Faceplates for old socket boxes

[Barrieeld]

Hi folks I’m having an Edwardian home rewired, it’s not been done in 35 years it seems. I’ve came across some socket boxes in skirting which I can get out and wondered if there are new faceplates that would fit (screw points different on new boxes) if I cleaned away the conduit?

Thanks in advance.

 

[brianmoooore]

Pics would be good, but if you're referring to ordinary square and rectangular recessed boxes, the only change might be a change from imperial to metric on the threads for fixing the face plates, although in '87 they should have been metric already.

 

[davesparks]

Can you post some pictures, if they are non-standard back boxes they are likely older than 35 years, possibly left in place during the previous rewire.

In the past I've had custom brass adaptor plates made by a local sheet metal engineering company for historical back boxes.

 

[Barrieeld]

Pics would be good, but if you're referring to ordinary square and rectangular recessed boxes, the only change might be a change from imperial to metric on the threads for fixing the face plates, although in '87 they should have been metric already.

Hi brian I’ll post up pics tomorrow, the problem seems to be I can’t get these older boxes out of the wall so if I can’t remove them could I fit a new faceplate to them? I managed to get the single sockets out but this was only possible by making the space a double socket allow the only single box to come out.

 

[davesparks]

Hi brian I’ll post up pics tomorrow, the problem seems to be I can’t get these older boxes out of the wall so if I can’t remove them could I fit a new faceplate to them? I managed to get the single sockets out but this was only possible by making the space a double socket allow the only single box to come out.

What is the difference between them and a modern box? Are the the same size with different screw threads or a completely different size?

Are they made of cast iron? If they are it is possible to get them out neatly without causing damage with a bit of practice and the right technique.

 

[littlespark]

There are old socket boxes with 2 fixing lugs across the top and bottom edge as well as 1 on each side. Unused lugs can be bent out the way.

Get yourself a 3.5mm rethreader tool. Even if it is metric, the threads may need cleaned up.

35 years isn’t old. Try 55 if you’ve got strange shaped boxes.

Pics would certainly help.

Single boxes in skirting may also have been for 5A sockets, switched and on same circuit as lights.

Also too low on skirting and you may have trouble plugging things in.

 

[snowhead]

What sockets are in the boxes now, 13amp?

As others, electrical went metric in 1970 / 72.

If the issue is not being able to get the old boxes out then try drilling holes in the back of the box to collapse it.

Unless it's listed or historically interesting of some sort, leaving the old boxes in is just making it harder in the future.
There are now plenty of retro looking sockets fronts available and wooden patresses, at a price of course.

And definitely consider mounting them slightly higher up the wall than in the skirting.

 

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[Barrieeld]

Hi folks here is some images of the original socket and back box. So the problem is we cant remove the old back box as its attached to the conduit below and we don’t want to damage the existing skirting board either…thoughts?

 

[brianmoooore]

Is that VIR (rubber) insulation on the cable? Are the red and black wires made up of more than one strand of copper?
Definitely a non standard box, and pre dates my career, which started in the early '70s.

 

[littlespark]

Is that VIR (rubber) insulation on the cable? Are the red and black wires made up of more than one strand of copper?
Definitely a non standard box, and pre dates my career, which started in the early '70s.

This could predate Tels career, and that says something.

You won’t find anything that covers the box size, unless it’s expensive.

Was this socket in use? I’d be surprised if it’s powered, or even still connected. The conduit below floor could all be ripped out.
Just because OP said work was done 35 years ago. Maybe this was missed?

 

[davesparks]

Hi folks here is some images of the original socket and back box. So the problem is we cant remove the old back box as its attached to the conduit below and we don’t want to damage the existing skirting board either…thoughts?

Looks like an old cast iron box to me, they can be removed relatively easily.

Cast iron is brittle so you can take a cold chisel and break the box up from the middle outwards, chip away at it until you have the whole box out.

 

[Rockingit]

Discussions about box sizes and age aside.... if you're getting a rewire done then surely you'll end up with all new boxes at 450mm height anyway??

 

[pc1966]

They should be at 45cm+ height to avoid cables getting bent & damaged, and to make it easier for elderly or disabled folks, but if the walls are lath and plaster and horsehair still I can imagine a lot of grief in attempting that.

 

[davesparks]

Discussions about box sizes and age aside.... if you're getting a rewire done then surely you'll end up with all new boxes at 450mm height anyway??

No because its a rewire, not a new build.

 

[davesparks]

They should be at 45cm+ height to avoid cables getting bent & damaged, and to make it easier for elderly or disabled folks, but if the walls are lath and plaster and horsehair still I can imagine a lot of grief in attempting that.

No need to be 450mm above the floor for a rewire, thats just for newbuilds.

 

[brianmoooore]

No need to be 450mm above the floor for a rewire, thats just for newbuilds.

This is a building reg, rather than the 18th, so not so sure. Isn't there something about major alterations affecting a percentage of the property?

 

[freddo]

This is a building reg, rather than the 18th, so not so sure. Isn't there something about major alterations affecting a percentage of the property?

I think the wording is new heights when the building is being 'materially altered'.

That socket is worth saving for the collection! It's way older than 35 years old. I'm sure that design is advertised in one of the 1930s magazines I have here. I assume the socket is of an interlocking design?

 

[Dranok]

Hi folks here is some images of the original socket and back box. So the problem is we cant remove the old back box as its attached to the conduit below and we don’t want to damage the existing skirting board either…thoughts?

Oh wow! 1950/60s MK 15A sockets! BS546, still manufactured My house had them for the night storage heaters when we moved in, complete with the same Vulcanized India Rubber cotton weave sheath 3-strand cable, which today will likely be so brittle that you can't restrip it without it crumbling and you chasing further and further up the cable hoping to find a stable bit to splice on to.

If you have good reason to believe this was rewired 35 years ago then, as littlespark says, you'd likely find this is cut off and left in place for historical reasons (i.e. the same reasons you are concerned now!). Save the socket-outlet for posterity -- several people will bite your hand off for it -- trace and recover the cable as far back as you can (every future tradesman will blindly hate "whoever left all these old cables cut off unidentifed below the floorboards") then just screw a brass faceplate directly into the wood of the skirting. I think the modern plate should be just exactly enough wider to overlap the old cast iron box each side, which will save you smashing out the old box and picking out the pieces, because you may need to back fill the hole with firestop or intumescent pads given the likely contemporary wall construction.

If for some reason it seams more appropriate to put a new back box in (which will let you lay intumescent pads easily and screw on a blank faceplace properly), and you are not prevented by its being Grade 1 or English Heritage, smash out the old box and use a multitool to neatly open the skirting to new dimensions.

 

[davesparks]

This is a building reg, rather than the 18th, so not so sure. Isn't there something about major alterations affecting a percentage of the property?

Yes it is building regulations part M.

No percentages are mentioned. The requirement is for new-build and material alteration to properties and goes along with a whole host of other requirements for accessibility.

There is no reason to move the sockets up to 450mm accessibility height unless the building is being adapted to meet all of the other requirements of part M for accessibility.