Help needed to review quality of distributer box installation

[Octopus]

2nd part

View attachment 45276

The paragraph entitled "Current Weaknesses" makes an interesting read .........

And Scottish home owners suffer the same as in England - i.e. a distinct lack of awareness of the schemes, regs etc?

So in Scotland anybody can call themselves a spark without any qualifications? That's how I read it!

Sounds like lots of our European friends down here ........

 

[JK-Electrical]

The paragraph entitled "Current Weaknesses" makes an interesting read .........

And Scottish home owners suffer the same as in England - i.e. a distinct lack of awareness of the schemes, regs etc?

So in Scotland anybody can call themselves a spark without any qualifications? That's how I read it!

Sounds like lots of our European friends down here ........

You are reading correctly, Murdoch. In Scotland, anyone can represent themselves as an electrician and then go do sub-standard electrical installation work in people's homes. MyBuilder and Rated People are full of wetpants, kitchen-fitters, bathroom-fitters, builders and handymen who all suffer from the delusion that they are competent electricians.

 

[Octopus]

You are reading correctly, Murdoch. In Scotland, anyone can represent themselves as an electrician and then go do sub-standard electrical installation work in people's homes. MyBuilder and Rated People are full of wetpants, kitchen-fitters, bathroom-fitters, builders and handymen who all suffer from the delusion that they are competent electricians.

The last sentence of the Select Document in post #142 - was that written by the SNP?

As far as I'm aware, building regs in Scotland come under the responsibility of the Devolved Government ................ so surely they have control over this ....................... or is it the usual of if in doubt blame Westminster , so to deflect any eyes away from us?

 

[JK-Electrical]

The last sentence of the Select Document in post #142 - was that written by the SNP?

As far as I'm aware, building regs in Scotland come under the responsibility of the Devolved Government ................ so surely they have control over this ....................... or is it the usual of if in doubt blame Westminster , so to deflect any eyes away from us?

You are correct ..... the Scottish Government has responsibility for building regulations in Scotland, and as far as electrical installation work is concerned, the regulations are somewhat lax. For instance, a building warrant would be required if an additional socket was to be installed in a tenement building. But a warrant is not required for a consumer unit changeover. This is a somewhat bizarre arrangement to say the least. More bizarre still, in a tenement building, a building warrant is required for the installation of a mains-operated smoke alarm, but not for the installation of a shower. A building warrant is required for rewiring a flat located within a tenement building, but not for a house unless it consists of more than two storeys. You couldn't make this up.

The sentence that you're referring to is from a report produced almost two years ago by SELECT. Electrician As A Profession - The Case For Regulation. I've uploaded the document as a PDF file. What they're getting at here is since it was Westminster who introduced the Part P legislation that in turn has led to creation of Electrical Trainee 'domestic installer' courses, they are ultimately to blame for the downskilling of the trade, at least in the domestic sector anyway. Short course participants who 'qualify' as 'electricians' in England and Wales are then given grade cards which they can use in Scotland to purport themselves as electricians. I know of several such types who are based in Scotland, but who did a short-course in England so to acquire the necessary documentation that will allow them to pass themselves off as 'qualified'. I know for a fact that this practice is happening up here.

What the SELECT report does not mention, however, is that the Scottish Government are as equally culpable for the poor state of the electrical contracting industry in Scotland, for under the present system that THEY themselves designed and implemented, anyone can call themselves an 'electrician' and trade accordingly. And many do. I've been in the trade since 1976, and have noticed a sharp increase over the last decade or so in the number of rogue installations that I come across. Indeed, a few weeks ago, EVERY single job that I attended in the course of one working week had serious defects, all of which were caused by non-skilled personnel. This has got to stop. To my mind, the question is when someone is killed rather than if.

The UK and Scottish Governments must shoulder the lion's share of blame for the sorry state of our industry as they are the ones who are responsible for legislation. The NICEIC and the training centres are also to blame, for it is they who have been churning-out 'boil-in-the-bag' 'electricians' conveyor-belt style. Kerching, kerching, kerching.

 

[Octopus]

Hum ........... we have all sorts of people, UK and European doing sparking around here ................ Governments won't change this ......... so I can't see how Holyrood are going to change anything north of the Border

Obviously Select will keep raising this so as to keep themselves busy ...

 

[JK-Electrical]

Hum ........... we have all sorts of people, UK and European doing sparking around here ................ Governments won't change this ......... so I can't see how Holyrood are going to change anything north of the Border

Obviously Select will keep raising this so as to keep themselves busy ...

Holyrood has the power to act, but chooses not to. The party who controls the house seemingly has bigger fish to fry and more important issues to deal with other than dangerous electrical work being carried-out in people's homes by unskilled personnel.

Until such times as this mindset changes, the industry north of the border will continue to suffer. I know that SELECT have just about run out of patience with the Scottish Government regarding this issue and the gloves will be coming off if progress is not made and soon. Bring it on, I say.

 

[Deuce]

But a warrant is not required for a consumer unit changeover. This is a somewhat bizarre arrangement to say the least. More bizarre still, in a tenement building, a building warrant is required for the installation of a mains-operated smoke alarm, but not for the installation of a shower.

In England there are obviously also problems with enforcing the rules too... But it seems up in Scotland-land, it's actively back to front!!

Can't change a socket but can change a CU? The CU actually supplies and protects the circuit, it should be the main focus of regulation and control surely?

And I can't accept that people are not allowed to fit their own smoke alarm (which could save a life) but are allowed to fit their own electric shower (which could end a life).

I understand the reasons that government don't want to get overly involved in this can of worms. But how did it end up so back to front in the first place? At what point/how did someone get round to outlawing a bloke swapping out a faulty socket, without considering the folk that apparently feel a CU swap is a DIY job? And what is the logic in allowing someone to swap a high current wet environment shower but actively blocks a bloke that thinks "hmm... I'd feel happier if we had a smoke detector in the hallway leading to the kids bedrooms".

I'm not saying safety devices are best fitted by amateurs... But surely stop them working in the bathroom before worrying about anything else!?

 

[JK-Electrical]

In England there are obviously also problems with enforcing the rules too... But it seems up in Scotland-land, it's actively back to front!!

Can't change a socket but can change a CU? The CU actually supplies and protects the circuit, it should be the main focus of regulation and control surely?

And I can't accept that people are not allowed to fit their own smoke alarm (which could save a life) but are allowed to fit their own electric shower (which could end a life).

I understand the reasons that government don't want to get overly involved in this can of worms. But how did it end up so back to front in the first place? At what point/how did someone get round to outlawing a bloke swapping out a faulty socket, without considering the folk that apparently feel a CU swap is a DIY job? And what is the logic in allowing someone to swap a high current wet environment shower but actively blocks a bloke that thinks "hmm... I'd feel happier if we had a smoke detector in the hallway leading to the kids bedrooms".

I'm not saying safety devices are best fitted by amateurs... But surely stop them working in the bathroom before worrying about anything else!?

You're asking the same set of questions that a lot of puzzled Scottish electricians have been asking for years!

 

[Deuce]

You're asking the same set of questions that a lot of puzzled Scottish electricians have been asking for years!

Have you ever looked at the stats of Scottish vs English electrical fires/deaths/shocks etc? I wonder if there is a difference? If you ever wanted to play your part in affecting change, that would be a good place to start. Let's face it, your boys north of the border won't like to hear that you're statistically more likely to be fried than 'The English'.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to see the side by side stats that are the result of the differences in regulation.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Have you ever looked at the stats of Scottish vs English electrical fires/deaths/shocks etc? I wonder if there is a difference? If you ever wanted to play your part in affecting change, that would be a good place to start. Let's face it, your boys north of the border won't like to hear that you're statistically more likely to be fried than 'The English'.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to see the side by side stats that are the result of the differences in regulation.

According to Electrical Safety First, 54.4% of fires in England during 2015/16 were caused by electricity. No fatalities though. Meanwhile up here in Scotland, 75% of fires during 2016 were caused by electricity. This resulted in nine deaths.

So you are indeed much more likely to be barbecued by an electrical fire in Scotland than you are south of the border. This comes as no surprise at all to me given the alarming number of seriously-defective installations that I've come across. Indeed, my only surprise is that the number of deaths are relatively low. But it's still nine too many.

 

[Deuce]

According to Electrical Safety First, 54.4% of fires in England during 2015/16 were caused by electricity. No fatalities though. Meanwhile up here in Scotland, 75% of fires during 2016 were caused by electricity. This resulted in nine deaths.

So you are indeed much more likely to be barbecued by an electrical fire in Scotland than you are south of the border. This comes as no surprise at all to me given the alarming number of seriously-defective installations that I've come across. Indeed, my only surprise is that the number of deaths are relatively low. But it's still nine too many.

On the flip side, statistically it's fascinating that I would guess 100's of millions is spent in the name of electrical safety (one way or the other) yet even though over half the fires in England were down to electrical, no one died. I suspect that in Scotland the fire/death ratio is different because allowing anyone to do the work, provides a low cost but legal solution to those living in outdated cheap accommodation that is generally poor on fire safety - even before some fool comes and hooks up a dodgy CU.

If you want to really push this issue, I think the charge should be led with the stats. In one year 9 scots die, for the same cause the english go two years with zero deaths. Go back another year or two when there was a death in England - and you could have a statistic that you're 10x more likely to die in Scotland for the same cause. That's how the politicians defend their actions when they have a success... Throw it back at them!

Personally if 75% of fires in a single year are down to electrical, then it's basic common sense. You would probably get less awful statistics if you allowed unlicensed drivers on the road and then looked at the causes of accidents. The difference being that any driver will avoid the accident for their own preservation, but an idiot will create a danger in a customers home and not even realise why it is dangerous.

 

[JK-Electrical]

I'm quoting from an article written in 2016 by Phil Watts of Ascot College of Electrical Studies titled, House Fires Caused By Fuse-boards, The Plot Thickens:

"Figures obtained from London Fire Brigade show 253 recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition in the year 2013/2014. How does that compare with eight years earlier in 2005/2006 when the lower standards of Part P were first introduced? Well, see for yourself."

2005/2006 – 27
2006/2007 – 28
2007/2008 – 33
2008/2009 – 21
2009/2010 – 54
2010/2011 - 73
2011/2012 - 71
2012/2013 - 220
2013/2014 - 253

This is scary reading indeed as the statistics are just for London! I wonder what the statistics for all of the UK for the same period are.

 

[Deuce]

I'm quoting from an article written in 2016 by Phil Watts of Ascot College of Electrical Studies titled, House Fires Caused By Fuse-boards, The Plot Thickens:

"Figures obtained from London Fire Brigade show 253 recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition in the year 2013/2014. How does that compare with eight years earlier in 2005/2006 when the lower standards of Part P were first introduced? Well, see for yourself."

2005/2006 – 27
2006/2007 – 28
2007/2008 – 33
2008/2009 – 21
2009/2010 – 54
2010/2011 - 73
2011/2012 - 71
2012/2013 - 220
2013/2014 - 253

This is scary reading indeed as the statistics are just for London! I wonder what the statistics for all of the UK for the same period are.

S**t! That's damn near a ten fold increase!

And coupled with the fact that many of those CU swaps would have bought improved safety devices into the installation too.. the increase is fires becomes even more staggering.

Thing is though, I think whilst part P is not the ideal solution for here or in Scotland - it would at least improve the situation you have. At very least the spark (word used loosely..) would know to test and how to test - even though some still won't bother.

The crazy thing is that Scotland vs England... Part P is a bit of a joke here, and your government could take advantage of that knowledge to leapfrog us with a better system, one that would improve safety at home and also score an important political point by proving the new legislation out-performed that mandated by Westminster.

 

[Deuce]

I do also wonder if the huge jump between 11/12 and 12/13 was due to the fire brigade somehow more accurately determining cause. It's odd that in one year there should be such a huge jump.

 

[JK-Electrical]

I do also wonder if the huge jump between 11/12 and 12/13 was due to the fire brigade somehow more accurately determining cause. It's odd that in one year there should be such a huge jump.

I think there is a more plausible explanation. I quote from the SELECT report, Electrician As A Profession - The Case For Regulation (Appendix C, page 51):

"The arrival of the “Part P” through the new Building Regulations for the Domestic Sector in 2005 opened the flood gates for around 100,000 poorly qualified "Domestic Installers" whose ultra short training programmes (one to three weeks typically) leaves them a world away from the capability of fully qualified Electrician who have learned their trade over four to five years."

It is no coincidence that a rise in consumer unit fires corresponds with the arrival into our industry of 'Domestic Installers'.

 

[JK-Electrical]

The crazy thing is that Scotland vs England... Part P is a bit of a joke here, and your government could take advantage of that knowledge to leapfrog us with a better system, one that would improve safety at home and also score an important political point by proving the new legislation out-performed that mandated by Westminster.

Aye ..... one would think that the opportunity for we Scots to get one up on you Sassenachs and stick two fingers up at Westminster would be too good to for the Scottish Government to resist. Knickerless Surgeon is missing-out on a diamond opportunity to win bragging rights that the innovative Scots are at the forefront of electrical safety and that primitive England lags a long way behind us.

 

[Deuce]

I think there is a more plausible explanation. I quote from the SELECT report, Electrician As A Profession - The Case For Regulation (Appendix C, page 51):

"The arrival of the “Part P” through the new Building Regulations for the Domestic Sector in 2005 opened the flood gates for around 100,000 poorly qualified "Domestic Installers" whose ultra short training programmes (one to three weeks typically) leaves them a world away from the capability of fully qualified Electrician who have learned their trade over four to five years."

It is no coincidence that a rise in consumer unit fires corresponds with the arrival into our industry of 'Domestic Installers'.

That doesn't explain the big leap from 11/12 to 12/13 in the stats though. Unless the work done after the change took a good few years to fail. A slow burn you could say.. leading to probably a fast burn.

That doesn't sound right though. There must have been another factor around that time that had an influence.

Not that it matters. Part P failed and worse still customers know of the term and accept it as some sort of guarantee of quality! I think public knowledge is partially to blame here. People naturally want to pay the least amount of money for the work done and they don't know enough to make an informed choice. All they know is they have heard of part P and if the spark has it, they sound like a good bet.

The core problem is that lawmakers want regulation and accreditation by default, but lose interest when it comes to policing it and making sure it is effective. We all know the answer is a period of job inspection after training but no one wants to spend the money or deal with logistics of making that happen.

 

[Deuce]

I think there is a more plausible explanation. I quote from the SELECT report, Electrician As A Profession - The Case For Regulation (Appendix C, page 51):

"The arrival of the “Part P” through the new Building Regulations for the Domestic Sector in 2005 opened the flood gates for around 100,000 poorly qualified "Domestic Installers" whose ultra short training programmes (one to three weeks typically) leaves them a world away from the capability of fully qualified Electrician who have learned their trade over four to five years."

It is no coincidence that a rise in consumer unit fires corresponds with the arrival into our industry of 'Domestic Installers'.

That doesn't explain the big leap from 11/12 to 12/13 in the stats though. Unless the work done after the change took a good few years to fail. A slow burn you could say.. leading to probably a fast burn.

That doesn't sound right though. There must have been another factor around that time that had an influence.

Not that it matters. Part P failed and worse still customers know of the term and accept it as some sort of guarantee of quality! I think public knowledge is partially to blame here. People naturally want to pay the least amount of money for the work done and they don't know enough to make an informed choice. All they know is they have heard of part P and if the spark has it, they sound like a good bet.

The core problem is that lawmakers want regulation and accreditation by default, but lose interest when it comes to policing it and making sure it is effective. We all know the answer is a period of job inspection after training but no one wants to spend the money or deal with logistics of making that happen.

 

[Deuce]

Aye ..... one would think that the opportunity for we Scots to get one up on you Sassenachs and stick two fingers up at Westminster would be too good to for the Scottish Government to resist. Knickerless Surgeon is missing-out on a diamond opportunity to win bragging rights that the innovative Scots are at the forefront of electrical safety and that primitive England lags a long way behind us.

I will admit you're an innovative race!! Although it's easy to make time for sitting indoors innovating when it's always pi**ing it down outside

 

[JK-Electrical]

I will admit you're an innovative race!! Although it's easy to make time for sitting indoors innovating when it's always pi**ing it down outside

Aye .... our innovation in pitch invasion is second to none.

​

 

[Toneyz]

Been in the pub you obviously had known something that didn't or read.

Why the dumb?

 

[richy3333]

My apprentice is in his first of the 3 year college scheme to get qualified. On Friday we had to encounter a electrical trainee whom refers to himself as a 'fully qualified domestic electrician'. The chaps working on a 3ph 200A system. Go figure!

 

[Toneyz]

electrical trainee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JK-Electrical]

My apprentice is in his first of the 3 year college scheme to get qualified. On Friday we had to encounter a electrical trainee whom refers to himself as a 'fully qualified domestic electrician'. The chaps working on a 3ph 200A system. Go figure!

Just when you think it couldn't get any worse. Unbelievable.

 

[Deuce]

My apprentice is in his first of the 3 year college scheme to get qualified. On Friday we had to encounter a electrical trainee whom refers to himself as a 'fully qualified domestic electrician'. The chaps working on a 3ph 200A system. Go figure!

1 week per phase, don't see the problem. If you do a 4 week course you have time to learn what the green and yellow stripey one is for too

 

[Toneyz]

1 week per phase, don't see the problem. If you do a 4 week course you have time to learn what the green and yellow stripey one is for too

Is it supposed to do something? I've been cutting it off and taking down scrap yard for years get a bit more for the one that goes between the meter and consumer unit.

 

[Deuce]

Is it supposed to do something? I've been cutting it off and taking down scrap yard for years get a bit more for the one that goes between the meter and consumer unit.

Smart man. Some silly buggers keep it but I think the blue one does the same thing, so what's the point?

 

[MFS Electrical]

You are reading correctly, Murdoch. In Scotland, anyone can represent themselves as an electrician and then go do sub-standard electrical installation work in people's homes. MyBuilder and Rated People are full of wetpants, kitchen-fitters, bathroom-fitters, builders and handymen who all suffer from the delusion that they are competent electricians.

When even the competency in their own trade is severely lacking.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Aye ..... one would think that the opportunity for we Scots to get one up on you Sassenachs and stick two fingers up at Westminster would be too good to for the Scottish Government to resist. Knickerless Surgeon is missing-out on a diamond opportunity to win bragging rights that the innovative Scots are at the forefront of electrical safety and that primitive England lags a long way behind us.

I’m not going to lie I had to google what the h**l a Sassenach was sounds like a sly underhanded insult tbf

 

[MFS Electrical]

My apprentice is in his first of the 3 year college scheme to get qualified. On Friday we had to encounter a electrical trainee whom refers to himself as a 'fully qualified domestic electrician'. The chaps working on a 3ph 200A system. Go figure!

I really wish there was an oh dear button

 

[Deuce]

I’m not going to lie I had to google what the h**l a Sassenach was

On my first trip to Scotland I felt pretty confident we spoke the same language and had the same currency etc.. until I hit the tolls on the forth road bridge and the lady in the booth had an accent so thick she may as well have been speaking in hedgehog talk for I could dechipher. I held out a trembling handful of dirty English money as I had no idea what she had asked for. Then got to site, visited the loo and found grafitti inside from the Scottish contractors telling the English they weren't welcome, and on each second line a reply from the English explaining why they didn't want to be there. The exchange of insults only finished after a day or two as the door ran out of space!! I swear some guys must have been on the floor of that cubicle to get the last come back in

But on site, everyone was supportive and helpful. I like a bit of nieghbourly competition

 

[JK-Electrical]

I’m not going to lie I had to google what the h**l a Sassenach was sounds like a sly underhanded insult tbf

Sassenach is a term for an English person. But as I'm politically-incorrect and posting on a forum where English bed-wetting types refer to we Scots as "Jocks" and "sweatys", then I it's fair game for sweaty Jocks to refer to English bed-wetting types as Sassenachs.

I draw the line at waving my private parts at their aunties though.

​

 

[JK-Electrical]

I really wish there was an oh dear button

Be careful what you wish for laddie.

 

[johnduffell]

Is it supposed to do something? I've been cutting it off and taking down scrap yard for years get a bit more for the one that goes between the meter and consumer unit.

That's the smart money, if someone's connected the earth to the meter it probably is redundant so the drinks are on you!

 

[MG201]

My friend is doing a university dissertation on the subject of electrical safety , will include stuff like Will AFDDs help reduce fires / would or should they be retrofitted / should domestic properties need a EICR every 5 or 10 years same as rented properties ( in Scotland any rented property needs landlord certs max 5 years ) will also be about appliance fires eg chargers from China that cost £1.99 , would members of forum be willing to fill out a questionnaire?

 

[JK-Electrical]

My friend is doing a university dissertation on the subject of electrical safety , will include stuff like Will AFDDs help reduce fires / would or should they be retrofitted / should domestic properties need a EICR every 5 or 10 years same as rented properties ( in Scotland any rented property needs landlord certs max 5 years ) will also be about appliance fires eg chargers from China that cost £1.99 , would members of forum be willing to fill out a questionnaire?

I would oblige.

 

[MFS Electrical]

My friend is doing a university dissertation on the subject of electrical safety , will include stuff like Will AFDDs help reduce fires / would or should they be retrofitted / should domestic properties need a EICR every 5 or 10 years same as rented properties ( in Scotland any rented property needs landlord certs max 5 years ) will also be about appliance fires eg chargers from China that cost £1.99 , would members of forum be willing to fill out a questionnaire?

I would

 

[MG201]

He has already contacted nic select stroma rut and nap it all have said they will Anwser questionnaire and complete an interview , might be looking to do a few interviews after survey results so thanks everyone who is up for this , be interesting to see if there is a north /south decide in survey results

 

[Octopus]

I really wish there was an oh dear button

I use the "optimistic" button!

 

[oracle]

Where do you come up with

Thats pretty funny considering i never done the electrical work it was plumbing work and where do you come up with ripping people off ?Also bringing what trade down the best thing for you to do is crawl back under that rock from which you came as you obviously never read what i wrote properly

I can't find anything that you have written properly, since your spelling, grammar, punctuation and diction all need a great deal of improvement.

 

[MG201]

I can't find anything that you have written properly, since your spelling, grammar, punctuation and diction all need a great deal of improvement.

Where’s this going chief ??

 

[oracle]

Where’s this going chief ??

I became annoyed with the wetpants ranting on defending the poor work described. He said we never read what he wrote properly so I did.

 

[MG201]

Klkl I thought he was saying he done the plumbing on that job eg installed shower etc ( no doughy with 6mil lol and no cert for it and that u were slaying him for it

 

[DPG]

Is this forum being translated from another language or something? ??

 

[oracle]

Is this forum being translated from another language or something? ??

Well, I am trying to encourage proper English as she is spoke

 

[JK-Electrical]

Well, I am trying to encourage proper English as she is spoke

Jist tae annoy ye ahm gonnae tawk in mah ain nateuv glesga langwitch tae cinfuse ye sew ye cannae undurstaun a wurd uv whit ahm sane hear.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Jist tae annoy ye ahm gonnae tawk in mah ain nateuv glesga langwitch tae cinfuse ye sew ye cannae undurstaun a wurd uv whit ahm sane hear.

Why aye man, don't post when thee's had a few heavies, we'll stand no chance.

 

[oracle]

Jist tae annoy ye ahm gonnae tawk in mah ain nateuv glesga langwitch tae cinfuse ye sew ye cannae undurstaun a wurd uv whit ahm sane hear.

Ek kan elka woord verstaan so moenie my mik nie!

Mina haai konder wena! Manjie, wena lo bongol!

 

[Toneyz]

Is this a UK forum as I did not understand any of the last few posts

 

[oracle]

Is this a UK forum as I did not understand any of the last few posts

I corrected the English used in a rant further back and it all went downhill, after that