LABC don't think I'm qualified to wire my house

[David Prosser]

Hi any idea what would consist of demonstrating you are suitable qualified to BS 7678 17th Edition.

As I have approach my LABC to notify them of my intention to rewire my house including a new extension. I have sent them copies of my: C&G 2360 Lv1&2, C&G 2382(BS7671) Lv3, and C&G 2391 Lv3. I have a number of other qualifications but they are little to do with domestic installing.

This is the reply I have received.

Good afternoon


I can confirm from the information you have provided it does not demonstrate that you are qualified to BS7671iet wiring regulations 17th Edition.


In this instance the fee will be £348.00 (inc.vat)

If you think this is reasonable then can you point me in the right direction of getting the necessary qualifications.

I have asked for an explanation from LABC only to be told "the surveyor look at your qualifications and said you are not trained to 17th edition"

Thanks

 

[Andy78]

When did you do your 2382 ? They may require an up to date qualification. This would be the only thing that proves you are "trained to 17th edition" that I can think they may be on about.

 

[David Prosser]

2381 was 16th edition, 2382 is 17th edition. Anyway I did it 2009. 17th Edition start January 2008 in force July 2008.

 

[Darkwood]

Just on a jovial note, getting the BS standards correct will go a far way to showing you know what you are talking about BS7678 won't cut the mustard unless you are trying to determine the mercury level in natural gas?

.... BS7671 may be what you intended to write

 

[Andy78]

I'd get back to them on that then. I feel it is unlikely they would demand a totally up to date version of the 2382. Most in the industry who are carrying out work and that are members of schemes will be on an earlier version of the 2382.

 

[Wilko]

Perhaps take a deep breath and try for a meeting with the Surveyor to chat - maybe taking your BYB, test kit etc ?

 

[David Prosser]

Just on a jovial note, getting the BS standards correct will go a far way to showing you know what you are talking about BS7678 won't cut the mustard unless you are trying to determine the mercury level in natural gas?

.... BS7671 may be what you intended to write

Hmm thanks for pointing out my mistake, yes as you can see it was 7671 however I do have EX09 &10 so maybe I do need to know the mercury content of our gas !!

 

[rolyberkin]

It looks like they are sayng you are not a member of a part P scheme, probably not about qualifications, the only way you can avoid the building control fee is if you are a member of a scheme, not by being qualified. They are probably quite happy for you to do the work, just want you to pay for the privilege Even if you have a BC notice for the extension it wouldn't cover you for the complete rewire.

 

[David Prosser]

Perhaps take a deep breath and try for a meeting with the Surveyor to chat - maybe taking your BYB, test kit etc ?

Yes I have tried for a meeting with surveyor, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious and going to look a wally when I challenged the decision.

 

[Midwest]

I think this is the problem with LBC making judgemental decisions on whether someone is competent enough to be an electrician. Show them your in a scheme, and no questions are asked. Give them a set of qualifications (from here certainly looks as if you are suitably qualified), and they don't really have the skills or knowledge to decide.

You could join a scheme, Stroma, cheaper by £60 and you could some private jobs to earn some more money for the rest of the year!

 

[rolyberkin]

Have you got the building control notice for the extension yet? If not add the rewire to that and pay one fee for the whole lot.

 

[David Prosser]

Have tried that first told by LABC need two separate BCN.
Seams like money over service to me.

 

[mhar]

I would point out the irony that they will be requiring a 2391 qualified (or suitably experienced) person to check your work, a qualification you hold

 

[Octopus]

It would be cheaper to join Stroma!

 

[Midwest]

Terrible echo in here . Think your first option, is to sit down with the decision maker (as you suggested), along with your qualifications and seek clarifications on their decision. Ultimately, there may be an appeals process, but that would be even more costly.

 

[Pete999]

Are there any other issues other that the assumed discrepancies regarding your qualifications that LABC are questioning?

 

[Diddy]

If there is no appeal then this is one of them cases where I wish some board millionaire electrician takes their council to court. This insistence that you can only notify your work if you are registered in a scheme is just full of holes and begging to be tested in a court under lets say "restricting trade" or some other legal avenue. It is one thing having a proper scheme recognized through industry as the "standard" such as gas safe, which links your qualifications with practical exams ect ect...but this is just a mish mash misunderstood waste of time.
Ironic that the above qualifications in all likelyhood took several years to achieve but you could get someone with zero experience that "could" in theory be more "qualified" to do this work within the space of 2 months in one of these intensive courses.....the world has gone mad.....MAD I Tell YA !!!

 

[David Prosser]

Are there any other issues other that the assumed discrepancies regarding your qualifications that LABC are questioning?

I have no idea what you mean. Maybe you could elaborate on what you think could be a problem.
I have asked what other people think I may be missing so if you can shed some light on this it could really help.
I have copied and pasted their reply so you can read into it what you like, that's all the information I have, no smoking guns, no dodgy rewires or house fires just what I have put in the original post.
As for all the building work the builder has notified LABC and been inspected over the last couple of check points with no problems, which is no great surprise as he is a top notch builder who started of the job with " I don't ---- about with electrics, that ---- can kill you". So he had my vote strait away !

 

[rolyberkin]

It is one thing having a proper scheme recognized through industry as the "standard" such as gas safe, which links your qualifications with practical exams ect ect...but this is just a mish mash misunderstood waste of time.

For example they could call it part P of the building regulations and enact it in legislation!

 

[sparksburnout]

If there is no appeal then this is one of them cases where I wish some board millionaire electrician takes their council to court. This insistence that you can only notify your work if you are registered in a scheme is just full of holes and begging to be tested in a court under lets say "restricting trade" or some other legal avenue. It is one thing having a proper scheme recognized through industry as the "standard" such as gas safe, which links your qualifications with practical exams ect ect...but this is just a mish mash misunderstood waste of time.
Ironic that the above qualifications in all likelyhood took several years to achieve but you could get someone with zero experience that "could" in theory be more "qualified" to do this work within the space of 2 months in one of these intensive courses.....the world has gone mad.....MAD I Tell YA !!!

Sorry mate you are talking out of your proverbial. The rules are very clear, you have two choices. 1. You put in a building control application, do the work (to BS7671), then get it tested and passed by the councils appointed employee or contractor, or 2. You get a person who is part of a CPS to do it and notify via their scheme. Someone with "zero experience" or with qualifications acquired in "two months" would NOT be allowed in a scheme. And BTW it is "bored", not "board" electrician, unless you are talking about one working for a "board", on the side.

 

[David Prosser]

Sorry mate you are talking out of your proverbial. The rules are very clear, you have two choices. 1. You put in a building control application, do the work (to BS7671), then get it tested and passed by the councils appointed employee or contractor, or 2. You get a person who is part of a CPS to do it and notify via their scheme. Someone with "zero experience" or with qualifications acquired in "two months" would NOT be allowed in a scheme. And BTW it is "bored", not "board" electrician, unless you are talking about one working for a "board", on the side.

3 options actually (although I agree with the general sentiment of your post) you also have the option I was after of providing qualifications to LABC and having it approved for a fee.

 

[rolyberkin]

I am truly amazed that on an electricians forum there are so many people who simply do not know the legislation which governs notifiable work and the building regulations.

 

[rolyberkin]

3 options actually (although I agree with the general sentiment of your post) you also have the option I was after of providing qualifications to LABC and having it approved for a fee.

That is what you are being quoted for, they will still charge you the same whether you have it tested and inspected or not by their contractor, they have set fees which will be on their website, it is a bit of a con but it does draw a line in the sand. My brother in law runs building control for about four or five unified councils. His favourite quote was 'if Trevor Linsley wasn't in a scheme he would have to pay the fee'. I have in the past been in the same boat as I do a lot of building work. You have to weight up the pros and cons of joining a scheme, if you go down that route you will then need public liabilities insurance, and a hole raft of paperwork and books etc etc. Do you not know someone who is in a scheme who you can work with to get it done cheaper than the LABC fees?

 

[7029 dave]

Tin Hat firmly on, if it is your own place with the quals you have . Just do the bloody job test and write your own cert out.? You can download all the test sheets etc and EIC.

 

[sparksburnout]

3 options actually (although I agree with the general sentiment of your post) you also have the option I was after of providing qualifications to LABC and having it approved for a fee.

No you don't! If you are not part of a scheme they will get either their contractor or employee to come and certify it.

 

[David Prosser]

Sorry you are 100% wrong. The fee quoted is for as noted in original post "not qualified" the fee for "qualified" is £160. This is why I'm not happy with the LABC attitude. If it was simply NIC NAPIT or pay up etc then I would just get one of my contractors to certify it for me. But being an honest guy who with years of experience and the required qualifications thought I would just notify them and welcome them over if they wanted to check any time on the work progress

 

[sparksburnout]

Right OK, like Westie said its a bit difficult to comprehend but these are the facts and your options:

1. You are rewiring your house. This is notifiable under part "P" of the BUILDING REGULATIONS, to/via your local building control.
2. You have 2 ways of doing this, you can either notify it yourself via your government approved scheme, assuming you are a member of one, or you can submit a building notice to your local council, if you are not. Your qualifications are irrelevant.
3. If you do the latter, they will charge you a fee and deal with it in the same way as if you were building your own house extension. They will come and inspect the work at specified stages, using either their own employee or contractor.
4. When they are happy with the job they will sign it off, in the same way you could LEGALLY sign it off if you were a member of a scheme. This is to satisfy part "P" of the building regulations, it has nothing to do with your ability or otherwise to produce a BS7671 certificate.
You can welcome them over for a brew and a chat all you like but you are not in a LEGAL position to do anything else.

 

[rolyberkin]

Tin Hat firmly on, if it is your own place with the quals you have . Just do the bloody job test and write your own cert out.? You can download all the test sheets etc and EIC.

Fine until you come to sell the house and you don't have building control sign off and the buyers solicitor asks you for it!

 

[David Prosser]

Reply from LABC after initial enquiry. Apologies fees are £190 not £160.

Dear David


Thank you for your email.


Yes if you can provide scanned copies that would be great and we can confirm whether this is sufficient.


The cost is as follows:


£190.00 (inc.vat) – qualified but not a member of a Competent Persons Scheme


£348.00 (inc.vat) – not qualified and not a member of a Competent Persons Scheme


This fee is required on top of the fee required for an extension.


I trust this answers your query.

So to clarify the are two routes outside of the more traditional scheme registered electrician.

 

[sparksburnout]

Well, that reply from your local council makes no sense. What they are undertaking, if they require you to submit a building notice, is to conduct the equivalent of 3rd party certification. This means THEY or their CONTRACTOR has to inspect the work at specified stages. What difference can it make if they or their contractor have not seen the first fix, for example? Given the fact they have indicated that you are not in a position to act as a "qualified person", I would suggest they mean you are not able to undertake 3rd party certification, in other words, act as their contractor?
I would seek a higher authority in the council to verify this, it sounds very odd to me.

 

[Toneyz]

Just to add to the above David is right in his post I had a good coversation with the head of LABC at Northampton B.C a few years ago they do the same the fee is less if you can prove that you are qualified as they do not inspect at every stage this is ok if a one off for example when our local NICEIC inspector rewired his own house however if you are doing any more for the cost go through Stroma etc.The head of LABC also told me the information does on the deeds for the house.When I did a house for a mate under Market Harborough LABC they only sent out a general building inspector for it, this is why the part P got changed to allow 3rd party.

 

[Diddy]

Sorry mate you are talking out of your proverbial. The rules are very clear, you have two choices. 1. You put in a building control application, do the work (to BS7671), then get it tested and passed by the councils appointed employee or contractor, or 2. You get a person who is part of a CPS to do it and notify via their scheme. Someone with "zero experience" or with qualifications acquired in "two months" would NOT be allowed in a scheme. And BTW it is "bored", not "board" electrician, unless you are talking about one working for a "board", on the side.

Nice way to put it lol. Ok I live and do most of my work in Scotland.....I do "some" contracting when I am living in kent...I lead a double life lol..well it feels like it.
So If I may try to address your points
1. I was under the impression that with the correct qualifications you could do the notifying by yourself and pay the LABC a reduced fee (as you have effectively done the sign off yourself)...this seems to be borne out at the end of this thread (as of 11pm)...I can also say from reading this very forum that some councils will not budge on the need for a scheme member to do the notifying so always charge the full fee....But some do use some common sense.
2. Someone with zero experience CAN and do register for these schemes each and every day - Here you go fill your boots Bronze: Domestic Installer Course - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/domestic-installer-course

For example they could call it part P of the building regulations and enact it in legislation!

And how many part P prosecutions have there been so far ? How many people fail their assessment or reassessment ? How many contractors have been kicked off any of the CPC's for poor standards or otherwise ?
This stuff has been discussed in parliament - the system is not fit for purpose. Compare it to a system such as Gas safe and then you have something worth having.

Im surprised at the reaction of some on here. Times have certainly changed lol. Go back a couple of years on here and most were in complete agreement that the schemes were/are just a man in the middle money grabbing leech....but some would have them seen as the guardians of the trade now...pretty laughable in my humble opinion.

 

[Toneyz]

I have said all the way along it should have gone like gas safe you generally don't get people messing with gas fires etc like you do with electrics

 

[sparksburnout]

I am not saying I agree with the situation, but that is how it is. People DO get refused admission, there was a guy on here just the other day. I believe you need at least a level 3 qual now, not some 3 week bronze rubbish as suggested to become a scheme member. Personally, I don't see how a complete novice could do a short course and get past any assessment I have ever had from any of my former schemes. You might be right about some areas, but as far as I am aware, from general information and from chatting to my local BCO, they adopt the simple rules I outlined.

 

[David Prosser]

You might be right about some areas, but as far as I am aware, from general information and from chatting to my local BCO, they adopt the simple rules I outlined.

Ok then so back to my original post (and with the "FACT CAPS KEY" now in bed for the night). I was just after what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition. I believe I meet those requirements so should have a decent chance of getting the fee reduced with my LABC.

I was not after a general discussion over part P and it's constituents. I may start a new thread over the "Part P v Gas Safe" as I have feet in both camps in my day to day work.

 

[rolyberkin]

About time we had a decent thread on here for a good old discussion, anyway as you were, a friend of mine is going to put an electric supply in his shed..................................................!

 

[David Prosser]

About time we had a decent thread on here for a good old discussion, anyway as you were, a friend of mine is going to put an electric supply in his shed..................................................!

Do you think he will exporting PME or now Brexit has come along he won't be able to afford the license.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I was just after what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition

If by that you mean the C&G 2382-xx exam then this is by no means a qualification as an electrician.
All it means is that you can find your way round the regs book.

All that you have to do to pass the exam is:

• turn up for the exam on the right day
• spell your name correctly
• be able to read the questions and look for the answer in the book

its a multiple guess exam, if you just pressed answer (a) for every question you would still score 33%

that does not make you, or anybody an electrician.

 

[David Prosser]

If by that you mean the C&G 2382-xx exam then this is by no means a qualification as an electrician.
All it means is that you can find your way round the regs book.

All that you have to do to pass the exam is:

• turn up for the exam on the right day
• spell your name correctly
• be able to read the questions and look for the answer in the book

its a multiple guess exam, if you just pressed answer (a) for every question you would still score 33%

that does not make you, or anybody an electrician.

well thanks for that, however I believe it was over a varying number of choices in each question not just 3 options a go (may even be negative marking don't know 100% is 100%), that though is irrelevant as to the validity of the qualification. However you should try to read the posts in there entirety not just come out with glib assumptions as to peoples qualifications, abilities or experience.

 

[davesparks]

I was under the impression that if the work is part of building works which are subject to planning permission and normal building regs inspections by labc then they are not legally allowed to charge any more than the standard building regs inspection for any part of the building regs (part P is just one of many parts of the building regs)

This came from my father when he was still working as a building inspector for our labc.

 

[Pete999]

I have no idea what you mean. Maybe you could elaborate on what you think could be a problem.
I have asked what other people think I may be missing so if you can shed some light on this it could really help.
I have copied and pasted their reply so you can read into it what you like, that's all the information I have, no smoking guns, no dodgy rewires or house fires just what I have put in the original post.
As for all the building work the builder has notified LABC and been inspected over the last couple of check points with no problems, which is no great surprise as he is a top notch builder who started of the job with " I don't **** about with electrics, that **** can kill you". So he had my vote strait away !

Can't see the document you say you have pasted.

 

[7029 dave]

If there is no appeal then this is one of them cases where I wish some board millionaire electrician takes their council to court. This insistence that you can only notify your work if you are registered in a scheme is just full of holes and begging to be tested in a court under lets say "restricting trade" or some other legal avenue. It is one thing having a proper scheme recognized through industry as the "standard" such as gas safe, which links your qualifications with practical exams ect ect...but this is just a mish mash misunderstood waste of time.
Ironic that the above qualifications in all likelyhood took several years to achieve but you could get someone with zero experience that "could" in theory be more "qualified" to do this work within the space of 2 months in one of these intensive courses.....the world has gone mad.....MAD I Tell YA !!!

MAD, ITS ONE BIG CON.

 

[David Prosser]

Can't see the document you say you have pasted.

It's the bit in itallics on original post. Start "this is there reply".

 

[Taylortwocities]

However you should try to read the posts in there entirety not just come out with glib assumptions as to peoples qualifications, abilities or experience.

Yes, but I was responding specifically to your question as to "what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition". It was not a general comment on anybody's particular qualifications or lack of them.

I do have sympathy with your predicament, but please undersatnd that there most of us (me included) spend an inordinate amount of money every year to be a member of a Competent Person Scheme together with all of the things that it entails. With time for assessments, fees, manadtory insurance and everything included I estimate is costs me a grand a year.
There are so many people who come on to electricians forums and try and find a wangle, or a back door, to try and get around the notification process.

I absolutley agree with the principles of Part P, and for the reasons that it needed to be introduced. In my opinion the notification process has been watered down so much since it was originally introduced as to be near on pointless now. As noted above above it should have been imposed properly much as CORGI/GasSafe has been.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I was under the impression that if the work is part of building works which are subject to planning permission and normal building regs inspections by labc then they are not legally allowed to charge any more than the standard building regs inspection for any part of the building regs (part P is just one of many parts of the building regs)

I agree, but maybe the OP can elaborate. My guess is that one application was made for the building of the extension and associated works and a separate one was made for the rewire. In that case its two cases = two fees.

If the original application was for a whole house refurbishment to include new CU, rewire and the building of the extension then it should only have bene one building notice.

 

[David Prosser]

I agree, but maybe the OP can elaborate. My guess is that one application was made for the building of the extension and associated works and a separate one was made for the rewire. In that case its two cases = two fees.

If the original application was for a whole house refurbishment to include new CU, rewire and the building of the extension then it should only have bene one building notice.

If you look at the reply I recieved the LABC have told me it is not included. This is as you concluded the result of two lots of aplications due to poor advice from LABC in the first place.

 

[David Prosser]

Yes, but I was responding specifically to your question as to "what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition". It was not a general comment on anybody's particular qualifications or lack of them.



I do have sympathy with your predicament, but please undersatnd that there most of us (me included) spend an inordinate amount of money every year to be a member of a Competent Person Scheme together with all of the things that it entails. With time for assessments, fees, manadtory insurance and everything included I estimate is costs me a grand a year.
There are so many people who come on to electricians forums and try and find a wangle, or a back door, to try and get around the notification process.

I absolutley agree with the principles of Part P, and for the reasons that it needed to be introduced. In my opinion the notification process has been watered down so much since it was originally introduced as to be near on pointless now. As noted above above it should have been imposed properly much as CORGI/GasSafe has been.

I'm pretty sure I'm not trying to wangle my way around the notification process, rather more trying to go fully through the process.

BS7671 covers more than just domestic installations so someone is not a member of a scheme has very little to do with "qualified to BS7671 17th edition".

 

[sparksburnout]

I still don't get how different councils can adopt different procedures. Surely, if they don't use their own employee or contractor to inspect the work, then if anyone else does this for them (other than someone registered on a CPS doing it from scratch), we are talking 3rd party certification? In which case, the work has to be inspected at prescribed stages. I don't see how this can be partly met by them using someone to "assist" the process, based on their degree of qualification, as the council interpret it?

 

[Pete999]

Hi any idea what would consist of demonstrating you are suitable qualified to BS 7678 17th Edition.

As I have approach my LABC to notify them of my intention to rewire my house including a new extension. I have sent them copies of my: C&G 2360 Lv1&2, C&G 2382(BS7671) Lv3, and C&G 2391 Lv3. I have a number of other qualifications but they are little to do with domestic installing.

This is the reply I have received.

Good afternoon


I can confirm from the information you have provided it does not demonstrate that you are qualified to BS7671iet wiring regulations 17th Edition.


In this instance the fee will be £348.00 (inc.vat)

If you think this is reasonable then can you point me in the right direction of getting the necessary qualifications.

I have asked for an explanation from LABC only to be told "the surveyor look at your qualifications and said you are not trained to 17th edition"

Thanks

As I understand it C&G 2360 is no longer a recognised qualification, 2391 has been superseded by more updated qualifications, so it looks to me (I could be wrong) that the only up to date qual you have is BS7671 17th edition update, which as it has been sai before does not qualify you as a fully trained Electrician. I'm sure there are other people who can agree or disagree, may be that is the reason they have said what they did. When I was working my company sent everybody and their Dog on the 17th, most passed, those that did then considered themselves as Electricians, which, of course as we all know is total carp, sorry to be so blunt, but that's how it is.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I think the general consensus is that you need to have an NVQ to be "qualified", however, I am sure there are loads of electricians that don't have the NVQ but have been in the trade for many years and would also class themselves as qualified. I'm not to interested in what the scams say, so for me, the closest thing to an authority would be JIB.

Cheer

Jay