general rant....ish

Post new thread

Discuss general rant....ish in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

stanleyblade

stanleyblade

-
Reaction score
10
firstly , good evening all, the weekend is here at long last. I am fairly new to this forum, so if i have posted this in the wrong place , then please accept my appologies.
I have a few things to say, a few things to ask, so please be patient and i shall try to be brief, but you may have to get comfy.
I read nearly all the posts etc on this forum and find them a great source of information, if i encounter a problem i look to see if anyone has posted anything that may help, in the process i often find solutions to problems that i have not encountered but may do one day, and as they say forewarned is forarmed . I also occasionally laugh out loud to some great stories and have to then explain to my family exactly what is that has tickled me. I am grateful to all those that post , and those that reply,and have the utmost respect in knowing they have worked extremely hard to get there qualifications and share there knowledge with us all.Thankyou.
BUT I AM A KITCHEN FITTER, No, iI am not part "pee" registered, as some of us have the common sense to know that part p is part of the building regs and not a qualification. I am registered with napit on there competent persons scheme. No , i am not a Electrical Trainee, i am actually a 1ww , as the full scope course i took lasted .....yes a whole week !!! Admittedly you wouldnt give some of the people on the course a fisher price screwdriver, let alone a test meter.This does NOT in any way make me an electrician , electrical installer or any other fancy name that some of my colleagues may give themselves. I have been a fitter for about 20 odd years, and, take a great deal of pride in my job and carry out every aspect of it to the best of my ability and to whatever rules or regulations that may be relevant to each part of the the job. I took the full scope course as i wanted to make sure that anything i did i did in the correct way according to regs , and most importantly safely, not just for me but the customer too. Therefore i do find it a bit sad that we seem to be reffered to in a bit of a jokey way, and put down with the references to Electrical Trainee and part pee. Yes , i agree as said earlier that some shouldnt put a plug in a socket let alone install wiring etc. But , also having said that i totally understand that as time served and qualified people your trade is being eroded , whether by our european friends working for five pounds and a pot noodle per day, or by schemes etc where for five hundred quid or so anyone can be "qualified "to do your job (not)
As i said before , and i will repeat, i respect your hard work , and the help i and others get from you, and again thankyou, and long may this forum be here for all to see and use.
That is my something to say out of the way, now for my question(s),
I have, since tuesday been fitting a kitchen, worth about 23k. i got to installing the appliances yesterday ,integrated fridge, washing machine, 3.6k microwave, 3.65k single oven/grill, inductioin hob and dishwasher. When i looked at how the connections were to be made i was a bit miffed to say the least. The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket. But no sign of any of isolating switches anywhere in the kitchen. So, i speak to the customer who phoned the builder, who happens to be a relative and he tells me " dont worry about switches , as all the apppliances are run on there own radial circuits directly into c.u via rcbo's as it saves pulling the appliances out to change the fuse if anything were to go wrong with them". (The cu is in the basement). i knew this was wrong , but left it till i got home last night. I then used the forum to look up relevant questions on isolating cookers etc and found references to regs etc. I called the guy that i get my work from and informed him that i would not be connecting appliances as the arrangement for isolation did not conform to regs, and that the oven , hob and microwave should have a means of isolation a maximum of 2 mtrs away, and that other appliances should be able to be isolated by means of switched fused spur, either wall mounted or if not possible in the front of the nearest cupboard .This morning i rang tech at napit and explained situation, and was told the arrangement was not suitable, didnt meet regs, or indeed manufacturers guidance, and that i had done the right thing in not connecting them.
I compiled e-mail stating regs and BS numbers relating to appropriate isolating switches and sent copy to kitchen company .I also explained to customer why i would not be making connections.This evening the builder and electrician turned up and we had words, I told them both that i wasnt preparedpto carry out the connection , and the reasons why. the electrician then informed me that he had done the job like this as the customer did not want any switches on show, and that he had fitted them in the basement next to cu. i said it did not conform to regs, and was basically talked over and ignored as if idid not know what i was talking about and got the distinct impreession the customer was not impressed . His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off??? Also he siad he is prepared to certify the job. Now i am left feeling let down, and bit pi@@ed off to say the least, i want to know what you think as i value your opinions, and what if anything i sould do. I m sorry this has been a megga post but hope you understand, and look forward to any replies
 
Good for you standing by your principles.

Quite common for customers to refuse spurs/grids above worktop.

I can usually persuade them to hide them away in cupboard as a compramise.

If not I record it as a deviation from regs insisted on by customer
 
The way i'v always looked at it is that if that appliance suddenly burst into flames, how would it be quickly and safely isolated? By pulling out the appliance or rooting through the pan cupboard? Don't think so!

I'm not really 100% sure about the regs on this, but to me atleast, it seems like common sense to have a switch easily accessable above worktops, and i'v never done it differently.
 
There is no requirement for a cooker switch in BS7671.
RCBOs and MCBs are suitable for isolation.
The only time isolation is required to be near to the item requiring isolation, is if the isolation is required for emergency purposes.
Cookers in domestic installations, do not require emergency isolation.
Emergency isolation, is really only required for industrial machinery.
As for applinces bursting into flames, would you really want to go anywhere near the applince to isolate it?
 
stanleyblade said:
firstly , good evening all, the weekend is here at long last. I am fairly new to this forum, so if i have posted this in the wrong place , then please accept my appologies.
I have a few things to say, a few things to ask, so please be patient and i shall try to be brief, but you may have to get comfy.
I read nearly all the posts etc on this forum and find them a great source of information, if i encounter a problem i look to see if anyone has posted anything that may help, in the process i often find solutions to problems that i have not encountered but may do one day, and as they say forewarned is forarmed . I also occasionally laugh out loud to some great stories and have to then explain to my family exactly what is that has tickled me. I am grateful to all those that post , and those that reply,and have the utmost respect in knowing they have worked extremely hard to get there qualifications and share there knowledge with us all.Thankyou.
BUT I AM A KITCHEN FITTER, No, iI am not part "pee" registered, as some of us have the common sense to know that part p is part of the building regs and not a qualification. I am registered with napit on there competent persons scheme. No , i am not a Electrical Trainee, i am actually a 1ww , as the full scope course i took lasted .....yes a whole week !!! Admittedly you wouldnt give some of the people on the course a fisher price screwdriver, let alone a test meter.This does NOT in any way make me an electrician , electrical installer or any other fancy name that some of my colleagues may give themselves. I have been a fitter for about 20 odd years, and, take a great deal of pride in my job and carry out every aspect of it to the best of my ability and to whatever rules or regulations that may be relevant to each part of the the job. I took the full scope course as i wanted to make sure that anything i did i did in the correct way according to regs , and most importantly safely, not just for me but the customer too. Therefore i do find it a bit sad that we seem to be reffered to in a bit of a jokey way, and put down with the references to Electrical Trainee and part pee. Yes , i agree as said earlier that some shouldnt put a plug in a socket let alone install wiring etc. But , also having said that i totally understand that as time served and qualified people your trade is being eroded , whether by our european friends working for five pounds and a pot noodle per day, or by schemes etc where for five hundred quid or so anyone can be "qualified "to do your job (not)
As i said before , and i will repeat, i respect your hard work , and the help i and others get from you, and again thankyou, and long may this forum be here for all to see and use.
That is my something to say out of the way, now for my question(s),
I have, since tuesday been fitting a kitchen, worth about 23k. i got to installing the appliances yesterday ,integrated fridge, washing machine, 3.6k microwave, 3.65k single oven/grill, inductioin hob and dishwasher. When i looked at how the connections were to be made i was a bit miffed to say the least. The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket. But no sign of any of isolating switches anywhere in the kitchen. So, i speak to the customer who phoned the builder, who happens to be a relative and he tells me " dont worry about switches , as all the apppliances are run on there own radial circuits directly into c.u via rcbo's as it saves pulling the appliances out to change the fuse if anything were to go wrong with them". (The cu is in the basement). i knew this was wrong , but left it till i got home last night. I then used the forum to look up relevant questions on isolating cookers etc and found references to regs etc. I called the guy that i get my work from and informed him that i would not be connecting appliances as the arrangement for isolation did not conform to regs, and that the oven , hob and microwave should have a means of isolation a maximum of 2 mtrs away, and that other appliances should be able to be isolated by means of switched fused spur, either wall mounted or if not possible in the front of the nearest cupboard .This morning i rang tech at napit and explained situation, and was told the arrangement was not suitable, didnt meet regs, or indeed manufacturers guidance, and that i had done the right thing in not connecting them.
I compiled e-mail stating regs and BS numbers relating to appropriate isolating switches and sent copy to kitchen company .I also explained to customer why i would not be making connections.This evening the builder and electrician turned up and we had words, I told them both that i wasnt preparedpto carry out the connection , and the reasons why. the electrician then informed me that he had done the job like this as the customer did not want any switches on show, and that he had fitted them in the basement next to cu. i said it did not conform to regs, and was basically talked over and ignored as if idid not know what i was talking about and got the distinct impreession the customer was not impressed . His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off??? Also he siad he is prepared to certify the job. Now i am left feeling let down, and bit pi@@ed off to say the least, i want to know what you think as i value your opinions, and what if anything i sould do. I m sorry this has been a megga post but hope you understand, and look forward to any replies
Click to expand...

That electrician obviously never heard of the term, 'local isolation'... jesus... i do worry about some of the cowboys installing nowadays.. you shouldve asked him.. 'if a customer asked you to put all the sockets in his kitchen near the sink so he doesnt have to go far when he fills the kettle.. would he do it?'
 
spinlondon said:
There is no requirement for a cooker switch in BS7671.
RCBOs and MCBs are suitable for isolation.
The only time isolation is required to be near to the item requiring isolation, is if the isolation is required for emergency purposes.
Cookers in domestic installations, do not require emergency isolation.
Emergency isolation, is really only required for industrial machinery.
Click to expand...

^ this is true, though its a questionof good practise here really.
 
I suppose its not a question of what we think we should do,but what complies
I dont for a moment want to justify the design, or agree, but I will give opinion that would have to be answered to condemn the install

quote
His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off?​


It would appear that all you are left with to argue is whether the isolation of the appliances should be local, or is remote isolation adequate (that is if the appliances don't meet the isolation question in the first instance)

The isolation arguments that abound, it could be reasonably argued, that the main switch of the consumer unit covers just about anything and the cooker is the only contender for local isolation and its already been mentioned that there is no requirement for it to be an emergency switch,

It doesn't look to me like its a done deal that the installer is out of order​
 
P6280020.JPGHere is another view they did a few years ago that i got called out today instead 4 seperate switches there are 4 on the grid great you say but they are MEM and you cannot get them (unless you know)
 
Idi just try to reply to a few comments , but pressed wrong button and lost it all!! I took appendix H4 cooker circuits in household and similar premises to mean that a cooker or hob etc should have control switch or cooker control no more than2 mtrs away from appliance. If i have read this or interpreted it wrong i would rather be put right than carry on thinking wrongly . thanks
 
here is what it says in the electricians guide to the building regs

Socket-outlets supplying appliances pushed under a work-surface, eg. dishwashers, tumble dryers and fridges, should be accessible when the appliance is pulled out.

Appliances built into kitchen furniture (integrated appliances) should be connected to a socket-outlet or fused connection unit that is readily accessible when the appliance is in place and in normal use or supplied from a socket-outlet or other connecting device controlled by a readily accessible double pole switch or switched fused connection unit

think its more a guide though
 
Jamie,the word "should"can become more persuasive than it merits,it aint so persuasive as "must"

Stanley Have you also read the section about permanently connected equipment ?

quote
The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket.
​
 
the customer wanted exactly that, the uncluttered look, i was just worried that there was no local way of isolating the supply in an emergency without running down to the cellar to isolate appliance. to my mind i thought the switches could have been placed in a base unit towards the front for ease of access.I would rather be over cautious with these things thanjust do what customer wants just because they paying the wages. but on other hand would rather be put right and be told than to go along the wrong path albeit for the right reasons,,,,, if that makes sense??
 
Thanks jamie, this is where i need and appreciate the help this forum gives.To me readily accessible is above worktp or at worst in cupboard , not down in dingy cellar , but get the idea. the cellar is still readily accessible . cheers
 
stanleyblade said:
the customer wanted exactly that, the uncluttered look, i was just worried that there was no local way of isolating the supply in an emergency without running down to the cellar to isolate appliance. to my mind i thought the switches could have been placed in a base unit towards the front for ease of access.I would rather be over cautious with these things thanjust do what customer wants just because they paying the wages. but on other hand would rather be put right and be told than to go along the wrong path albeit for the right reasons,,,,, if that makes sense??
Click to expand...

You have all the best intentions there mate keep at it, in this case there is no strict 'you must' but albeit, what the customer says is NOT always right and its good that you checked before becoming a yes man /applaud for you my good sir!
 
I've always put local isolation and will always stress to a customer the merits of doing so.

If they dont want to see them front edge of a cupboard is far far better than going down the steps to a cellar....where some one like my missus would likely leave the brush/ironing board/washing basket/etc/etc all ready for me to trip over as she was 'going to take it all down to the cellar later!'.

Fairplay to ya Stanley for sticking by what you think is best for safety.........almost earns yeself forgiveness for the 1 week course ;)
 
not as yet des, that will now be my light read material for bed time. the microwave was not meant to be wired to a plug , but hard wired into cooker out let plate, as manufacturer install guide stated, so the spark was changing the cable size as it was only in 2.5, and also the socket to a plate. and your right about should and must, took "should " as "must" thanx
 
The last time there was any reference to a cooker switch in the Regulations was in the 14th edition.

"A.29
Every stationary cooking appliance shall be controlled by a switchseparate from the appliance and within 6 feet of the appliance. Where twostationary cooking appliances are installed in one room, one switch may be usedto control the two appliances provided that neither appliance is more than 6feet from the switch."

For some reason, the OSGs keep refering to this, even though the requirement was removed some ten years before the first OSG was published.
 
Forget your BGB & OSG what does it say in the appliance manual/instructions! Because if some think was to go wrong thats the first place the inspectors will look. They nearly always say they need local isolation. Good on you for not been one of these fit it and walk way with there money types.
 
spinlondon said:
The last time there was any reference to a cooker switch in the Regulations was in the 14th edition.

"A.29
Every stationary cooking appliance shall be controlled by a switchseparate from the appliance and within 6 feet of the appliance. Where twostationary cooking appliances are installed in one room, one switch may be usedto control the two appliances provided that neither appliance is more than 6feet from the switch."

For some reason, the OSGs keep refering to this, even though the requirement was removed some ten years before the first OSG was published.
Click to expand...

I think it's due to the OSG being an amalgamation of BS7671 and the building regs, which refer to the 2 metre "recommendation".
 
REG 537.4.1.1 --- Means shall be provided for emergency switching of any part of an installation where it may be necessary to control the supply to remove an unexpected danger

Pretty sure a chip pan fire would be included in this description
 
REG 537.4.2.5 The means of operation shall be readily accessible at places where a danger might occur

Maybe within 2m of cooker rather than in basement
 
AndyL said:
REG 537.4.1.1 --- Means shall be provided for emergency switching of any part of an installation where it may be necessary to control the supply to remove an unexpected dangerPretty sure a chip pan fire would be included in this description
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure I would be going for a wet tea cloth or fire blanket !!! Not a switch!
 
Simlec said:
I'm pretty sure I would be going for a wet tea cloth or fire blanket !!! Not a switch!
Click to expand...
Pretty sure I'd be slapping the long haired Hitler for burning my chips!!! :lol:

This is the thing with the BGB, OSG etc, they're guides. Although they can be used for proving non-compliance it's down to how the individual interprets the rules. I'm with the majority on this one, isolation should be local and accessible.

Although I've been in the trade a short time and still learning the ropes I have noticed that a lot of sparkies employed by builders tend to lean towards their building mates attitude. Was contemplating not posting this last sentenve but, Meh, it's Friday...
 
Why is it that electric cookers seem to need emergency switching in case of chip pan fires, whereas gas cookers don't?
Esspecially considering that with gas, once the supply is isolated, the source of heat is removed immediately, whereas with electric cookers, it will take some time for the source of heat to cool down.
By the time the ring is cool enough, the house will have burnt down.
Then there's the advisabillity of placing the means of isolation so close to the source of danger.
If I was to install a means of isolation in case of chip pan fires, I'd place it by the entrance/exit to the kitchen.
 
Strima said:
This is the thing with the BGB, OSG etc, they're guides. Although they can be used for proving non-compliance it's down to how the individual interprets the rules. I'm with the majority on this one, isolation should be local and accessible.
Click to expand...

I agree entirely with what you say, I always fit local isolation as I feel this is good practice, the OP was asking if it broke any regs though, which technically it doesn't as far as BS7671 goes, unless it falls foul of any manufacturers instructions.

Best practice is something entirely different, and may be down to personal choices rather than absolute regulations.
 
spark 68 said:
I agree entirely with what you say, I always fit local isolation as I feel this is good practice, the OP was asking if it broke any regs though, which technically it doesn't as far as BS7671 goes, unless it falls foul of any manufacturers instructions.

Best practice is something entirely different, and may be down to personal choices rather than absolute regulations.
Click to expand...

Agree too, would always fit locally
Don't see much point in fitting near the CCU, why not just use MCB.

Anyone any thoughts on the reg numbers above, could they not be seen as a requirement for local cooker switch
 
Unless I've missed something, the only appliance that has got a 13amp fuse is the microwave, are you saying that the washing machine/fridge etc has only got a 16amp RCBO for protection at the CU? I'm pretty sure the manufacturer will want a 13amp fuse, either in a plug top or fcu.
 
spinlondon said:
Why is it that electric cookers seem to need emergency switching in case of chip pan fires, whereas gas cookers don't?
Esspecially considering that with gas, once the supply is isolated, the source of heat is removed immediately, whereas with electric cookers, it will take some time for the source of heat to cool down.
By the time the ring is cool enough, the house will have burnt down.
Then there's the advisabillity of placing the means of isolation so close to the source of danger.
If I was to install a means of isolation in case of chip pan fires, I'd place it by the entrance/exit to the kitchen.
Click to expand...

Also, in this type of emergency, probably 100% of people would go immediately to the cooker controls to remove the heat source because this is a very familiar action to them, whereas thinking about where the electric isolator switch is, during a panic situation, is not.
 
AndyL said:
Agree too, would always fit locally
Don't see much point in fitting near the CCU, why not just use MCB.

Anyone any thoughts on the reg numbers above, could they not be seen as a requirement for local cooker switch
Click to expand...

As a domestic cooker would not fall under the scope of BS EN 60204, therefore the regs you quote are for emergency switching and not applicable in this case

These normally fall under the umbrella of Standards , BS EN 50304:2009+A1:2010, BS EN 60350:2009
 
New posts

Reply to general rant....ish in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

S
New kitchen, multi switches
Hi all. So I'm designing my new kitchen and trying to plan where things will go. I currently have a 6 switch panel for the appliances (hob...
Replies
18
Views
1K
Markyd
Markyd
G
UK Should vending hot drinks machines with thermostatic water heaters be classed as fixed equipment?
I'm looking at a vending hot drinks machine 2.9kW that has a thermostatically controlled hot water tank permanently attached to a water supply...
Replies
2
Views
237
loz2754
loz2754
K
One House and 2 Consumer units needed by LL, need help with circuits
Hi I have a job where customer has two families one families lives upstairs and one family will live downstairs. As the property is going through...
Replies
12
Views
770
baldelectrician
baldelectrician
littlespark
Little problem here. RCD…
Doing a kitchen job for my daughter’s music teacher, who also happens to have been in my wife’s class at school. Nothing big… just a little...
    • Like
Replies
2
Views
298
littlespark
littlespark
Keith Lingard
UK Advice on Hoover Oven Installation
Hi, I'm installing a Hoover oven and would like a little help please. The oven code is HOC3158IN. The oven manual states "The power cable must...
Replies
9
Views
751
Keith Lingard
Keith Lingard

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

Tags

advice aus cable circuit course earth electric electrical electrician hello led light lighting lights looking new please question rcd socket supply switch testing training wiring
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock