Failed EPC

[jason121]

Does anyone know what happens when panels are installed on roof and the house fails its EPC. Would I have to remove them, not got anything in writing regarding this issue.:hanged:

 

[Gavin A]

you work with the EPC assessor to find the lowest cost way to get it to a D.

If there's no way of getting it there, then you're probably a bit scoobied if you've not got this well covered in your T&Cs. Either removal or a partial refund proportional to the percentage reduction in payback would probably be worst case scenario.

This probably is best discussed in the sun lounge though - are you able to request membership for that?

 

[pwboston]

Do you not do the EPC before you do the job?

 

[Earthstore]

I was thinking the same..

 

[jason121]

My assessor likes to them after we have finished to push the figures up. The place in question has double glazing, loft insulation, cavity wall, thermostat controls, a few low energy lights and a dreaded LPG back boiler. That caught me out. He wants ASHP next year. He can not afford it this year.

 

[jason121]

you work with the EPC assessor to find the lowest cost way to get it to a D.

If there's no way of getting it there, then you're probably a bit scoobied if you've not got this well covered in your T&Cs. Either removal or a partial refund proportional to the percentage reduction in payback would probably be worst case scenario.

This probably is best discussed in the sun lounge though - are you able to request membership for that?

Unsure how to request the sun lounge

 

[Earthstore]

Unsure how to request the sun lounge

Ask the mods for access.

 

[Marvo]

Unsure how to request the sun lounge

I've requested access for you, it needs to be done by Admin. If you don't hear anything in a day or so please send me a PM to remind me and I'll follow up on the request.

 

[Gavin A]

My assessor likes to them after we have finished to push the figures up. The place in question has double glazing, loft insulation, cavity wall, thermostat controls, a few low energy lights and a dreaded LPG back boiler. That caught me out. He wants ASHP next year. He can not afford it this year.

detached?

what points did it get?

all energy saving lights
cylinder jacket on hot water tank
Immersun for water heating? Should be able to persuade the EPC assessor to put that down as solar water heating IMO

that'd get you a few points if you're just under.

 

[jason121]

EPC scored 34

 

[Gavin A]

EPC scored 34

eh?

how much PV has it got?

seems pretty odd to me for somewhere with CWI, loft insulation, double glazing, pv etc.

 

[jason121]

3kw PV

 

[SRE]

We get these all the time - I've turned away 3 jobs in the last month for similar reasons. If I were the customer I just wouldn't apply for the Fit for a year until I'd sorted out the heating side of things. Prices will have increased by next year so he's saved some cash on his install by doing it this year (potentialy enough to ofset not getting the fit this year and got some free electric. Next year he'll get a slightly reduced fit payment. Even at 7.1p it's not the end of the world, the return is still often better than ISA's it's just that the expectation is for 15.4p.

 

[Greenday]

Something seems wrong with that score to me. Why don't you have another EPC done with a different assessor and re-lodge. With what you have said about the property along with the PV surely it would be a D.

 

[Ian-LS]

Yes agree that doesn't add up. The rating should be more like C at least.

 

[Earthstore]

"Earthstore, why do you jump in with both feet before knowing all the facts."

Sorry Jason. do you remember that quote??
At least mine was only advice, but installing PV without the EPC facts, come on, really..

I feel that your assessor has cocked up somewhere though, and I truly hope that you can sort it.

 

[Ian-LS]

We actually get the EPC afterwards but only on houses we know will already have an EPC of D such as houses built in the last 30 years with most boxes ticked. The older properties with solid walls we will get a predictive EPC done as if the solar has been installed that why we can install with confidence knowing the property will have an EPC of at least D.

 

[SolarRoofSols]

We always get it done before, unless the homeowner already has an EPC. The assessor doesn't lodge the case if it has not met a D, if PV will push it into the D bracket, he revisits after the installation to fulfill his requirements for his accrediting body and then lodges. It costs a little more but I prefer to know 100%.

I hope you get it sorted.

 

[SRE]

Something seems wrong with that score to me. Why don't you have another EPC done with a different assessor and re-lodge. With what you have said about the property along with the PV surely it would be a D.

We get these all the time - regardless of the person doing the EPC. Back boilers are around 60% efficient, even natural gas ones struggle to get a decent rating unless there's substantial insulation & double glazing. Add lpg and you're doomed. It's rural discrimination clear and simple - if you have access to natural gas then you have to spend a lot less than on getting an EPC of D than if you're off the natural gas grid. Infuriating!

We had an F rating last week for a 1991 property with full cavity wall and loft insulation, zoned heating and double glazing. The reason - wet electric heating. It was going to cost the best part of 4-5k to put new oil central heating in and his bills would have been higher because his electric heating runs off peak 5.4p/kwh instead of 6.7p/kwh for oil. He'd have achieved a D rating with it though and could have had his pv at 15.4p. We did the decent thing - told the truth and lost a sale

 

[jason121]

"Earthstore, why do you jump in with both feet before knowing all the facts."

Sorry Jason. do you remember that quote??
At least mine was only advice, but installing PV without the EPC facts, come on, really..

I feel that your assessor has cocked up somewhere though, and I truly hope that you can sort it.

I leave it for the assessor to book in the appointments. I send him the information and install dates and he decides when to turn up. He is young and its his first LPG system on a back boiler. Live and learn the hard way. Told him to do the EPC before the installs last night :6:

 

[Gavin A]

Yes agree that doesn't add up. The rating should be more like C at least.

not with an old back boiler it wouldn't, but I would have thought it would be a high E / low D with the PV.

I'm assuming it must be detached, which also makes a fair amount of difference as it's got all 4 walls losing heat to the outside.

I'd think the best bet is going to be to persuade the customer to wait to submit the fit application until the boiler is sorted out, and see if they can bring that forward - renewable heat premium payments have just doubled which might help?

 

[Greenday]

Do another EPC but don't use the Product Characteristics Database use SAP instead. On the Stroma software you can select pre 1998 LPG with open flue. There is no drop down for an LPG back boiler.

I still think this job would gain a D anyway. It would if I was doing the EPC

 

[jason121]

With lot of apologies and the options you guys gave me, I sold him a ASHP. Close shave. Thanks for all the input guys much appreciated.

 

[Earthstore]

I am glad you sorted it and it will pay dividends for the customer too...

 

[Eco Deal]

Did you all know your assessor can do a lodge EPC befor before the install then you can ask them to give you a draft copy with the solar panels on so you can see the rating of the house with solar in draft ?

its common sense !

if you sold the system and said you would get the higher tarriff and it does not then your stuffed but if you told them it depend on the EPC the you are ok.

 

[Gavin A]

Did you all know your assessor can do a lodge EPC befor before the install then you can ask them to give you a draft copy with the solar panels on so you can see the rating of the house with solar in draft ?

its common sense !

if you sold the system and said you would get the higher tarriff and it does not then your stuffed but if you told them it depend on the EPC the you are ok.

yes, but unfortunately the EPC bodies got firmly instructed that if the EPC assessor did this, then he still had to go back and take full pictures of everything again after the installation before lodging the EPC to include the solar panels, so doing a pre and post install epc means 2 full visits to site.

All of which is a complete waste of time and money and results in situations like this, but that's what happens when the body that's charged by parliament with reducing the regulatory burden on the energy industry is also the body charged with setting the rules, and trying to use every trick in the book to keep fit costs down for government.

The original way of doing things was far more sensible, doing the EPC visit prior to the solar installation, then just accepting a photo and MCS cert as evidence that the solar installation had been carried out. But Ofgem don't do sensible.

 

[sedgy34]

3kw PV

Is your customer eligible for Eco funding he could get an a rated boiler and then you may get your D & its free
just a thought

 

[jason121]

dont think so they are on bottled gas

 

[sedgy34]

For your ref
Glowworm combis come with a setting for bottled gas they will work

 

[jason121]

got them funding for ASHP

 

[sedgy34]

Well that might soften the blow when you tell them they won't get the FIT

 

[Eco Deal]

Gavin your missing my point

if the EPC rating is below a D with no solar

then get your assessor to add solar to see if it goes higher than a D

THEN you know its safe to install!

so after the install get a new EPC with solar so its higher than a D

 

[Eckaslike]

Whats all this agro. about EPC I do electrical work for Landlords, they obtain ECP for every property, they dont carry out any recomendations
and future tenents dont ask for a copy of the EPC. So what is the point, seems like another Govenment ripoff.

 

[dansk]

Gavin your missing my point

if the EPC rating is below a D with no solar

then get your assessor to add solar to see if it goes higher than a D

THEN you know its safe to install!

so after the install get a new EPC with solar so its higher than a D

the point is its still two trips to site, one before and one after!

 

[Eco Deal]

jes I know its two trips I not on about that , I am saying instead of being dumb enough to install solar before the epc , if the house is below a D when you have an EPC ask the assessor to see what it goes to when you add solar !!!!


so then you know when you fit the panels it will make the grade!


its common sense

I KNOW ITS TWO TRIPS!!!

 

[sedgy34]

jes I know its two trips I not on about that , I am saying instead of being dumb enough to install solar before the epc , if the house is below a D when you have an EPC ask the assessor to see what it goes to when you add solar !!!!


so then you know when you fit the panels it will make the grade!


its common sense

I KNOW ITS TWO TRIPS!!!

Give up mate penny hasn't dropped

 

[Earthstore]

Whats all this agro. about EPC I do electrical work for Landlords, they obtain ECP for every property, they dont carry out any recomendations
and future tenents dont ask for a copy of the EPC. So what is the point, seems like another Govenment ripoff.

It is to do with the FIT (feed in tariff) for solar panels, a house must achieve a minimum of band D to be eligible for this payment, just more complex government rules that is all..

I hope this helps.

 

[Gavin A]

Give up mate penny hasn't dropped

no the penny has dropped - why do you think that the 2 posters who no longer fit solar are the 2 being smart arses about it, and all the installers still working in the field are telling you this is a problem?

2 visits = £100, and 2 visits to arrange for the EPC assessor with customers who might not be available through the day, etc.

The original situation was fairly sensible, where we'd get an initial EPC carried out but not logged, then just send the MCs cert to the assessor after the job and they'd then log the EPC cert without needing a second visit. The current situation's just overly complex and either adding extra costs for no good reason, or resulting in installers gambling that a house will make a D as seems to have been the case here.

 

[sedgy34]

The second visit is quicker than a drive by shooting a draft can be done before install too ask your Dea before customers become loosers
there is another way too rather than a second visit from a Dea take a pic of install with date and time on it from the ground and send it to him that's what he would have anyway if Dea was to do a 2nd visit

 

[dansk]

The second visit is quicker than a drive by shooting a draft can be done before install too ask your Dea before customers become loosers
there is another way too rather than a second visit from a Dea take a pic of install with date and time on it from the ground and send it to him that's what he would have anyway if Dea was to do a 2nd visit

This is what has been happening until the EPC body started crying and told all DEA to go back and do another full bloody report! because the MCS cert and photos wasnt enough - well thats what the straight DEA are doing anyway.

 

[dansk]

jes i know its two trips i not on about that , i am saying instead of being dumb enough to install solar before the epc , if the house is below a d when you have an epc ask the assessor to see what it goes to when you add solar !!!!


So then you know when you fit the panels it will make the grade!


Its common sense

i know its two trips!!!

well done!!:ciappa:

 

[sedgy34]

This is what has been happening until the EPC body started crying and told all DEA to go back and do another full bloody report! because the MCS cert and photos wasnt enough - well thats what the straight DEA are doing anyway.

Thats just nonsense they have all the info from first visit and pics after commission
admittedly there are some Dea jobs worths out there

 

[dansk]

i dont make the rules - but thats what our said and does - and Gavins (not the same people)

So you can see - its twice the EPC cost which is what we was getting at - where dumb enough to know we can ask the DEA to model the EPC with the additional solar on to see what the rating could be.

 

[sedgy34]

i dont make the rules - but thats what our said and does - and Gavins (not the same people)

So you can see - its twice the EPC cost which is what we was getting at - where dumb enough to know we can ask the DEA to model the EPC with the additional solar on to see what the rating could be.

Have you challenged ofgem about it if you cn make them see sense they will move the goalposts

 

[dansk]

I cant be arsed with it TBH - and im not doing enough solar to be concerned.

 

[Eco Deal]

my post was not to do with cost it was advice on how to avoid installing a system and becoming a cropper , you can not assume that the house will be a D once you install solar !

another point here is did you all know that under the green deal a second visit is NOT required ! so i wonder why you have to go back for solar !

you only need photograpic evidence or documents for the POST EPC under green deal.