the current situation,people in general seem quite content for the system to churn out literally hundreds of these often poorly trained electricians,DI's Electrical Trainee or whatever else you like to call them until something goes wrong and then they play merry hell.In my opinion a lot of the responsibility for this lies firmly at the door of the government and the so called professional bodies that represent our industry,It's not constant changes of the regs or the likes of part P that are needed but a decent training regime that ensures that only people who will ultimately perform their duties with due care and diligence and are properly trained are allowed to practice what can be a highly dangerous trade

 

[NickD]

"Trainee stage 1
Trainee stage 2
DSCE
Electrician
Approved Electrician
Installation Technician
Site Technician
Engineer"

What would earn you the title Engineer? This is a sore point among engineers. ("Sorry, chicken soup machine is out of order. Engineer has been called.") Engineer is not a protected title in the UK. There was a move on by the Engineering Council to protect it for only those who had relevant degree, Chartered Engineer and full corporate membership of relevant Institution, in this case IET. Is that what you'd go with?

 

[Badged01]

Perhaps the top title should be "chartered engineer" rather than just "engineer"? The chartered engineer is certainly a highly qualified, respected and 'protected' by civil law -- no one can use the title as they feel fit, unlike many electrical name groups.

The chartered engineering status is only granted to that select group of people degree qualified and with demonstrable professional engineering competencies born out through training and experience ..... :wink_smile:

 

[Badged01]

...... hang on, isnt that what all this JIB malarky is meant to do for the electrical profession?!?!?

 

[MDJ]

"Trainee stage 1
Trainee stage 2
DSCE
Electrician
Approved Electrician
Installation Technician
Site Technician
Engineer"

What would earn you the title Engineer? This is a sore point among engineers. ("Sorry, chicken soup machine is out of order. Engineer has been called.") Engineer is not a protected title in the UK. There was a move on by the Engineering Council to protect it for only those who had relevant degree, Chartered Engineer and full corporate membership of relevant Institution, in this case IET. Is that what you'd go with?

I didn't feel the need to go into engineer' it was just a hypothetical grading system' I mean chartered not a someone who repairs coffee machines

 

[MDJ]

I sort of agree with what is being said but coming back to original question I still think the term Electrical Trainee is counter productive.
Like has been said, if you are using it identify someone who is incompetent then why not just call them incompetent? If you agree that some that have done the short course are good electricians then why imply they are some sort of lesser electrician just because of their route into the industry.

So, coming back to MJDs post, I don't see any point in the DSCE tag. Depending on how you look at it you are either saying that someone who has done a short course is automatically a lesser electrician or, on the other hand you are somehow saying that a short course has merit in its own right to elevate someone above a trainee. Neither is right!

I feel strongly that we have to accept the industry has changed and there are now many ways of become a good, competent electrician. Also that "electrican" can mean different things to different people (as it has always done...).
So lets stop getting hung up on which course or training route someone has taken and start concentrating on whether they are competent or not.

This takes me to the real problem - it is clear the schemes don't do a good enough job of policing competence levels. The apparent "2382 and you are in" attitude from the schemes is what has driven colleges to sell their courses in the way they do now.
I believe it comes back to the schemes to show they really do police bad practice, both by a more rigorous assessment of the contractors they accept on their schemes and kicking out (or seriously coaching) incompentent contractors. That, plus ensuring a QS has to actually supervise ALL work he is signing off (rather than sitting in the office signing bits of paper) would go a long way to improving standards in the industry.

I don't think a Electrical Trainee is the same as a time served electrician who spends 3-4 years on site and college and neither do the MPs obviously' they are a different grade IMO' they can't go onto a commercial or industrial site can they? Any how just a view in a friendly debate

 

[NickD]

I didn't feel the need to go into engineer' it was just a hypothetical grading system' I mean chartered not a someone who repairs coffee machines

OK. I was just a bit amused that the only two on the list I appear to qualify for are DCSE "five week wonder", and Engineer.

 

[MDJ]

OK. I was just a bit amused that the only two on the list I appear to qualify for are DCSE "five week wonder", and Engineer.

It was hypothetical' engineer is a completely different direction regarding hands on' they run and design projects and would be the top grade' my post was just an idea to get some chat going about a grade for Electrical Trainee so they have a title' and electrician would not be one IMO,tin hat on lol

 

[NickD]

It was hypothetical' engineer is a completely different direction regarding hands on' they run and design projects and would be the top grade' my post was just an idea to get some chat going about a grade for Electrical Trainee so they have a title' and electrician would not be one IMO,tin hat on lol

Fair enough. But this does illustrate the problem with labels, especially ones which belittle people which some (not you) seem happy to bandy about.

Maybe we need a new CU label.

WARNING. This installation contains mixed engineering including black/red installed by a 30yr experienced sparky and blue/brown installed by a bin man who did a five week course. Proceed with extreme caution.

 

[MDJ]

Fair enough. But this does illustrate the problem with labels, especially ones which belittle people which some (not you) seem happy to bandy about.

Maybe we need a new CU label.

WARNING. This installation contains mixed engineering including black/red installed by a 30yr experienced sparky and blue/brown installed by a bin man who did a five week course. Proceed with extreme caution.

When we did our time we had to work under supervision even after qualifying for 2 years before getting our approved which meant we could work alone' so my view about a DSCE card for a year until 5 jobs have been inspected may not be so daft as it seems' why should 5week course people be aloud to work straight away without supervision when we had to do a 5 year apprenticeship and then 2 before being let loose on the public' it all about me me me and stop branding me a Electrical Trainee' there needs to be a minimum standard' 5 weeks won't cut it

 

[NickD]

When we did our time we had to work under supervision even after qualifying for 2 years before getting our approved which meant we could work alone' so my view about a DSCE card for a year until 5 jobs have been inspected may not be so daft as it seems' why should 5week course people be aloud to work straight away without supervision when we had to do a 5 year apprenticeship and then 2 before being let loose on the public' it all about me me me and stop branding me a Electrical Trainee' there needs to be a minimum standard' 5 weeks won't cut it

But then as I understand it this is the kind of direction they've headed in with the change to the Electrotechnical Assessement Specification. Don't you have to show a two year portfolio now or something before you can be QS? Which if you're a one man band means you can't even start up without said portfolio.

 

[NickD]

Although that's irrelevant if you're going to work unregistered of course.

 

[brman]

When we did our time we had to work under supervision even after qualifying for 2 years before getting our approved which meant we could work alone' so my view about a DSCE card for a year until 5 jobs have been inspected may not be so daft as it seems' why should 5week course people be aloud to work straight away without supervision when we had to do a 5 year apprenticeship and then 2 before being let loose on the public' it all about me me me and stop branding me a Electrical Trainee' there needs to be a minimum standard' 5 weeks won't cut it

I absolutely agree that 5 weeks on its own is laughable. You could spend 5 years in a classroom and it still would not cut it without hands on experience, no different to any other form of engineering.

So, if we agree that it is unlikely we will go back to the days of everyone doing apprentiships etc (was it really ever like that?) how do we ensure that the classroom is backed up with real experience and competence?
Is the schemes having a much more rigorous entry process (2 years portfolio etc) going to work?

 

[MDJ]

I absolutely agree that 5 weeks on its own is laughable. You could spend 5 years in a classroom and it still would not cut it without hands on experience, no different to any other form of engineering.

So, if we agree that it is unlikely we will go back to the days of everyone doing apprentiships etc (was it really ever like that?) how do we ensure that the classroom is backed up with real experience and competence?
Is the schemes having a much more rigorous entry process (2 years portfolio etc) going to work?

Some very good points raised by yourself and Nick which is good reading and very good debating, to add my 2 pence worth into the highlighed bit of your post Brman, yes it was a bit like that. I am aware apprenticeships have changed and probably in some cases for the better, don't think I am in any way rubbishing todays apprentices, I am not, honestly, were talking about 5 week courses just to clarify. When I took my apprenticeship we did what was called Block release back then. We did 6 weeks at tech then 6 weeks at work on site, then 6 weeks at tech and 6 weeks again on site and so on and so on with the exception of a 8 or 9 week on site only period during the summer holidays. This went on for 3 and a half years and then most of the class went into a 4th for the C Certificate and some went to work. The guys who did the C did the next year on one day a week at college with a lot of homeworking and 4 days a week on site and those who didn't did another 12 months on site only. Then after 4 and a half years both sets of apprentices got their JIB diplomas and their Electricians Grade card. That was great for us all we were very proud and although Electricians we had to work under the supervision of an Approved Electrician or a site forman for 2 years before getting our Approved status. Back then it meant we could get drawings and specs from the company office and travel to site ourselves without any supervision running the Job and having Electricians train under us, they were called Approvers. Usually but not always Electricians were 23 years old before being let loose without supervision on the public. That is how it was, Now okay as I mentioned in my earlier post times have changed and the trade has been broken up. So I can understandtraining time will not be near 7 years like it was before working alone acceptable, 3-4 years now is the norm and understandable. The exams are probably as tough if not tougher than before perhaps and time on site over 3-4 years.

Taking all that into consideration the 5 weeks in a college without site experience is laughable indeed. My idea about a DSCE card should be issued and treated as an improver was in my day. Supervision on site to be again a priority. My idea of 5 completed Jobs for the 5 week course guy or gal before being allowed to work alone is not unrealistic at all IMO, and a compromise the MPs may have to consider. At this present time due to a lot of confusion from many people it seems a short course, the 17th and a pat testing course as well as a part p chat enough to be considered competant. Lets get real and try to get some valuble on site time under supervision back before the schemes are allowed to take 500 sobs in a brown envelope and allow the person to enter someones home.

Finally I admit as will anyone if they are sensible times have changed and we will never get back to the olden times and probably good in a way for some not all, and we are where we are and thats that. The question now is what do we all consider the minimum requirement should be for a pat on the back regarding competance? and Damien Skelton ran a poll a few weeks back with what this forum thought. Unfortunately I have not got the time to look for it, but getting that added into this thread may help the debate even more.

 

[pepparz]

Fair enough. But this does illustrate the problem with labels, especially ones which belittle people which some (not you) seem happy to bandy about.

Maybe we need a new CU label.

WARNING. This installation contains mixed engineering including black/red installed by a 30yr experienced sparky and blue/brown installed by a bin man who did a five week course. Proceed with extreme caution.

i cant see the problem with sarcastic derodatory terms if there deserved,it's probably healthy in the long run if its not taken to extremes. nowadays you get kids in school going up to teachers saying "miss miss that person over there's hurt my feelings, cos they called me a name, now i'm all upset" its time people grew some balls and if there getting ripped give it back!

 

[Chrisuk]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

I think it's unfortunate that it labels everyone who's done the short-route-to-full-scope-Part-P type courses with the same brush. I think there are probably many Electrical Trainee's who do a good job working competently within the scope of their competence, and others who don't even have any competence to work within. Just as I'm sure there are both excellent and completely useless time served electricians. Just because you've got twenty years on the insulated screwdrivers man and boy, doesn't mean you've been holding the right end. ;-)

(Sorry Marvo, only just saw the tail end of your last post, apologies.)

It is unfortunate that Electrical Trainee short course ppl are said to not have what it takes regards vs someone that studied for at least 4yrs, like I'm doing, I think some will be good but I personally think if it was a percentage, the ones that have no clue would be a much higher percentage, it's not possible to learn the 4yrs in 5 weeks, I am referring to ppl doing the course with no previous experience
That's just my opinion

 

[pepparz]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

It is unfortunate that Electrical Trainee short course ppl are said to not have what it takes regards vs someone that studied for at least 4yrs, like I'm doing, I think some will be good but I personally think if it was a percentage, the ones that have no clue would be a much higher percentage, it's not possible to learn the 4yrs in 5 weeks, I am referring to ppl doing the course with no previous experience
That's just my opinion

bit of a contradiction that isnt it?

 

[Chrisuk]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

bit of a contradiction that isnt it?

I think if they know their stuff then I'm sure the 5 week course can help
But if they know nothing then I personally don't think they can learn from that course what someone doing the college course over 3/4yrs can learn, they are the ones that then go out accepting jobs when they I'm I've their heads

 

[pepparz]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

It is unfortunate that Electrical Trainee short course ppl are said to not have what it takes regards vs someone that studied for at least 4yrs, like I'm doing, I think some will be good but I personally think if it was a percentage, the ones that have no clue would be a much higher percentage, it's not possible to learn the 4yrs in 5 weeks, I am referring to ppl doing the course with no previous experience
That's just my opinion

sounds like that 80's game show called "you bet" hosted by mathew kelly, where the audience had to guess the percentage of a something happening

 

[MDJ]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

sounds like that 80's game show called "you bet" hosted by mathew kelly, where the audience had to guess the percentage of a something happening

wanna bet on it--------------------

 

[pepparz]

YOU BET hahah

 

[MDJ]

YOU BET hahah

lol, It wasn't just me who watched it then haha, I prefered Brucie myself rather than kelly though haha

 

[pepparz]

YOU BET hahah

god i used to love that bit, everyone on the setee would join in with the audience, happy days.

 

[pepparz]

we should start a thread called "The evolution of threads".

 

[Adam W]

This seems to have got a bit PC - IMO it shouldn't be about protecting the feelings of someone who genuinely believed they were clever enough to cram 3 or 4 years training into a few weeks; I think a homeowner has a right to know that the person they hired believing to be an electrician, the proprietor of the company with the signwritten van out the front, obtained all their qualifications in a matter of weeks and was previously working as a bank clerk or taxi driver.

 

[Guest111]

This seems to have got a bit PC - IMO it shouldn't be about protecting the feelings of someone who genuinely believed they were clever enough to cram 3 or 4 years training into a few weeks; I think a homeowner has a right to know that the person they hired believing to be an electrician, the proprietor of the company with the signwritten van out the front, obtained all their qualifications in a matter of weeks and was previously working as a bank clerk or taxi driver.

andthereby lies the answer,there should be some kind of database where joe public can check on an electrician,in the same way as you can with a doctor,hence the need for an electrical register,which brings up the debate surrounding scam membership all over again.

 

[Adam W]

andthereby lies the answer,there should be some kind of database where joe public can check on an electrician,in the same way as you can with a doctor,hence the need for an electrical register,which brings up the debate surrounding scam membership all over again.

But would the register prove the competence of the electrician doing the work, or the company he's working for?

 

[trev]

But would the register prove the competence of the electrician doing the work, or the company he's working for?

Does the Gas Safe register prove the competency of the heating bloke who just turned up on your doorstep?

 

[Hawkmoon]

This seems to have got a bit PC - IMO it shouldn't be about protecting the feelings of someone who genuinely believed they were clever enough to cram 3 or 4 years training into a few weeks; I think a homeowner has a right to know that the person they hired believing to be an electrician, the proprietor of the company with the signwritten van out the front, obtained all their qualifications in a matter of weeks and was previously working as a bank clerk or taxi driver.

Einstein worked as a bank clerk...

I think the issue here is not what they did before but the lack of what education/experience they need to do what they propose now - 5 weeks - a joke!!!

 

[Adam W]

Does the Gas Safe register prove the competency of the heating bloke who just turned up on your doorstep?

I don't know. Does it?
I think a lot of customers assume that if someone is 'allowed' to turn up on someone's doorstep to start tinkering with their gas, plumbing, electrics or whatever, that 'someone' (probably the government) had already deemed them competent to do so, in the same way if you register with a new doctor or dentist you shouldn't have to look them up on the internet to see if they're competent. The problem being you can register with a part p organisation and call yourself a fully qualified accredited domestic installer after 5 weeks training, or even just that someone else who works for the same company fulfilled the criteria of the part p organisation.

 

[Adam W]

Einstein worked as a bank clerk...

I think the issue here is not what they did before but the lack of what education/experience they need to do what they propose now - 5 weeks - a joke!!!

But did working as a bank clerk mean that Einstein made a good electrician?

 

[Guest111]

Adam the gas safe qualification is for the engineer not the company,each engineer must hold his own gas safe qualification,this takes us back to the argument for 1 register for all electricians instead of the mess we have now,it works for gas and would work for electrics,the only thing stopping it is the financial aspect.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Does the Gas Safe register prove the competency of the heating bloke who just turned up on your doorstep?

Trev, the gas safe system really does appear to address the fundamental issue. With gas safe not only does the business have to be registered but also every engineer who works on gas has to be registered and his registration has to be relevant for the appliance he is working on. For an engineer to get registration he/she has to pass the mandatory qualifications which have a very high pass rate (100%). e.g. If you are registered for Domestic boilers, you cannot legally work on commercial boilers. if you are registered for small piped gas you cannot work on large piped gas etc etc. There is no comparison with the electrical industry really. BTW I have just registered Plugs and Sparks with Gas safe and am currently going through my training and it really is quite refreshing. Having said all that if a gas engineer drops one, it still is down to the competence on the day but at least the rules are crystal clear. I heard on the radio someone locally being jailed for 2 months for a dodgy gas install, so I think you will find its more than a little more robust than the electrical trade. Also in my dealings with gas safe when registering they are very very professional and know their stuff. So far quite impressed

 

[NickD]

IMO it shouldn't be about protecting the feelings of someone who genuinely believed they were clever enough to cram 3 or 4 years training into a few weeks.

Perhaps not, but implicit in the Electrical Trainee term is the assumption that anyone doing the five weeks is trying to cram it all into that five weeks from the ground up, and does not have any pre-existing knowledge, experience or qualifications to bring to the show. In effect that tars everyone who takes the short course route with the same brush regardless of whether their previous existence was as a pastry chef or chief engineer at Rolls Royce.

 

[Adam W]

Pastry chef, chief engineer at Rolls Royce, IT technician, brain surgeon... None of which have any previous electrical experience relevant to wiring up buildings, the difference being I would expect the pastry chef to be the one to know their place and realise they can't cut corners with their training.

 

[NickD]

I would expect the pastry chef to be the one to know their place.

How very Downton Abbey

 

[Engineer54]

Also I think the 2-3 year to 5 week comparison is flawed. those of you did CG2330 on evening college courses only did one evening a week (4 hours) and at least 6 weeks you don't go. So 46 x 0.5 days = 23 days a year (4.6 weeks). So a 2 year course would be less than 10 weeks at college. Not such a big gap now is it.

Most apprentices will be going to college 1 day plus evening per week. Or, and i don't know if this still exists ''block release'' where the apprentice will do block term's at college....

Then you will need to add into the equation the experiences being gained under the patronage and watchful eye of a qualified electrician.

So in my book there is really no comparison, considering that on completion of that 3/4/5 year apprenticeship you will,( or should be) leaving with a core Lv 3 electrical qualification AM2 and hopefully NVQ Lv 3!! Not just an add on 17th edition, PAT qualification, and a worthless Part Pee qualification.

What's more, how anyone in their right mind, can accredit the 17th and PAT qualifications as being even remotely close to being Level 3 standard, is totally beyond my understanding!! But this lunacy results in these wannabe's having two level 3 qualifications under their belt, 5 weeks after they gave up the Tesco Shelf packing job!!