Interesting talk with DNO engineer

[Gavin John Hyde]

Had the DNO out to check cut out, make a sheathed earth available today and pull fuse whilst I fit isolator.
Got talking about pulling fuses and the seal fairy, he said Western Power normally just give you a dont be naughty talk and doesn't get why they dont just allow registered electricians to pull them on domestic properties. recognised sometimes the cut out is seized up or its an older ceramic one, in which case call them.
he said that recently they have been sent to properties where the electrician has pulled fuse, smart meter detects loss of power and it flags as a supply fault, so they get a call and should power stay off for a certain period then they send an engineer out to check. wasnt sure if this is an automated computer process or a human initiated process.
He said he arrived at a property to find electrician had pulled fuse and was doing some work. no big deal he said, just told him to go careful and that really he shouldn't etc...
So it seems at least one electrical supplier with smart meters is calling loss of power/ fuse pulling into the DNO to inspect. He didn't know how long this time period is for the power being interrupted before they investigate but it clearly is happening. no doubt in many cases the electrician is just taking fuse out rather than fitting isolator and getting fuse back in. suspect if you fitted isolator and got back on line then nothing would happen.
He went on to say they dont like doing it as they are too busy but once called in from the smart meter people as a fault they have to send somebody out...
Last smart meter property I had to pull a fuse in Chippenham the meter made loads of funny noises... didnt stop until fuse was back in.
Anybody else got any knowledge of the smart meter folk calling in the fuse being removed?

 

[littlespark]

Last smart meter property I had to pull a fuse....

Admit to nothing!

The first rule of pulling fuses is... YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT PULLING FUSES!

 

[tony clark]

ive not heard of this before but i think they have a sim card in them check out john ward videos on you tube

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Admit to nothing!

The first rule of pulling fuses is... YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT PULLING FUSES!

Haha it was in SSE's patch in Wiltshire they allow you to pull them there. not so when in the land of Western Power Distribution...
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ive not heard of this before but i think they have a sim card in them check out john ward videos on you tube

best video is the one by bigclive, he takes one apart showing all the tamper sensors and bits inside, very informative.

 

[Andy78]

The internet has had quite a few "smart meter reported me pulling the fuse" stories lately on other sparky platforms. Some have even reported fines being dished out on the spot, even though the DNO would have no authority to do so. All the stories seem to involve WPD but nearly all the stories have happened to someone's "mate" so not a lot of credible evidence out there. Could even be WPD fuelling the rumour mill.

I wouldn't pull a smart meter apart, but then I wouldn't open any meter. There is never a reason to. I have heard of other contractors in my area pulling the fuse on many smart meters in my area to facilitate their work though, and not one report of contact to any customer from the DNO.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

The internet has had quite a few "smart meter reported me pulling the fuse" stories lately on other sparky platforms. Some have even reported fines being dished out on the spot, even though the DNO would have no authority to do so. All the stories seem to involve WPD but nearly all the stories have happened to someone's "mate" so not a lot of credible evidence out there. Could even be WPD fuelling the rumour mill.

I wouldn't pull a smart meter apart, but then I wouldn't open any meter. There is never a reason to. I have heard of other contractors in my area pulling the fuse on many smart meters in my area to facilitate their work though, and not one report of contact to any customer from the DNO.

I take some of it with pinch of salt. my aunts partner is a depot manager for WPD so have had it confirmed that they can and do respond to reports. not aware of 'fines' being issued. only a court could do that. it may be the property of the dno but if you can show a need and work safely then i can not see anybody issuing a fine.

 

[Andy78]

I take some of it with pinch of salt. my aunts partner is a depot manager for WPD so have had it confirmed that they can and do respond to reports. not aware of 'fines' being issued. only a court could do that. it may be the property of the dno but if you can show a need and work safely then i can not see anybody issuing a fine.

Exactly. Only a court could issue a fine which makes me wonder where these rumours come from. Just the usual wholesale counter garbage talk or WPD trying to spook people. Have they recently put up their rates for fuse pulling attendances ? ?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Exactly. Only a court could issue a fine which makes me wonder where these rumours come from. Just the usual wholesale counter garbage talk or WPD trying to spook people. Have they recently put up their rates for fuse pulling attendances ? ?

67 plus vat.... also got them to make a new tns earth available as old one was awol! So not too bad considering. Much preferable to putting a rod in!

 

[Risteard]

With the ESB it's a big no no to interfere with any of their seals and they will fine you a huge amount of money for it. In fact no-one would ever contemplate doing it.

That said they fit meters with a contractors isolator (and contractors seal) on them, otherwise a separate isolator with a contractors side.

 

[Simon47]

To many people, a service charge bill for "attending to loss of supply alarm from smart meter due to electrician pulling the service fuse" would look like and probably be described as "a fine".

 

[multimick]

well said it before so will say it again,got called to a job in liverpool the smart meter had been bypassed for several weeks while building work was being done , this smart meter was a bit dumb

 

[ipf]

67 plus vat.... also got them to make a new tns earth available as old one was awol!

Scaremonger...…..nobody will be trusting them tns earths.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Scaremonger...…..nobody will be trusting them tns earths.

Haha.. interesting to watch actually. They carry little kits.. a sort of springy copper band that wraps around incoming lead. Sand it back a bit for good connection. Apply the band and then cover with black tape. Sheath is covered in yellow green sleeving and has little metal terminal block on end for a 16mm earth. They are meant to check the tns if not converted to pme earths at each call out now as part of rolling programme of work.

 

[ipf]

Haha.. interesting to watch actually. They carry little kits.. a sort of springy copper band that wraps around incoming lead. Sand it back a bit for good connection. Apply the band and then cover with black tape. Sheath is covered in yellow green sleeving and has little metal terminal block on end for a 16mm earth. They are meant to check the tns if not converted to pme earths at each call out now as part of rolling programme of work.

They could be the Hepworth/Sicame ones.

 

[DPG]

Constant pressure springs - is that the term?

 

[davesparks]

With the ESB it's a big no no to interfere with any of their seals and they will fine you a huge amount of money for it. In fact no-one would ever contemplate doing it.

That said they fit meters with a contractors isolator (and contractors seal) on them, otherwise a separate isolator with a contractors side.

It sounds like you've got things a lot better sorted out in Ireland, from your various posts your rules appear to be clearer and stricter on quite a few things.

SSE used to fit self connect meters with the integral isolator but Im not sure if they still do

 

[Deleted member 105166]

This is just scaremongering - even the smartest "smart meter" won't detect the difference between a seal fairy and a momentary network outage, which happen regularly, sometimes across all phases and at other times just one.

 

[davesparks]

This is just scaremongering - even the smartest "smart meter" won't detect the difference between a seal fairy and a momentary network outage, which happen regularly, sometimes across all phases and at other times just one.

One meter on its own won't, but with multiple smart meters on one street it will be very easy to establish what is a network outage and what isn't.

 

[Midwest]

Exactly what offence or civil enforcement acts will you be committing, for these companies to issue ‘fines’?

 

[snowhead]

One meter on its own won't, but with multiple smart meters on one street it will be very easy to establish what is a network outage and what isn't.

Agreee with that,
But that assumes the supplier has more than 1 meter on the street or in the area.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

that assumes the supplier has more than 1 meter on the street or in the area.

Would have been easier in the good old days when everyone bought their leccy from the same supplier.
The DNO would ideally need accurate and timely information from a whole host of energy suppliers and unless they were paying the energy suppliers for this, what's in it for the energy company?

 

[Zerax]

Agreee with that,
But that assumes the supplier has more than 1 meter on the street or in the area.

I suspect it's done with "exception reporting". So every day/week/month there's a standard set of reports run from the smart meter data. Anything that is not 'normal' should show up. Like, say, a list of meters with a power failure within the same part postcode where the number is = 1; Or... any meters showing a usage drop of >50%

It's up to them if they investigate these or not...

 

[davesparks]

s, what's in it for the energy company?

They get possible theft of electricity investigated by the DNO for them for free,
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Agreee with that,
But that assumes the supplier has more than 1 meter on the street or in the area.

Not necessarily, if the DNO is getting the power outage report from all smart meters automatically then it won't matter who the energy supplier is.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

They get possible theft of electricity investigated by the DNO for them for free,

Good point Dave, I like your thinking.

 

[Taylortwocities]

SSE used to fit self connect meters with the integral isolator but Im not sure if they still do

These days new meter = smart meter. The original spec for SMs included an integral isolator, but of course it was ditched as a cost saving matter.
Meters are a matter for the supplier, not the DNO. and SSE aren't in retail any more!

SSE sale of retail business to Ovo creates new UK energy giant

The transfer of 3.5 million SSE customers will make Ovo the UK's second largest energy firm.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Shoei]

Exactly what offence or civil enforcement acts will you be committing, for these companies to issue ‘fines’?

It's probably covered by the National Terms of Connection (pdf) This is the contractual basis for most UK supplies and in section 10 it explains that you can't tinker with the supplier's kit, and you pay expenses for putting it right if you do. 'Expenses' for a DNO might look like a fine but as you imply, they have no authority to issue fines, although they can disconnect the supply if reasonable (in their opinion) costs aren't paid.

 

[Midwest]

As far as I’m aware, there’s just the offence of abstraction of electricity under the Theft Act. But pulling fuses or cutting seals, would not complete that offence.

 

[Shoei]

As far as I’m aware, there’s just the offence of abstraction of electricity under the Theft Act. But pulling fuses or cutting seals, would not complete that offence.

That's true in criminal law but the DNO has remedies and obligations under the 'Terms of Connection' contract. Acceptance of the contract is a condition of supply so if a seal is cut (say) the end user is obliged to pay the DNO's expenses to put it right.

 

[Carl S]

Forty years ago all I got from a NWEB engineer was “you don’t believe in seals then?” They were there for a major fault on their system so my little transgression was overlooked.

A few years later I phoned them about dual fuel heating and got talking to the same guy. Supply up rated for free and a wads of information and help.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

They could be the Hepworth/Sicame ones.

Yep, there again today. Is a hepworth kit to make a new tns earth from lead incoming sheath.

 

[Simon47]

Exactly what offence or civil enforcement acts will you be committing, for these companies to issue ‘fines’?

To start with, breach of supply contract - the "thou shalt not interfere with the supplier's or DNO's equipment" clause.
Then there's presymably a breach of ESQCR regs.
And breach of Electricity at Work regs.

 

[Midwest]

To start with, breach of supply contract - the "thou shalt not interfere with the supplier's or DNO's equipment" clause.
Then there's presymably a breach of ESQCR regs.
And breach of Electricity at Work regs.

The first one, is just a breach of a business contract. They may decline to offer you their products. They can’t fine you, and (as far as I’m aware), you do not commit a criminal offence at this stage, by interfering with their equipment.

Not about the later; one could argue that you would also be breaching these acts, by not making safe.

 

[Simon47]

As previously said, they can charge for "regularising" any interference with their equipment. And for most users, such a bill would look very much like a "fine".
Besides, Midwest asked what civil or criminal offences might be committed. The breach of contract would be a civil tort - and most people don't know the difference between a tort and an offence.

 

[DPG]

Hands up you're Googling the word 'tort'

There's an Irish joke in their somewhere.

 

[Andy78]

Hands up you're Googling the word 'tort'

 

[Midwest]

Hands up you're Googling the word 'tort'

There's an Irish joke in their somewhere.

I had to. I tort I saw a ----- cat

 

[Chivers]

I work as a Maintenance Electrician on Highways (not street lighting). I won't go into great detail but we have cabinets with DNO fuses and a meter then normally a two pole isolator. I've been doing this role for almost two years, We were transferred / Tuped across to another firm who tendered for the contract. One of the guys who has far more Network testing experience than me (though doesn't have 2391), was insisting a number of months ago that we needed to pull the DNO fuse (cutting seals) to get a true ZE and determine the Fuse rating. Up until then I'd been Testing ZE at the closest point to the meter with Earth removed to test towards the supply and noting the Fuse rating of the carrier (most are sealed anyway), generally the Earth is 16mm or 25mm and is two feet long so of negligible resistance. He still keeps insisting we remove fuses despite being told by hierarchy we should Not do this.

Who's right in this instance? We do have G39 BTW

 

[ipf]

Don't know what this thread is doing in 'Electrical Engineering Chat' ???

 

[static zap]

Hands up you're Googling the word 'tort'

There's an Irish joke in their somewhere.

Is that to do with the merry dance it will lead you.
(without a legal reference --Spoon will be along soon)

 

[GeorgeCooke]

It sounds like you've got things a lot better sorted out in Ireland,

But he actually lives in the UK. Place called Londonderry near the Irish border.

 

[Cbuk2k2]

Constant pressure springs - is that the term?

I’d say constant force spring

 

[DPG]

I’d say constant force spring

Close enough then.

 

[Midwest]

I work as a Maintenance Electrician on Highways (not street lighting). I won't go into great detail but we have cabinets with DNO fuses and a meter then normally a two pole isolator. I've been doing this role for almost two years, We were transferred / Tuped across to another firm who tendered for the contract. One of the guys who has far more Network testing experience than me (though doesn't have 2391), was insisting a number of months ago that we needed to pull the DNO fuse (cutting seals) to get a true ZE and determine the Fuse rating. Up until then I'd been Testing ZE at the closest point to the meter with Earth removed to test towards the supply and noting the Fuse rating of the carrier (most are sealed anyway), generally the Earth is 16mm or 25mm and is two feet long so of negligible resistance. He still keeps insisting we remove fuses despite being told by hierarchy we should Not do this.

Who's right in this instance? We do have G39 BTW

Doesn't look as if your question been answered.

When testing for a Ze on a domestic property, I would take my reading from the incoming supply to the main switch of a CU. Unless I was replacing the tails, or had to isolate the supply using the main fuse, I would not cut the seal. Therefore I would not be able to verify the size of the main fuse. I would document what was written on the fuse carrier, noting I had not inspected the fuse itself.

Is there a particular reason, you need to identify the size & rating of the main fuse, in your case?

In my case my DNO allows Scheme members to remove their main fuse (with appropriate PPE), and reapply a temporary seal, provided by them and furnishing them with the details. Not all DNO's do though.

 

[davesparks]

I work as a Maintenance Electrician on Highways (not street lighting). I won't go into great detail but we have cabinets with DNO fuses and a meter then normally a two pole isolator. I've been doing this role for almost two years, We were transferred / Tuped across to another firm who tendered for the contract. One of the guys who has far more Network testing experience than me (though doesn't have 2391), was insisting a number of months ago that we needed to pull the DNO fuse (cutting seals) to get a true ZE and determine the Fuse rating. Up until then I'd been Testing ZE at the closest point to the meter with Earth removed to test towards the supply and noting the Fuse rating of the carrier (most are sealed anyway), generally the Earth is 16mm or 25mm and is two feet long so of negligible resistance. He still keeps insisting we remove fuses despite being told by hierarchy we should Not do this.

Who's right in this instance? We do have G39 BTW

Ze is taken at the consumers supply terminals, this is the point at which the consumers tails connect to the suppliers equipment. This will either be the outgoing side of the meter or the isolator.

 

[littlespark]

Ze is taken at the consumers supply terminals, this is the point at which the consumers tails connect to the suppliers equipment. This will either be the outgoing side of the meter or the isolator.

Not the outgoing side of the meter. That’s usually sealed.
Outgoing side of isolator if they have one, or supply side of mainswitch, or an accessible Henley if there’s no seals.

basically, if you need to cut a seal to access a terminal, you don’t do it.
likewise cutting a seal and pulling a fuse just to find out the size. If it’s not printed on a sticker, then it’s “not verified”

 

[davesparks]

Not the outgoing side of the meter. That’s usually sealed.
Outgoing side of isolator if they have one, or supply side of mainswitch, or an accessible Henley if there’s no seals.

basically, if you need to cut a seal to access a terminal, you don’t do it.
likewise cutting a seal and pulling a fuse just to find out the size. If it’s not printed on a sticker, then it’s “not verified”

I'm used to seeing a lot of self connect meters, the outgoing terminals are not sealed and the meter has a built in isolator.

 

[Chivers]

There's normally an Isolator at the top of our Local equipment and then a Block Terminal on a Din rail. So I never cut the seal to measure the ZE, just wanted others opinions as my colleague was insistent we should cut the seal and remove the fuse! I measure it from the block terminal as the resistance of the 25mm copper upstream is negligible especially as it's barely two feet long. If the measurement is too high then Isolator top then over to the DNO...

 

[Simon47]

IMO you are right, and anyone suggesting that they "must" cut the seals to measure at the DNO terminals is just plain wrong (as well as acting both illegally and dangerously).
Firstly, as you point out, a couple of feet of 25mm2 cable will have less effect on readings than teh variability of the contact resistance of your measuring leads. Unless you were to employ precisions 4-contact measuring gear, then that few feet of cable reaslly is insignificant.
Secondly, we are normally measuring Ze (and Zs) so that we can calculate a maximum value for R1+R2 and R1+Rn in order to ensure correct operation of protective devices. If you are so paranoid as to want to account for those 25mm2 tails, then you need to include them in the calculation - and measuring Z at your main switch is the easiest way of doing that. So really, an insistence of measuring it at the DNO terminals is wrong in the technical sense as it's excluding part of the circuit from the measurements and calculations. Being pedantic, you could measure Z at the DNO terminals, then calculate the resistance of a few feet of tail, and add the 2 together to get Zdb