Help needed

[Drewwypoo]

Hey, first time poster ill try to explain the situation.

We had a burst pipe in january and the kitchen ceiling caved in and flooded the kitchen extension and dining room, we got a electrician and plumber out straight away, the electrician wired up a new RCD and made the wires safe

Insurance are paying out and the builders came in 3 months ago to remove the old kitchen and got their own electrician in to take the lights down and apparantly charged for making the sockets safe....even though they were already made safe so we in effect were paying twice, not that bothered though as insurance are covering it.

Plasterers came out to put up new ceiling and plaster kitchen walls, then the drying company came in to put in dryers. We are currently living elsewhere and the drying company said that leaving them on would be fine, but just in case we went back mid week to check on them and noticed that all the sockets downstairs were off (bar 3 in the kitchen and 1 in the little bedroom.) But the RCD didnt trip.

We rang drying company and they said they don't have their own electrician and to try the builder, the builders electrician was on holiday, insurance said to get someone out ourselves which we did and he says that all sockets are not on a ring so finding thr fault would be near impossible, and also the RCD isnt installed correctly. £750 for 3 ring mains we were quoted.

Insurance aren't paying out but we are stumped to get £750 together and building work can't finish til we do and also need to remove laminate flooring and carpets, well the laminate has no chance of going back down so thats more ontop (its already been 9 months since the flood and havnt got it dried out properly.)

Is anyone to blame? 2 electricians came out, one did the rcd and did it wrong, one inspected it and ticked off saying its fine, then drying company blew it with their equipment, at not one point did anyone say we had a problem with electrics.

The drying company claim they just plug it in and expect the wiring to be fine, even though he plugged the heater into a socket that was hanging from the wall.

Just want to know peoples opinions on what to do next, surely we shouldnt be expected to pay for new wiring now after already having two electricians out saying the electrics were safe so they must be partly to blame and the drying company for just plugging the heater into a plug socket hanging off the wall.


Any input would be appreciated

Thanks,
Drew

 

[geordie]

Have you got any paperwork from the other two electricains. to say what work was done and also test results. Also were abouts are you based maybe one of the guys off here could have a look at it for you for

 

[Drewwypoo]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply.

Yes we have the paperwork, first electrician installed 1x new mains board, find fault on sockets (cost per hour) £250 for Mains board, £60 to find faults, total £310inc vat

Builders electrician - Electrical works - remove two kitchen lights - make safe - isolated supply to gas cooker - socket under sink -extractor socket, total £90inc Vat

The property is in the Shiney Row area of Sunderland.

Thanks

 

[stansmith]

are you saying that yo have a new distribution board with an rcd main switch but the breaker(mcb) for the downstairs sockets tripped? when the dryers were plugged in

 

[geordie]

Do you no what the rating was of the breaker which tripped was. Could be the the circuit was overloaded. Depending on the rating of the dryers

 

[manda]

Socket hanging off the wall after apparently twice being "made safe"? Lovely

 

[Drewwypoo]

No nothing tripped,
Its a brand new consumer unit with RCD, but (i think i have this right) because the house isn't on a circuit so its not going back to the unit for it to trip, its just on a line, so its just from one socket to the next and not back to the unit, and some sockets only have one wire going in. But we've had 2 electricians out and neither told us this, so now the dryers have been put in a wire has probably burnt out somewhere because it hasn't had chance to trip.


Drew

 

[Drewwypoo]

haha yes this is our point, weve paid (well insurance have paid) for one electrician to put in a consumer unit which tbf is pointless i think if its not on a circuit as it won't trip and secondly both apparantly made safe yet the socket in the bedroom is hanging off and the socket in the dining room is well coming off the wall and knackered, and all bar 2 sockets in kitchen are just wires hanging out with insulating tape over them

And also in reply to geordie, no i havnt a clue what the rating of the breaker was

 

[polo1]

Really sorry to hear of the problems you have experienced with the electrics! My suggestion would be to contact the electrician who installed the new consumer unit. He should have identified and tested all the circuits before energising the new board (sounds like you have the test sheet...it should be an Electrical Installation Certificate). I'm not sure if you engaged this electrician or your insurers did, but who is paying him is the best place to start. You should ask him to go over the EIC with you and explain exactly what wiring you have for the sockets.

I think you are saying that some sockets are not now working (after the driers were installed) but that neither the RCD or MCB have tripped - this should be relatively easy issue for the spark to identify and solve. If the circuit was overloaded, ten the MCB should have tripped.

You are obviously going to have to trust the spark to be honest and up front with you, and for him not to use this as an opportunity to screw more cash out of you (I'd defo be speaking to your insurance co about their involvement and liability for costs).

And, sorry, I'm to far away to be able to assist!

Good luck!
(Sorry, looks like my post crossed with your most recent one)

 

[trev]

The rating of the breaker should be written on it.
If I'm reading this correctly you seem to think that the problem stems from the sockets not being on a ring, while this may be a factor in this there are circumstances where it's acceptable to put them on a radial circuit as long as the correct cable and breakers are installed and the circuit being correctly wired and connected, if there was a problem it should have reared it's ugly head at the testing stage.
If the original electrician has left you with an installation certificate it should have some identification of which governing body he is with. If he is reluctant to come out and explain the cert to you I'd contact the governing body who will look into it in accordance with their complaints resolution procedure but hopefully it won't get that far for you and the electrician/s will be willing to explain what is what to you.
Keep us informed please as it would be good to see how this one pans out.
Good luck with the repairs.

 

[johnboy6083]

firstly, how did you know that sockets werent working? did you use the heaters to testthem? if you did, then maybe they were thermostatically conrrolled, and the stat had turned them off. I dont understand the point about sokets not working because they are not on a ring.
a radial is an approved method of installing sockets, and is recognised as such in the wiring regulations (bs7671). A ring is also a recognised method, and again within BS7671. there are DIY variations of a ring, which are dangerous and not to be used, but they will not stop the sockets from working. the only thing that will stop them working is if the supply to them is interuppted. This may be either the MCB (breaker in laymans terms), or the RCD (which i assume was installed to cover the whole installation as protection from electric shock). The only other thiong i can think of is loose connectiones behind sockets, which the spark should of noticed during testing, as ifhes worth his salt, the first thing would to be remove the faceplates and clean them, to stop tracking across dirt that may have been depositedby the water.

 

[Drewwypoo]

Hey yeah im currently not living there considering theres no gas, no electrics and no kitchen, its about 1 1/2 hour bus ride there as i dont have transport atm otherwise id check the breaker rating.

Yeah i was wondering between radial and ring, im not brilliant by any means at electrics but whether the problem is due to not having a ring or any other cause ideally it should have tripped something, but it didnt. Also it was mainly the last electrician who gave me a quote who said this reason that it needs to be on a ring and gave me a quote of £750 for installing 3 new rings and thats what's stumped me a bit, maybe it does need 3 new rings but i don't want to be ripped off if any cheaper options are available.

We've been waiting 9 months to get the new kitchen done, next door (who claimed off our insurance) had driers in in march we got them in 2 weeks ago, seems a little backward considering ours obviously was considerably worse since they claimed it was our flood that caused their damp. And in 9 months all we've got done is a new ceiling in kitchen and 2 walls re-plastered. And now after 9 months the builders are getting antsy because we are apparantly now holding them up because of the electrics....i'd like to say its nice to see the shoe's on the other foot but it isn't we just want this sorted as soon as possible because we're starting to lose the will to live lol

Thanks everyone for their support

 

[vernam616]

Where are you based? Someone from here I'm sure would help you out and give you a honest realistic idea of what needs doing

 

[trev]

I'm in newcastle if I'm needed for an opinion

 

[Drewwypoo]

In reply to johnboy, we had another (3rd) electrician out to check it and said that the sockets aren't live thats who quoted us £750 to put 3 new rings in, and thats what the insurance company have decided they arent gonna pay for, they payed for the first electrician who put in the new consumer unit, then their appointed builders automatically sent out another to check everything before building work commenced.

I mean it may need new rings installed, but i'd rather understandably play it safe and get a second quote. Especially since i just wallpapered and painted and matched the new laminate floor thats to be layed in dining and kitchen to the living room laminate just to pull it up to install new rings, and also the ceiling in kitchen was down for 8 months they just put a new one up and the last electrician said he may need to undo a bit of that work to install the new wires, also if a radial would suffice it may not require all this work.

Trev1, cheers ill definatly keep that in mind i currently have geordie (first reply) coming out saturday to have a look, the properties in shiney row area of sunderland

Cheers

 

[trev]

I'm sure Geordie will give the same advice as me mate and he'll probably be posting here to keep us cable junkies up to date. Best of luck, I hope there's good stuff coming your way.

 

[ezzzekiel]

Im localish too seaham if you get stuck can take a look

 

[Drewwypoo]

Just thought id update,

Last week we rang the contract manager who is "supposed" to be organizing all the work asking to send us a copy of the invoice from the electrician he sent out to my other address, well he sent it to the property getting the work, but at the time i didn't know it had been posted there and rang back asking for a copy as we hadnt received it, well the receptionist sent a different copy of just the letter attached to the invoice,

So the contract manager just sent the invoice on its own from the electrician to other address, the receptionist has buggered him over as the letter she sent out which was the covering letter for invoice(which the builder chose not to send a copy of) which i received today and this says;

Dear Rob,

R.e (my address) Report

After carrying out electrical work to kitchen, only remove lights made safe, isolated the supply to gas cooker, noted the extractor needed replacing, all of which would have no effect on the sockets not working in the dining room, but would be happy to return to test if instructed.

The above works and report was carried out on the 18th July 2011.

Kind Regards....


So the building manager knew fine well that the sockets in dining room werent working and was supposed to get the electrician back out to test if needed.

Well the contract manager sent in the drying company knowing full well that the sockets had a fault (note earlier the dining room socket was hanging off wall) and the drying company put the heater into that socket, the fan into another double socket and the dehumidifier into the same double socket.

And all the way along the contract manager has said that the electrics had been checked with no faults. So he's covering his back and lying knowing he should have got them fixed before bringing in the dryers and is happy enough to let us foot the bill for his mistake.

He can't even claim that the letter was just filed away in the office and he never knew about it, because the letter from the electrician was addressed to him.

I don't think he'll be happy with his receptionist when he realises she sent out the letter pretty much stating that he is at fault.

But now the insurance company arent paying out, we need to claim from the builders themselves for the work and all this seems like alot of effort and annoyance that could easily have been avoided if the contract manager actually did his job properly

 

[Knobhead]

Unfortunately you need to find this

View attachment 8059

Ref http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm

 

[trev]

Geordie, forgive my nosiness but how did this one pan out when you went to give the homeowner some advice?