Fire Rated Downlights - FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Octopus]

So I was first fixing a bathroom yesterday and the plumber chap has drilled the holes in the ceiling - when I looked up one of the holes I could see that the hole cutter had "kissed" one joist and had just missed another (the house has had a loft conversion hence why the 2nd joist is so close to the original ones.

When I questioned fitting the light - he said its a "fire rated" downlight so "clearances" don't matter - in fact he's fitted loads and is never bothered about all in insulation covering them (bare in mind he likes CED £10.00 halogen 50w units!)

The box the lights come in didn't have any clearance information on it, but on reading the instructions in the box, it clearly states 75mm clearance all round.

So after a bit of humming and haring - it was agree that a new hole would be drilled in a "sensible" location and be big enough for a tilt unit & that I could supply & fit the lights. He takes lights back for a refund. All good I think......


The customer sees the new hole later and asks for it to be put back to the original position - so the numpty agrees. I get a text today telling me to go to site on Monday to fit a JB and extend the cable to the "original" location.

I say I won't make the change and if he wants to do it he's on his own!

Get a text back saying send invoice to client for work done so far he'll "get somebody else" to do it.

Now me knows he dabbles with electrics so I'm sure he'll do it himself.




Now now the dilema - the man of the house is away skiing for a few days and he emails me today asking how its going ..... so how do I respond???

A) Do I submit invoice and ignore it - its not tested formally as its only first fixed?

B) Do I submit invoice and add note on covering email about joists?

C) Do I submit invoice and note on invoice issue with proximity of joists?


I'm considering B) or C)!

Thoughts chaps

 

[Guest77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjdRgBAY278

 

[infinity]

Just income or your time and in the email wrote exactly what you wrote above regarding the scenario. Job done, you advised what needed to be done as a qualified electrician and the plumber didn't agree so it's down to him!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Either B or C.....client needs to know that you wanted to install lights as per manufacturers instruction and the responsibility for ignoring those is out of your hands.

 

[Octopus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjdRgBAY278

Brilliant - especially as Tel was the special guest star!!

 

[yellowvanman]

You also need to mention that it won't be signed off for Part P! As I assume you wouldn't!

 

[andyb]

Who's your client, the home owner or the plumber?

 

[Octopus]

Who's your client, the home owner or the plumber?

We are both billing directly, both of us have done work for him before. But this time the plumber gave me the nod about the job - then I went in and said he needed a new CU before I would touch the bathroom - which was all done and dusted about 10 days ago!

 

[Leesparkykent]

I would smooth it over with the plumber and both of you speak to the client. No point burning bridges IMO.

 

[Des 56]

Have him to agree this and crack on,as you said the plumber will move them so get him to use gu10 leds and state on the certificate that the proximity to joists was explained and it is the intention of the client to relocate the fittings

 

[andyb]

We are both billing directly, both of us have done work for him before. But this time the plumber gave me the nod about the job - then I went in and said he needed a new CU before I would touch the bathroom - which was all done and dusted about 10 days ago!

Then the way that I see it is that you work for and have a duty of care to the home owner & the plumber has no say in it.
This is only my opinion but I would email the customer explaining that all is going well but it is not possible to locate the down lights in his preferred position due to the layout of joists. I'd make no reference at this stage of walking away from the job, suggest alternative positions and ask for the go ahead.
If the client insists (and I'm sure he wont) that you locate them where you are not happy then refuse, invoice for work completed and wish him luck.

Then knee the plumber in the balls on the way out.

 

[Welchyboy1]

How come the plumber was drilling the holes for the downlights?, have i got that right?

 

[Dcf]

Buy him a pint.
plumbers round my way just want to turn nuts and nothing else
never mind cutting out downlights holes for me(all be it in the wrong position in this case)

 

[Des 56]

Then knee the plumber in the balls on the way out.

Bit late in the day to going doing that sort of thing,shame on you,best carried out earlier on when you have lots of knee energy

 

[Octopus]

How come the plumber was drilling the holes for the downlights?, have i got that right?

he likes to do as much as possible ....... himself

 

[Guest77]

Well I wouldn't keep on questioning Clive myself, one of the best Sparks on the forum, I would answer his OP Question, my answer is C, that said B would also work.

 

[Octopus]

Well I wouldn't keep on questioning Clive myself, one of the best Sparks on the forum, I would answer his OP Question, my answer is C, that said B would also work.

Thing is, when you work for yourself, often on your owm, sometimes you need to run things past others to get a check on what is best.

TBH if I don't work with this muppet again it won't be a problem!

Thanks guys

 

[Guest77]

Apologies if I have offended you mate, I wouldn't want the Mods to remove this thread because it was offensive.

 

[specs]

C with a covering e-mail . ( you can put all your concerns in e-mail and att a copy of mail with invoice) and let the plumber issue a cert. It's your rep on the line, not the plumbers, if it all goes t-ts up you are covered. you have stated on invoice + you have stated on e-mail. that's 2 warnings about going against manufacturers instructions (3 including the verbal ) get paid, put everything in a file and move on
. I am fortunate I work full time for a company, if I say it cannot be done the way they or the architects say they want it I always win and they have to have a rethink . If it goes against what you know is right, cover yourself at all costs. wish I could be of more help.

 

[Welchyboy1]

he likes to do as much as possible ....... himself

Well thats his problem them isnt it, how annoying

you should of cored the hole out for his waste pipe out on the other side of the room

 

[Octopus]

UPDATE:

PMSL

Just had a text asking me for my opinion about a LAP adjustable downlight!!!!!!

 

[Leesparkykent]

UPDATE:

PMSL

Just had a text asking me for my opinion about a LAP adjustable downlight!!!!!!

tell them to drop the L and add CR! Lol

 

[Adam W]

I'd go for C.
I agree with Des though - LED downlighters or GU10 LEDs are the way forward. From an electrician's point of view you don't get the problems with heat damage (the bane of my life atm) but it would be easier to sell to the client as reducing energy costs.
Either way if the downlighters are too close to the joists you can only put them in one way around due to the springs, which again can be a PITA.
Adjustable downighters are all good and well if they'll only ever be pointing in 'the right' direction.

Why does the client want them in the original positions? Is it down to preserving a pattern or for another reason?

 

[Octopus]

I'd go for C.
I agree with Des though - LED downlighters or GU10 LEDs are the way forward. From an electrician's point of view you don't get the problems with heat damage (the bane of my life atm) but it would be easier to sell to the client as reducing energy costs.
Either way if the downlighters are too close to the joists you can only put them in one way around due to the springs, which again can be a PITA.
Adjustable downighters are all good and well if they'll only ever be pointing in 'the right' direction.

Why does the client want them in the original positions? Is it down to preserving a pattern or for another reason?

the JCC ones can be "rotated" within the housing so it will always be in the right place!

 

[Adam W]

the JCC ones can be "rotated" within the housing so it will always be in the right place!

Oh 'fire rated' ones (just re-read the title).
Yes I suppose they would be.

 

[Delboybully]

The answer to this is easy. If this job was being done for your mother, what would you prefer the electriciain to put on the invoice a,b or c. Option D would be for the electrician to reply in the email from the customer his concerns.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I haven't read the whole thread Murdoch but I would go for C. Hopefully the client is a reasonable person and once you've explained the situation and given the facts they may agree with you. If they don't then send invoice and leave it. It's very frustrating thinking that there are many people doing this kind of work, but once you have voiced your opinion you have done all you can and should feel comfortable with that, otherwise you'll be cross quite a lot of the time!

 

[sparksburnout]

I can't imagine actually fitting halogen down lights now, they should be banned. Too costly to run, a fire hazard and LED's are so much better all round, it's not like they are that expensive these days.

 

[SJD]

I can't imagine actually fitting halogen down lights now, they should be banned. Too costly to run, a fire hazard and LED's are so much better all round, it's not like they are that expensive these days.

I agree, new installations should be LED now, perhaps we need the EU to introduce a ban on halogens for new installs.

Only yesterday, I was at a rental property sorting out half a dozen downlight faults in several rooms, 3 of them had burn-out plastic connection blocks and housings, in 2 cases I'd say it was lucky they'd not caught fire.

 

[Tidy Max]

Give the home owner a quote to move the boiler flue to underneath a window and see how the plumber reacts.

 

[sparksburnout]

I agree, new installations should be LED now, perhaps we need the EU to introduce a ban on halogens for new installs.

Only yesterday, I was at a rental property sorting out half a dozen downlight faults in several rooms, 3 of them had burn-out plastic connection blocks and housings, in 2 cases I'd say it was lucky they'd not caught fire.

Be far better banning halogen down lights than plastic CU's. I wouldn't personally fit a halogen if asked now.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I agree, new installations should be LED now, perhaps we need the EU to introduce a ban on halogens for new installs.

Only yesterday, I was at a rental property sorting out half a dozen downlight faults in several rooms, 3 of them had burn-out plastic connection blocks and housings, in 2 cases I'd say it was lucky they'd not caught fire.

Reasonable provision to comply with part L would be to provide fixed energy efficient light fittings, at a ratio of three per four of all the light fittings on new builds so you wouldn't get away installing halogen down lights throughout each room they would have to be led or cfl.

 

[Octopus]

I am at my sister in laws. Big 4 year old house - 31 down lights in the kitchen diner!. I have lost count of all the halogen lamps elsewhere.

How it passed the final inspection is beyond me

 

[sparksburnout]

I am at my sister in laws. Big 4 year old house - 31 down lights in the kitchen diner!. I have lost count of all the halogen lamps elsewhere.

How it passed the final inspection is beyond me

makes me titter, everyone moans about the Leccy companies ripping us off but run 50w bulbs where they could run a 4.......

 

[nickblake]

this was a fire rated down light that caused this. the shell of a fire rated down light using a halogen light can exceed 100 degree, I have measured one at 135 degree's , a fire rated down lighter wont protect the beams ,just the integrity of the ceiling in the event of a fire

 

[UNG]

My brother has a kid's day nursery the previous owner had installed a number halogen downlights next to the ceiling beams the problem was found before it became a fire because the resin out of the wood started dripping from around some of the lights, when I investigated it some of the beams had quite significant charing. Having said that when I did a PIR on the place I asked for the previous cert and was given a very unconvincing to me 2 sided single page NICEIC fake that had been accepted by Ofsted and the other local authority inspection bods without comment makes you wonder how many other nurseries have the same issues

 

[telectrix]

it's all OK now. the IET know of the problem and have now banned plastic CUs. apparently they are the only cause of house fires.

 

[Octopus]

UPDATE: It gets better!

So the installed leaves for the "customer organised" plasterer to come in and skim the room - and when he returns he finds the plasterer has boarded the ceiling and plastered it. Anyones guess where the holes are.

I didn't make a map and neither did the installer!!

 

[Delboybully]

HAHAHA. Some lack of communication between the plumber and the spread. Best left to them to sort out!

 

[telectrix]

a wet-pants and a muck spreader involved with lighting.

another fine mess.