EICR Test Fail, before and after

[HappySlappy]

Hi, recently had an EICR test done by 'Landlord Certificates' which failed due to circuite 3 having two radial circuits into a single 32amp MCB, they advised splitting it into two 20amp MCB's and quoted £174 including EICR certificate. The Electrian appears to have simply taken out the 32amp MCB's and put in a 20amp and 16amp. Was the original actually a fail? And is what the Electrician has done now acceptable?

 

[Dustydazzler]

I imagine the 32a 'radial' (2 cables in the MCB) actually used to be a Ring and has now been infected / broken and lost its Ring continuity.
The correct cause of action would be first to try and correct the break and reinstate the original Ring.
If that is not possible then both cables could be put into one 20amp MCB,

If they are in fact 2 completely separate radials ( with no cross connections ) then they can be put on 2 separate MCBs , 16 amp or 20amp is fine

 

[James]

do you have any previous reports for the electrical installation?

 

[HappySlappy]

do you have any previous reports for the electrical installation?

It's my first EICR since the consumer unit was changed about 8 years ago, I have a building regs cert of compliance for that.

 

[James]

the installation cert for the consumer unit change would be a really useful thing to dig out and post here.
in particular the page marked "schedule of circuits"

 

[HappySlappy]

the installation cert for the consumer unit change would be a really useful thing to dig out and post here.
in particular the page marked "schedule of circuits"

It's just a single page cert from NICEIC, no schedule was ever issued to me.

 

[HappySlappy]

I imagine the 32a 'radial' (2 cables in the MCB) actually used to be a Ring and has now been infected / broken and lost its Ring continuity.
The correct cause of action would be first to try and correct the break and reinstate the original Ring.
If that is not possible then both cables could be put into one 20amp MCB,

If they are in fact 2 completely separate radials ( with no cross connections ) then they can be put on 2 separate MCBs , 16 amp or 20amp is fine

Thanks, it is an old building, probably had loads of messing around with the electrics over the years, so makes sense a ring may have become broken, I wonder why the guy who fitted the fuse box couldn't have come to the same conclusion as the EICR tester.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Thanks, it is an old building, probably had loads of messing around with the electrics over the years, so makes sense a ring may have become broken, I wonder why the guy who fitted the fuse box couldn't have come to the same conclusion as the EICR tester.

The sparks who changed the board might not have done end to end tests on the ring and just assumed it is a ring.
Without the original install cert with test results we will never know what was tested.
I am guess the guy doing the EICR has done end to end and can't get continuity of Ring

 

[westward10]

I take it they didn't comment on some awful connections in the consumer unit, one of which is at the new mcb and the missing busbar shield.

 

[HappySlappy]

I take it they didn't comment on some awful connections in the consumer unit and the missing busbar shield.

They did, I had a new boiler installed recently and the guy who wired in the thermostat also commented on how intidy it is, bit dissapointing given what it cost but what can I do? Some people have no pride in their work, but it is safe I assume, especially with the EICR just done.

 

[Dustydazzler]

For me the consumer unit is a good indicator on the sort of sparks you are.
Wires which are nice and neatly trimmed and dressed shows a certain level of care and attention, sadly lacking in 99% of domestic work I see these days

 

[westward10]

When I do an EICR I reconnect and tidy as necessary that is the difference between someone who is skilled and someone who doesn't care, the least they should have done is note it in the Report.

 

[oscar21]

That install is terrible, I'm no flamboyant artist when it comes to fitting them, usually because I always seem to find myself hunched double under the stairs or something but that is woeful. the worst bit is the incoming tails, looks like a 3 core SWA, the main earth is the solid yellow cable yet it seems to enter through a different un-grometed hole in the rear of the unit to the red and blue, where exactly does the single insulation begin and end on those cables, as we know it doesn't take much to nick the inner cores of SWA.

 

[brianmoooore]

My main concern with this would be, if these were originally RFCs that now do not have ring continuity, has the 'faulty' section been completely isolated from what has now become the far ends of radial circuits, or are there unterminated live exposed ends somewhere in the property?
It's often fine to split a RFC into two radials from the same fuse or MCB, but investigation is necessary to determine exactly what you're dealing with, and that the now missing section of the RFC is properly disconnected or terminated.

 

[HappySlappy]

Just to follow up on this, circuit three was indeed a ring that lost it's continuity, the work quoted for was to split this into two 20amp circuits with separate MCB's, instead they just replaced the MCB for a 20amp MCB, is this OK?

It actually looks like they have also downgraded circuit four to a 16amp MCB, this is presumably a ring that actually does have continuity, the guy who did the work did no testing after so this is obviously speculation, but could this potentially be unsafe?

 

[mainline]

Downsizing a breaker isn't going to make it unsafe, unless that circuit is needed for critical safety reasons.

Personally, I would have made an effort to repair what looks like 2 RFCs at the least.

They also could have made the effort of splitting the lights and RFCs between the RCDs.

 

[sxdave]

Sorry - did not see the latest posts today - much of below has already been commented on...
Perhaps I am missing something but I am puzzled as to why the MCB on circuit 4 has changed.
Looking at the 'before' photograph both MCB3 (32A) and MCB4 (32A) have two red line wires, suggesting (but not confirming) the existence of two ring circuits.
The original post makes no mention of a change to circuit4/MCB4 but this has changed to a 16A MCB in the 'after' photo but seems to indicate that a single 32A MCB is to be replaced by two off, 20A MCBs.
I wonder if one of these circuits (circuit4?) is still a ring which may now be susceptible to tripping as the MCB is only 16A. Obviously depends on the load on the circuit.

 

[mainline]

Downsizing a breaker isn't going to make it unsafe, unless that circuit is needed for critical safety reasons.

Sorry - did not see the latest posts today - much of below has already been commented on...
Perhaps I am missing something but I am puzzled as to why the MCB on circuit 4 has changed.
Looking at the 'before' photograph both MCB3 (32A) and MCB4 (32A) have two red line wires, suggesting (but not confirming) the existence of two ring circuits.
The original post makes no mention of a change to circuit4/MCB4 but this has changed to a 16A MCB in the 'after' photo but seems to indicate that a single 32A MCB is to be replaced by two off, 20A MCBs.
I wonder if one of these circuits (circuit4?) is still a ring which may now be susceptible to tripping as the MCB is only 16A. Obviously depends on the load on the circuit.

Without actually testing to see if it’s a ring or some radials feeding an immersion or something it’s hard to say but changing it for a 20 I can’t see doing any harm

Is there no labelling on the cu ?

 

[hasel5]

Could also be that the cables for the the 2 rings are in wrong The mcbs
As one leg from one ring in with other ring and same on other MCB

 

[brianmoooore]

Just to follow up on this, circuit three was indeed a ring that lost it's continuity, the work quoted for was to split this into two 20amp circuits with separate MCB's, instead they just replaced the MCB for a 20amp MCB, is this OK?

It actually looks like they have also downgraded circuit four to a 16amp MCB, this is presumably a ring that actually does have continuity, the guy who did the work did no testing after so this is obviously speculation, but could this potentially be unsafe?

It is extremely potentially unsafe if downrating the MCB on the incomplete ring is all they did, without ensuring that the faulty section of the ring is completely disconnected at each end.
Whether a single 20A MCB for both sections, and a 16A for the other is satisfactory depends on the calculated or estimated load for those circuits. If it is reasonably expected that the load on those circuits would exceed 20A or 16A respectively for more than a few minutes, then it is not satisfactory.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Could also be that the cables for the the 2 rings are in wrong The mcbs
As one leg from one ring in with other ring and same on other MCB

Yes I have come across this a lot after someone has done a board swap and they got the rings mixed up.
Very easy to spot as if you turn one Off one 32amp MCB off both Rings still remain On Live.

 

[mainline]

I've also seen where someone used a pair of 32amp mcbs one on each leg.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I've also seen where someone used a pair of 32amp mcbs one on each leg.

64amp ring

 

[mainline]

64amp ring

Yes, I got confused myself then, thinking the breakers would be in series.

 

[7029 dave]

Yes I have come across this a lot after someone has done a board swap and they got the rings mixed up.
Very easy to spot as if you turn one Off one 32amp MCB off both Rings still remain On Live.

Yup they have not end to end tested or they have and crossed the legs up I always double check and mark the legs for each RFC. So simple for a few minutes work.

 

[oscar21]

The best one I had recently was 2 circuits, 1 ring and 1 16 A radial but one leg of the ring was in the 32A along with the shed radial and the other leg of the ring was in the 16A MCB marked shed supply. Not only that the board was a mismatch of MCB's and the only way they could get some to fit was put them in upside down so when they were switched on they were all pointing different ways, oh and the board was mounted sideways.

That was fun trying to get the power to go off, had to switch the main switch off and then sit down and try and work out what on earth was going on.

 

[Dustydazzler]

A side ways mounted board with numerous makes of breakers with some mounted upside down and some sharing the same circuit.

That is some kind of special

 

[mainline]

A side ways mounted board with numerous makes of breakers with some mounted upside down and some sharing the same circuit.

That is some kind of special

Maybe the house has subsidence

 

[HappySlappy]

So sorry to resurrect this again, I still haven't got it resolved so I'm going to give up on the current Electrician and find a new one, he was supposed to come fix it but never turned up.

Anyway I bought one of those socket testers off Amazon just to see if there were any obvious faults and discovered something I think is odd.

On the image below I have labelled up the CU -

This is how it's labelled on the cover-
Circuit 1 - Cooker
Circuit 2 - Central Heating, NOTE: when turned off the boiler stays on
Circuit 3 - One Double socket in Bedroom 2, NOTE: when turned off boiler goes off too
Circuit 4 - Two Double sockets in living room, Two double sockets in Bedroom 1, and One Double Socket in Bedroom 2
Circuit 5 - Two double sockets in same cupboard as CU, and two Double sockets in Kitchen
Circuit 6 - Lights
Circuit 7 - Extractor Fan
Circuit 8 - Two Double sockets in Hallway

So it seems circuit 3 is a ring that serves just one socket, and the boiler. No clue what wire is in the central heating circuit, turning it off doesn't seem to turn anything off.

I'd like to get this tidied up and safe, plus I still need an EICR, when looking for a new electrician what do I tell them? It's not a full rewire is it?

It doesn't need to look like some piece of art but I'd like it to be of a standard where I'm not embarrassed to post a photo of it. Can I assume circuit 3 just needs to be turned into a radial, the boiler put into circuit 2, and a 32amp MCB added back to circuit 4, and then a tidy up?

Thanks so much for all the info posted, the electrician that did this was giving me the run-around, I was able to have a basic discussion about rings and radials and he backed down and admitted a mistake was made.

Cheers

 

[mainline]

So sorry to resurrect this again, I still haven't got it resolved so I'm going to give up on the current Electrician and find a new one, he was supposed to come fix it but never turned up.

Anyway I bought one of those socket testers off Amazon just to see if there were any obvious faults and discovered something I think is odd.

On the image below I have labelled up the CU -

View attachment 108529

This is how it's labelled on the cover-
Circuit 1 - Cooker
Circuit 2 - Central Heating, NOTE: when turned off the boiler stays on
Circuit 3 - One Double socket in Bedroom 2, NOTE: when turned off boiler goes off too
Circuit 4 - Two Double sockets in living room, Two double sockets in Bedroom 1, and One Double Socket in Bedroom 2
Circuit 5 - Two double sockets in same cupboard as CU, and two Double sockets in Kitchen
Circuit 6 - Lights
Circuit 7 - Extractor Fan
Circuit 8 - Two Double sockets in Hallway

So it seems circuit 3 is a ring that serves just one socket, and the boiler. No clue what wire is in the central heating circuit, turning it off doesn't seem to turn anything off.

I'd like to get this tidied up and safe, plus I still need an EICR, when looking for a new electrician what do I tell them? It's not a full rewire is it?

It doesn't need to look like some piece of art but I'd like it to be of a standard where I'm not embarrassed to post a photo of it. Can I assume circuit 3 just needs to be turned into a radial, the boiler put into circuit 2, and a 32amp MCB added back to circuit 4, and then a tidy up?

Thanks so much for all the info posted, the electrician that did this was giving me the run-around, I was able to have a basic discussion about rings and radials and he backed down and admitted a mistake was made.

Cheers

Is circuit 3 a ring ? Or is it already a pair of radials ?
Is the feed to the boiler via a fcu ?
What type of boiler is it ?
Do you have an immersion tank heater ?

 

[HappySlappy]

Is circuit 3 a ring ? Or is it already a pair of radials ?
Is the feed to the boiler via a fcu ?
What type of boiler is it ?
Do you have an immersion tank heater ?

The chap who come to do the EICR said 3 was a ring that had lost continuity, but I don't think he can be relied upon.
Yes Boiler has FCU.
Combi boiler - no tank, it was fitted last year by BG

 

[Diddy]

Sorry not much to add except to say those terminations are so bad they make my eyes bleed. Exposed copper all over the place.

I think you need a new electrician that comes recommended. If you don't know any from family or friends then at least you could look up NICEIC etc for a registered electrician from your area.